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Definitely wouldn't want to be part of a union. I represent myself, thanks. Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, but industry wide u

Definitely wouldn't want to be part of a union. I represent myself, thanks. Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, but industry wide unions are effectively a monopoly on labor supply and bad for society. Look no further than the MTA in NYC. Terrible cost overruns and bad governance of the subway system, for what? So employees can clock extra hours and get egregiously overpaid? No thanks. Competitive markets produce societally best outcomes, as is proven time and time again throughout history. Competition applies to labor too, by the way

giantg2 4y ago
Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Yeah, I left for greener pastures and more pay. It's called the free market. Badly run companies will get weak talent and become uncompetitive.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    It doesn't have to be badly run. If 5% are getting screwed over, it won't hurt the company.
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Those 5% can argue for better conditions or leave. If their value is not commensurate with their asks, they won't get it. Both labor supply and demand needs to be competitive for an efficient society. If there's a single employer in town, and lack of mobility for residents, that's a monopoly on labor demand just the same as a union is a monopoly on labor supply
      - giantg2 4y ago
        We currently have people leaving who are being replaced by others with higher salaries and similar contributions. So it's not like it's meritorious. With the information and power imbalance between companies and workers, it seems the companies are already an oligopoly. Unions are the oligopoly on the opposing side to balance that out.
- slillibri 4y ago
  I left because the UFCW wasn’t representing me. People think that unions are simply fair by default but some are really an Animal Farm where all animals are equal, just some are more equal than others.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Yeah, there are bad unions just like bad companies. At least they tend to have contracts when companies don't. I would love to have contracts be required via legislation rather than unions.
    - slillibri 4y ago
      I'm sorry but the contract was screwing me. I worked (decades ago) as a third shift janitor in a 24 hour supermarket. My responsibilities included cleaning the customer and employee restrooms and also cleaning the meat cutting room. My union negotiated maximum hourly wage was less than the starting wage for stockers and cashiers. Why? Because there were maybe 10 janitors per store, whereas there were 100+ stockers and cashiers. So the union represented votes and 10 votes per store amounted to exactly what you think it would. This is why any sort of generic 'tech union' is going to be a failure in my opinion, because if you have 150 developers and 20 QA, for example, where do you think the equality will actually land. People will vote for the common good up to a point. Single occupation unions would possibly work, i.e. a QA union, a Developers union but would introduce other problems. Contracts and unions aren't some magical cure all. Unions are political organizations and come with all the problems that political organizations have.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  >"Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?" I feel like this happens, from time to time, in virtually every company or institution. I know of people who work for public-sector unions and this kind of thing is commonplace there as well.
TulliusCicero 4y ago
> Competition applies to labor too, by the way Yes, which is why unions are great. Corporations bargain collectively by default; each is a large unit, with a lot of resources, composed of many people. Unions allow individuals to bargain collectively, to match corporations in terms of leverage, because few individuals are valuable enough to even come close.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  A union tends to be a monopoly on labor supply in most cases. Not a competitive labor market. Bargaining collectively = monopoly. They can raise wages up to the level of marginal profit of the employing company. Just the same as a company that's a monopoly could raise prices up to marginal value of the good to the customer. If the company can bypass the union to hire others, then it's not a monopoly. But if the union is influential enough this may not be possible. Distorted wages for labor is not good for broader society, only those being paid beyond their individual market power. Raises cost of goods and lowers quality for the rest
  - dontreact 4y ago
    Seems like there is a wide gap between a single company organizing a union for their employers and a monopoly on the labor supply. I would be more convinced by your point if this wasn't one of the first tech unions (according to headline).
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      It depends how it's structured. If Kickstarter can go and hire non union labor, then all is good. If the whole union will quit unanimously if they do that, then they have effective monopoly power over labor for the company. The company will die if they try to bypass the union. In this case they could distort compensation far above what a competitive market would bear, and consumers of Kickstarter eat the cost (e.g. broader society). It's definitely not a free lunch where workers get paid more and there's no societal cost, as many would like to believe
jasonlotito 4y ago
> Competitive markets produce societally best outcomes Define "societally best outcomes". By using the word "societally", you are saying it's not he best outcome for the business, nor is it the best outcome for the employees, nor the best outcome for the customers, but the best outcome for the society at large. Your MTA example shows that a union is great for workers. Please explain. Considering unions are used successfully in many industries and are supported by both major parties in the US, you'll have a difficult time explaining how they are all wrong. > Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, Isn't this the KickStarter union? Also, what's a "Smaller and wide union"? Finally, if unions are so bad, why do many of the largest companies in the world continue to hire from unions?
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  MTA is great for MTA employees. The remaining 10 million or so New Yorkers pay the cost. You can't assess these things in isolation. If the Foxconn factory unionized, you can bet iPhones would cost hundreds of dollars more. Who bears that cost? Consumers of iPhone/society at large (when extrapolating to other businesses)
  - LordDragonfang 4y ago
    >If the Foxconn factory unionized, you can bet iPhones would cost hundreds of dollars more. I'd be willing to bet that they don't. iPhone prices are set at the highest price that Apple determines people are willing to pay, not by the cost to produce it; even the costs that do exist are mostly materials, not labor costs. Labor costs are close to 1% of the sticker price [1]. This is the same as the argument that erroneously claims that if you paid fast food workers well it would lead to $10 big macs, when other countries with much higher wages have comparable prices to ours. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/news/what-it-costs-apple-make-iphone-7-219-parts-5-labor-aapl-snssf/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/what-it-costs-apple-make-i...
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Apple sets prices based on what they think will maximize their profitability. If iPhone cost $1M dollars, there are still people who would buy it. Demand is a curve, not a fixed value.
bjornsing 4y ago
I think unions are great for unskilled labor: When the employer sees employees 100% as a collective, then it makes sense that employees bargain as a collective too. But it goes off the rails when there’s a big difference in productivity between employees, and it gets even worse when managers are allowed to unionize and use strict labor laws to protect them while they play corporate politics. Source: I’m Swedish and have seen it myself from most angles.
deep_merge 4y ago
The MTA is run by New York State, and therefore at the whim of Albany cronyism [1]. This is why it’s so dysfunctional. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the transit unions. Edit: also, there’s a history of multiple private subway companies in NYC, it didn’t work out. 1. https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2021/01/how-the-mta-operates/175306/ https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2021/01/how-the-mta-...
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Yes, combination of the misaligned incentives of government coupled with a public sector union. Given the lack of a profit motive, a well run government needs incentive structures to motivate results towards societally good outcomes. Too bad none of the local, state, federal governments do. Would be easy to institute if the will were there though Edit: To address your edit, the private subway systems failed after NY instituted a price cap on fares, IIRC. And inflation destroyed their profitability over time due to this. Once the subway system was made public, development pretty much halted entirely, outside of an extension every few decades. Subway systems are private in Japan
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    You seem to be magically appending "with a public sector union" to the real cause of the majority of MTA's problems. Sorry, but I don't buy this guilt by association: How does the union cause a significant portion of MTA's problems?
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      It compounds them. Government has no incentive for real results, union leads to highly overpaid employees who are frequently caught not working on the clock. Two separate problems for sure, both bad for the rest
      - cmeacham98 4y ago
        > union leads to highly overpaid employees who are frequently caught not working on the clock Can you demonstrate this, or provide any evidence for it at all? The reason I ask this is because you seem to be automatically assuming Union=Bad with no reason to do so.
granshaw 4y ago
Are you still a consultant as stated in your bio? Wouldn’t mass unionization give you even more of a leg up assuming employers rely on 3rd parties more to avoid the headache? I personally think current market rates for contractors, esp the staff Aug kind, are still lower than they should be, all things considered
My100thaccount 4y ago

giantg2 4y ago

Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?

adam_arthur 4y ago
Yeah, I left for greener pastures and more pay. It's called the free market. Badly run companies will get weak talent and become uncompetitive.
- giantg2 4y ago
  It doesn't have to be badly run. If 5% are getting screwed over, it won't hurt the company.
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    Those 5% can argue for better conditions or leave. If their value is not commensurate with their asks, they won't get it. Both labor supply and demand needs to be competitive for an efficient society. If there's a single employer in town, and lack of mobility for residents, that's a monopoly on labor demand just the same as a union is a monopoly on labor supply
    - giantg2 4y ago
      We currently have people leaving who are being replaced by others with higher salaries and similar contributions. So it's not like it's meritorious. With the information and power imbalance between companies and workers, it seems the companies are already an oligopoly. Unions are the oligopoly on the opposing side to balance that out.
slillibri 4y ago
I left because the UFCW wasn’t representing me. People think that unions are simply fair by default but some are really an Animal Farm where all animals are equal, just some are more equal than others.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Yeah, there are bad unions just like bad companies. At least they tend to have contracts when companies don't. I would love to have contracts be required via legislation rather than unions.
  - slillibri 4y ago
    I'm sorry but the contract was screwing me. I worked (decades ago) as a third shift janitor in a 24 hour supermarket. My responsibilities included cleaning the customer and employee restrooms and also cleaning the meat cutting room. My union negotiated maximum hourly wage was less than the starting wage for stockers and cashiers. Why? Because there were maybe 10 janitors per store, whereas there were 100+ stockers and cashiers. So the union represented votes and 10 votes per store amounted to exactly what you think it would. This is why any sort of generic 'tech union' is going to be a failure in my opinion, because if you have 150 developers and 20 QA, for example, where do you think the equality will actually land. People will vote for the common good up to a point. Single occupation unions would possibly work, i.e. a QA union, a Developers union but would introduce other problems. Contracts and unions aren't some magical cure all. Unions are political organizations and come with all the problems that political organizations have.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?" I feel like this happens, from time to time, in virtually every company or institution. I know of people who work for public-sector unions and this kind of thing is commonplace there as well.

TulliusCicero 4y ago

> Competition applies to labor too, by the way Yes, which is why unions are great. Corporations bargain collectively by default; each is a large unit, with a lot of resources, composed of many people. Unions allow individuals to bargain collectively, to match corporations in terms of leverage, because few individuals are valuable enough to even come close.

adam_arthur 4y ago
A union tends to be a monopoly on labor supply in most cases. Not a competitive labor market. Bargaining collectively = monopoly. They can raise wages up to the level of marginal profit of the employing company. Just the same as a company that's a monopoly could raise prices up to marginal value of the good to the customer. If the company can bypass the union to hire others, then it's not a monopoly. But if the union is influential enough this may not be possible. Distorted wages for labor is not good for broader society, only those being paid beyond their individual market power. Raises cost of goods and lowers quality for the rest
- dontreact 4y ago
  Seems like there is a wide gap between a single company organizing a union for their employers and a monopoly on the labor supply. I would be more convinced by your point if this wasn't one of the first tech unions (according to headline).
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    It depends how it's structured. If Kickstarter can go and hire non union labor, then all is good. If the whole union will quit unanimously if they do that, then they have effective monopoly power over labor for the company. The company will die if they try to bypass the union. In this case they could distort compensation far above what a competitive market would bear, and consumers of Kickstarter eat the cost (e.g. broader society). It's definitely not a free lunch where workers get paid more and there's no societal cost, as many would like to believe

jasonlotito 4y ago

> Competitive markets produce societally best outcomes Define "societally best outcomes". By using the word "societally", you are saying it's not he best outcome for the business, nor is it the best outcome for the employees, nor the best outcome for the customers, but the best outcome for the society at large. Your MTA example shows that a union is great for workers. Please explain. Considering unions are used successfully in many industries and are supported by both major parties in the US, you'll have a difficult time explaining how they are all wrong. > Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, Isn't this the KickStarter union? Also, what's a "Smaller and wide union"? Finally, if unions are so bad, why do many of the largest companies in the world continue to hire from unions?

adam_arthur 4y ago
MTA is great for MTA employees. The remaining 10 million or so New Yorkers pay the cost. You can't assess these things in isolation. If the Foxconn factory unionized, you can bet iPhones would cost hundreds of dollars more. Who bears that cost? Consumers of iPhone/society at large (when extrapolating to other businesses)
- LordDragonfang 4y ago
  >If the Foxconn factory unionized, you can bet iPhones would cost hundreds of dollars more. I'd be willing to bet that they don't. iPhone prices are set at the highest price that Apple determines people are willing to pay, not by the cost to produce it; even the costs that do exist are mostly materials, not labor costs. Labor costs are close to 1% of the sticker price [1]. This is the same as the argument that erroneously claims that if you paid fast food workers well it would lead to $10 big macs, when other countries with much higher wages have comparable prices to ours. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/news/what-it-costs-apple-make-iphone-7-219-parts-5-labor-aapl-snssf/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/what-it-costs-apple-make-i...
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    Apple sets prices based on what they think will maximize their profitability. If iPhone cost $1M dollars, there are still people who would buy it. Demand is a curve, not a fixed value.

bjornsing 4y ago

I think unions are great for unskilled labor: When the employer sees employees 100% as a collective, then it makes sense that employees bargain as a collective too. But it goes off the rails when there’s a big difference in productivity between employees, and it gets even worse when managers are allowed to unionize and use strict labor laws to protect them while they play corporate politics. Source: I’m Swedish and have seen it myself from most angles.

deep_merge 4y ago

The MTA is run by New York State, and therefore at the whim of Albany cronyism [1]. This is why it’s so dysfunctional. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the transit unions. Edit: also, there’s a history of multiple private subway companies in NYC, it didn’t work out. 1. https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2021/01/how-the-mta-operates/175306/ https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2021/01/how-the-mta-...

adam_arthur 4y ago
Yes, combination of the misaligned incentives of government coupled with a public sector union. Given the lack of a profit motive, a well run government needs incentive structures to motivate results towards societally good outcomes. Too bad none of the local, state, federal governments do. Would be easy to institute if the will were there though Edit: To address your edit, the private subway systems failed after NY instituted a price cap on fares, IIRC. And inflation destroyed their profitability over time due to this. Once the subway system was made public, development pretty much halted entirely, outside of an extension every few decades. Subway systems are private in Japan
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  You seem to be magically appending "with a public sector union" to the real cause of the majority of MTA's problems. Sorry, but I don't buy this guilt by association: How does the union cause a significant portion of MTA's problems?
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    It compounds them. Government has no incentive for real results, union leads to highly overpaid employees who are frequently caught not working on the clock. Two separate problems for sure, both bad for the rest
    - cmeacham98 4y ago
      > union leads to highly overpaid employees who are frequently caught not working on the clock Can you demonstrate this, or provide any evidence for it at all? The reason I ask this is because you seem to be automatically assuming Union=Bad with no reason to do so.

granshaw 4y ago

Are you still a consultant as stated in your bio? Wouldn’t mass unionization give you even more of a leg up assuming employers rely on 3rd parties more to avoid the headache? I personally think current market rates for contractors, esp the staff Aug kind, are still lower than they should be, all things considered

My100thaccount 4y ago