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> It's funny to see this dynamic at a time when the federal minimum wage is still stuck at $7.25/hr. If we raise min wage then they'll just fire people to make

> It's funny to see this dynamic at a time when the federal minimum wage is still stuck at $7.25/hr. If we raise min wage then they'll just fire people to make up the cost, not sure it's going to help

SecondTimeAgain 4y ago
So they're going to fire people to make up the cost of not being able to hire people? Maybe I'm not understanding you're comment.
- macinjosh 4y ago
  My understanding is that yes if their growth cannot be maintained because of labor shortages they will have to begin shrinking down to the size the labormarket can bear.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  The comment was insightful. One part of the company raises wages the other fires to increase profitability and reduce headcount. Both groups get a bonus and the group in charge of productivity get culled. Welcome to 2022
  - vlunkr 4y ago
    But then the warehouses are understaffed... Not sure that's a win
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      That only matter for the productivity team and that group gets fired because they are below their metrics. The hiring group just raised wages and they are doing all they can. The profitability group needs to get the numbers back on track and does the firing. Isolated the decisions make sense.
throw0101a 4y ago
> If we raise min wage then they'll just fire people to make up the cost […] Dropping employment due to higher (minimum) wages has mixed-data in empirical studies: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies
- surement 4y ago
  While the comment you're replying to is wrong, these empirical studies are ridiculous. Every price has some elasticity, but the fact is that if a worker earns an employer $8 an hour in revenue, they're not going to pay that worker $9 an hour, and if the minimum wage was greater than $8 an hour, then that worker would be out of a job, thus making $0 an hour. The studies about the price elasticity of labor also don't bother to prove that there are real-world benefits beyond the fact that a higher minimum wage sounds good. Being unemployed is not better than making a low wage.
  - Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
    I tend to agree with this conventional Econ 101 wisdom, but your comment got me wondering if raising the minimum wage would have an effect of driving people to build skills and push harder. I.e. think of a minimum wage as the government saying to workers, ‘Hey, if you want to be part of this economy, you better be at least X productive.’
    - cbsmith 4y ago
      It can also drive businesses to develop models where people are more productive. Productivity isn't just a function of skills and how much people "push", but also how businesses operate.
    - surement 4y ago
      What about teenagers and young adults with no work experience? They are the age groups with the highest levels of unemployment. https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm In fact, very few people earn minimum wage past early adulthood. I don't remember where I got this figure but it was something like 93% of people over the age of 24 make higher than minimum wage. In any case, income is highly correlated with age until retirement ages. https://www.statista.com/statistics/233184/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/233184/median-household-... The motivation to earn skills to make more money is there regardless of minimum wage laws.
idiotsecant 4y ago
When are they going to start firing people to make up for the actual effective minimum wage being above 15 bucks for some time now? where I live is not even a particularly high COL area but fast food places hire for 16-17 an hour. They aren't hiring fewer people, they are struggling to hire, in fact! There is so much demand for workers that those places can't convince them to work for double the minimum wage given the crappy conditions they require. The idea that a rising minimum wage will result in lower employment, given that the current wage is lower in real terms than it was 30 years ago, makes absolutely no sense - the real world evidence is literally all around us right now.
- fugalfervor 4y ago
  Assuming an even distribution of COVID deaths throughout the 50 states, 20,000 workers per state have died in the last two years. I wonder if that has anything to do with the hiring difficulties fast-food restaurants are facing. The number of deaths is probably also higher among those who would be fast-food workers, since the likelihood of death from COVID was correlated with poverty.
  - jimmaswell 4y ago
    How many 80 year olds were working in fast food in 2019?
    - irrational 4y ago
      Most of the people who I knew that died from Covid were not old people. I literally did not know of any old people that died from it. Even my 99 year old grandmother got it and beat it (this was pre-vaccine). She said that she beat the Spanish flu in the 1920s so she would beat Covid in the 2020s, and she did.
    - fugalfervor 4y ago
      This kind of response is why I asked the question, I guess. I don't know the answer!
    - 4y ago

SecondTimeAgain 4y ago

So they're going to fire people to make up the cost of not being able to hire people? Maybe I'm not understanding you're comment.

macinjosh 4y ago
My understanding is that yes if their growth cannot be maintained because of labor shortages they will have to begin shrinking down to the size the labormarket can bear.
ipaddr 4y ago
The comment was insightful. One part of the company raises wages the other fires to increase profitability and reduce headcount. Both groups get a bonus and the group in charge of productivity get culled. Welcome to 2022
- vlunkr 4y ago
  But then the warehouses are understaffed... Not sure that's a win
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    That only matter for the productivity team and that group gets fired because they are below their metrics. The hiring group just raised wages and they are doing all they can. The profitability group needs to get the numbers back on track and does the firing. Isolated the decisions make sense.

throw0101a 4y ago

> If we raise min wage then they'll just fire people to make up the cost […] Dropping employment due to higher (minimum) wages has mixed-data in empirical studies: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies

surement 4y ago
While the comment you're replying to is wrong, these empirical studies are ridiculous. Every price has some elasticity, but the fact is that if a worker earns an employer $8 an hour in revenue, they're not going to pay that worker $9 an hour, and if the minimum wage was greater than $8 an hour, then that worker would be out of a job, thus making $0 an hour. The studies about the price elasticity of labor also don't bother to prove that there are real-world benefits beyond the fact that a higher minimum wage sounds good. Being unemployed is not better than making a low wage.
- Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
  I tend to agree with this conventional Econ 101 wisdom, but your comment got me wondering if raising the minimum wage would have an effect of driving people to build skills and push harder. I.e. think of a minimum wage as the government saying to workers, ‘Hey, if you want to be part of this economy, you better be at least X productive.’
  - cbsmith 4y ago
    It can also drive businesses to develop models where people are more productive. Productivity isn't just a function of skills and how much people "push", but also how businesses operate.
  - surement 4y ago
    What about teenagers and young adults with no work experience? They are the age groups with the highest levels of unemployment. https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm In fact, very few people earn minimum wage past early adulthood. I don't remember where I got this figure but it was something like 93% of people over the age of 24 make higher than minimum wage. In any case, income is highly correlated with age until retirement ages. https://www.statista.com/statistics/233184/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/233184/median-household-... The motivation to earn skills to make more money is there regardless of minimum wage laws.

idiotsecant 4y ago

When are they going to start firing people to make up for the actual effective minimum wage being above 15 bucks for some time now? where I live is not even a particularly high COL area but fast food places hire for 16-17 an hour. They aren't hiring fewer people, they are struggling to hire, in fact! There is so much demand for workers that those places can't convince them to work for double the minimum wage given the crappy conditions they require. The idea that a rising minimum wage will result in lower employment, given that the current wage is lower in real terms than it was 30 years ago, makes absolutely no sense - the real world evidence is literally all around us right now.

fugalfervor 4y ago
Assuming an even distribution of COVID deaths throughout the 50 states, 20,000 workers per state have died in the last two years. I wonder if that has anything to do with the hiring difficulties fast-food restaurants are facing. The number of deaths is probably also higher among those who would be fast-food workers, since the likelihood of death from COVID was correlated with poverty.
- jimmaswell 4y ago
  How many 80 year olds were working in fast food in 2019?
  - irrational 4y ago
    Most of the people who I knew that died from Covid were not old people. I literally did not know of any old people that died from it. Even my 99 year old grandmother got it and beat it (this was pre-vaccine). She said that she beat the Spanish flu in the 1920s so she would beat Covid in the 2020s, and she did.
  - fugalfervor 4y ago
    This kind of response is why I asked the question, I guess. I don't know the answer!
  - 4y ago