4 ms·

Unsure why the post is downvoted, this point of view is really interesting. Could you link some reference materials to explore this more?

mrtksn 4y ago
I think the topic is quite nebulous but I recall some articles on these issues here on HN that reached the front page. I recall something about historical ratio of the non-working elites being about the same and societies crumbling over that threshold.
- GoldenRacer 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction
joaonmatos 4y ago
I guess you can read “Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism” by V.I. Lenin to explore the topic more
mandmandam 4y ago
I am downvoting because the comment acts as if it's a mystery where all the wealth gains in productivity have gone. It is NOT a fucking mystery, and I'm outraged that so, so many people are or act oblivious to the obscenely obvious cause. (Since it's not actually obvious to everyone, thanks to shit education and propaganda, the uber-wealthy have hoovered up the gains in productivity and kept it to themselves.) It's very clear by looking at the numbers [0], and it's outrageous to ignore this factor and blame a slightly older population. [0] - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/productivity-workforce-america-united-states-wages-stagnate https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/productivity-workforc...
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  And no one cares about your diatribe or outrage. The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Always, for all time this is what happens in society. Don't care about your one example of some communist paradise that was great.
  - feet 4y ago
    >The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Citations required I do not agree whatsoever, just because you don't have the imagination to come up with a better system for organizing labor and resources doesn't mean it isn't possible
    - heretogetout 4y ago
      How would you organize labor and resources such that there is no elite class? How do you enforce whatever rules are required and ensure that those enforcers don't become the elite themselves (if nobody else..)?
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      I'm not holding my breath. As of yet, no one has had the imagination. This has become a fav piece of rhetoric by ancoms who believe complex supply lines, infrastructure and essential services could be maintained, let alone improved upon, with a "flat hierarchy" society doing away with representative democracy. No one can take that seriously. The universe hates a vacuum and you can be sure that, as in the past, if goons have an opening to seize power under the guise of Communism, with their party being the only legitimate, then they will. Removing checks and balances will do that.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - upsidesinclude 4y ago
      Citations aren't required, a basic knowledge of history, though, that is required and what you lack. The idea, your idea is that there's a way to tell everybody what to do to make all the things work and everyone will follow the plan and like their spot in it. You lack the imagination to recognize individual will let alone the fact that society works because there are millions of experts making choices everyday. No central planning board to 'organize' 'labor' can accomplish that or house the knowledge of these individuals
- GoldenRacer 4y ago
  That could fix a lot of issues if you just look at America in isolation. The truth is though, even with the insane wealth distribution in America, the middle class here still makes a good amount of money. I regularly see people on here scoff at low six figure salaries. Those salaries are virtually impossible in many parts of the world and the only reason they're so easy in America is because we are exploiting developing nations the same way the ultra wealthy here are exploiting us. If we actually tried to redistribute the wealth that the ultra wealthy has accumulated, it would go to developing nations and not the hackernews crowd.

mrtksn 4y ago

I think the topic is quite nebulous but I recall some articles on these issues here on HN that reached the front page. I recall something about historical ratio of the non-working elites being about the same and societies crumbling over that threshold.

GoldenRacer 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction

joaonmatos 4y ago

I guess you can read “Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism” by V.I. Lenin to explore the topic more

mandmandam 4y ago

I am downvoting because the comment acts as if it's a mystery where all the wealth gains in productivity have gone. It is NOT a fucking mystery, and I'm outraged that so, so many people are or act oblivious to the obscenely obvious cause. (Since it's not actually obvious to everyone, thanks to shit education and propaganda, the uber-wealthy have hoovered up the gains in productivity and kept it to themselves.) It's very clear by looking at the numbers [0], and it's outrageous to ignore this factor and blame a slightly older population. [0] - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/productivity-workforce-america-united-states-wages-stagnate https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/productivity-workforc...

upsidesinclude 4y ago
And no one cares about your diatribe or outrage. The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Always, for all time this is what happens in society. Don't care about your one example of some communist paradise that was great.
- feet 4y ago
  >The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Citations required I do not agree whatsoever, just because you don't have the imagination to come up with a better system for organizing labor and resources doesn't mean it isn't possible
  - heretogetout 4y ago
    How would you organize labor and resources such that there is no elite class? How do you enforce whatever rules are required and ensure that those enforcers don't become the elite themselves (if nobody else..)?
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    I'm not holding my breath. As of yet, no one has had the imagination. This has become a fav piece of rhetoric by ancoms who believe complex supply lines, infrastructure and essential services could be maintained, let alone improved upon, with a "flat hierarchy" society doing away with representative democracy. No one can take that seriously. The universe hates a vacuum and you can be sure that, as in the past, if goons have an opening to seize power under the guise of Communism, with their party being the only legitimate, then they will. Removing checks and balances will do that.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - upsidesinclude 4y ago
    Citations aren't required, a basic knowledge of history, though, that is required and what you lack. The idea, your idea is that there's a way to tell everybody what to do to make all the things work and everyone will follow the plan and like their spot in it. You lack the imagination to recognize individual will let alone the fact that society works because there are millions of experts making choices everyday. No central planning board to 'organize' 'labor' can accomplish that or house the knowledge of these individuals
GoldenRacer 4y ago
That could fix a lot of issues if you just look at America in isolation. The truth is though, even with the insane wealth distribution in America, the middle class here still makes a good amount of money. I regularly see people on here scoff at low six figure salaries. Those salaries are virtually impossible in many parts of the world and the only reason they're so easy in America is because we are exploiting developing nations the same way the ultra wealthy here are exploiting us. If we actually tried to redistribute the wealth that the ultra wealthy has accumulated, it would go to developing nations and not the hackernews crowd.