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> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain
by busterarm 4y ago
> Corporations bargain collectively by default;
Only with unskilled labor.
My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks.
I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.
- xibo9 4y ago"unskilled labor" What an extremely elitist phrase.
- totony 4y agoDo you have a better term for it?
- goodpoint 4y ago"labor" and "job"
- triceratops 4y agoHigh-paid/low-paid labor?
- totony 4y agoSkill is a proxy for supply whereas pay is a proxy of supply-demand. It might actually be a better term, since even if you do very skilled labor, you would prefer an union if there was no demand.
- bpodgursky 4y agoThis is a terrible substitute, since there are a lot of low-paid high-skill jobs (ex, graduate students, TAs). There's a meaningful labor liquidity difference between a job that takes 2 years of training and 2 days of training, and it's important for policy decisions. Sorry?
- totony 4y agoBut aren't those low-paid, high skill jobs likely to be unionized? Only issue I see with that term is that union affects pay.
- bpodgursky 4y agoI am not trying to argue about the merits of unionization. I am saying that "low-skill" is a meaningful term we should not drop.
- noSyncCloud 4y agoMore exploited | Less exploited?
- busterarm 4y agoBack in my younger years, I worked a lot of unskilled-labor type jobs. The starkest difference that I recognize between people in those jobs and people in my career is that in the former people have a hard time showing up to work on-time or at all and in the latter everyone is pretty tuned in and works hard. It only hit me late in life that success in life really can be just as simple as showing up. I guess what I would say here is that the kind of people who feel that they need collective bargaining agreements probably overlaps quite strongly with the group of people that have a hard time showing up.
- andrepd 4y agoYes grampa, the disadvantaged kid who never got a chance to learn a "skilled job" should just pull himself by the bootstraps, show up, give the manager a firm handshake. Yawn.
- busterarm 4y agoI worked shitty jobs into my 30s before I landed on my career. Suck it up. Also you're missing the point. I didn't say anything about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. You DON'T have to work hard. I said just show up. Every day. On time. That's literally the one thing I've seen in life that differentiates people who are successful in life from those who aren't. And I know bank security guards who show up every day and live fulfilled happy successful lives. What I was saying was that commonly you'll find in unskilled labor jobs are people who don't show up every day. Not all of them but a large number. They won't do the minimum to succeed in life. They need the coddling.
- andrepd 4y agoI'm sorry, but your impression is wrong. The biggest correlate with income is not your punctuality, not hours worked, not productivity. It is this: your parents' income. This directly contradicts the (popular) view that we live in a meritocracy where all you have to do to succeed is work hard and be smart and apply yourself. > What I was saying was that commonly you'll find in unskilled labor jobs are people who don't show up every day. Mind sharing the study of workplace absenteeism that you're basing that opinion on?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> Do you have a better term for it? Apparently the euphemism treadmill is on low-wage labor [1]. Which is dumb, since it literally though not conceptually covers graduate students. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unskilled-labor.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unskilled-labor.asp
- moooo99 4y ago> What an extremely elitist phrase. This! I hate when people talk about "unskilled labor" because there is no such thing. There definitely is work that requires less training than other jobs, but there is no such thing as unskilled labor.
- busterarm 4y agoYou're certainly glad that your uber driver can't be suddenly promoted to airline pilot though, right?
- goodpoint 4y agoSo what? Besides, driving a car safely is very much a skill. It's life-saving by definition.
- bigbillheck 4y agoUber drivers have to pass an examination by the state which usually requires many hours of lessons and supervised training. How is that unskilled?
- busterarm 4y ago85% of Americans have a driver's license too.
- bigbillheck 4y agoA skill being common doesn't make it no longer a skill.
- busterarm 4y agoBut common skills don't command elevated wages.
- bigbillheck 4y ago
- busterarm 4y agoIt's not elitist. Some skills are effectively commoditized. They don't require specialized, rare knowledge, years of training and constant personal investment. If you pick a job that literally anyone else can learn to do in a few days, then the cap on your salary and lack of bargaining power is on you.
- foobarian 4y agoI mean, it is elitist. Is that inaccurate? What I don't get is why that is supposed to be bad. It's just a fact.
- function_seven 4y ago"Elitist" is almost always used as a pejorative. Just looking up the definition of it points to social power, wealth, class hierarchies, etc. It is rarely used to just mean "smart, capable, skilled" in a neutral sense. The comment above was clearly using it as a pejorative.
- sershe 4y agoThank you for complimenting the above insightful comment! :)
- adam_arthur 4y agoI wouldn't divide it between skilled and unskilled. It's more a product of supply and demand. Unskilled labor can have decent bargaining power if there's a shortage of unskilled labor. It just so happens that there tends to more frequently be shortages of skilled labor
- bjornsing 4y ago> Unskilled labor can have decent bargaining power if there's a shortage of unskilled labor. Not really, because that’s the definition of unskilled: it takes no special skills to do the job. So if there’s a shortage and wages go up dramatically then skilled labor can take its place. (The opposite is not possible/ advisable though.)
- adam_arthur 4y agoBeing willing to do the job is a hurdle on its own. And there is variance between employee quality for "unskilled" labor too. E.g. think about customer facing roles and social skills/aptitude. Having all friendly/nice employees can drive greater revenue for a business. Chick fil a and costco are famous for hiring friendly employees, can have meaningful results for the business
- busterarm 4y agoAnd plenty of businesses have gone the other way and decided that the personal touch of being greeted by a human being provides less business value than a computer. E.g., McDonalds, Wendy's, your grocery store.
- pessimizer 4y agoThe no-poach cartel that ruled big tech for like a decade would like to have a word.
- jasonlotito 4y agoPeople like to forget about this. With the way salaries work in this industry, we are all underpaid.
- busterarm 4y agoIf your skillset is sufficiently rare and in-demand than Google/Facebook/Apple aren't your only options for high-paying employment. Heck, I haven't even worked for any of those yet and last I checked at least 2 of them were offering less than what I make for my role.
- adam_arthur 4y agoThat's an oligopoly/cartel, which represents monopoly power on labor demand, and is illegal
- AlexandrB 4y agoDid anyone go to jail over it? No. I doubt anyone was even fired. It was settled for $415 million split 4 ways between the companies involved[1]. So it's "illegal", but in terms of repercussions experienced by the offenders I'd say it's up there with a $150 speeding ticket. https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/apple-google-others-...
- adam_arthur 4y agoThat's a problem with elected officials/regulatory agencies. I'm a strong believer that government's number one priority should be to maintain a competitive market, as in the long run that produces the best outcomes for broader society. Unfortunately they've failed quite badly at it. Especially in regards to big tech. Important to direct ire towards those that are responsible, representatives need to be held accountable
- jasonlotito 4y ago> I bargain for myself, thanks. Judging by that history, you aren't doing so well. Good luck, and hopefully things improve!
- busterarm 4y agoI haven't been part of a union for more than 20 years now. I'm doing great.
- noSyncCloud 4y ago> I bargain for myself, thanks. Well, that's good to know. I guess the rest of the world can stop worrying about themselves since you're taken care of.
- CamperBob2 4y agoHe's saying he doesn't want the choice denied to him, as unionization advocates frequently attempt to justify.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoDemocracy needs no apologies. You are denied choices everyday because society and government have agreed upon those choices. There will always be those upset because they feel their rights are infringed upon.
- busterarm 4y agoAnd the right to determine the terms with with you negotiate away your labor is among the most sacred. Letting others do that for you is much closer to indentured servitude or slavery. The problem with all of these collectivsts' arguments is that they all believe themselves to be in their utopia's social planning committee rather than themselves a laborer. And that's if they made it past the "shoot all the troublemakers" phase of their revolution.
- joshuamorton 4y agoYou're free to work at a non-unionized company, of course, or even found your own.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoWhat you advocate for, not organizing, is what got us to the indentured servitude and slavery current state (US centric of course). Those who can’t recognize that are beyond hope (as they ignore the economic data clearly demonstrating the benefits), and to cater to them or entertain their desire to maintain the status quo helps no one but themselves. Edit: This forum has some sort of empathy deficiency in aggregate.