7 ms·

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workpl

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! But there isn't much the employees can do other than claim unemployment and then bring their talents to a competitor.

thehappypm 4y ago
“Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! ” This is totally incorrect. Free speech in this case is an opinion. The right to free speech is not freedom from consequences for voicing opinions.
- sumeno 4y ago
  Consequences like... being banned by Twitter perhaps?
  - mwint 4y ago
    You don’t have a right to not be banned from Twitter. Musk has been saying he thinks the way Twitter bans people is unhealthy for democracy. Point me to the place he’s said you have a capital-R Right to not be banned from Twitter.
toomanyrichies 4y ago
Except for Montana, every state in the US is an at-will employment state. Meaning the employer (and the employee) may terminate employment at any time, with or without cause or prior notice. In circumstances like this, the idea of "X is enough to get you fired" loses its meaning, since "X" could mean anything or nothing at all. Therefore, the relevant question is not "is the company within its rights to fire these employees", but rather "was it a good idea for the company to fire these employees".
- noasaservice 4y ago
  And in many of those states, you can be fired for simply being gay or trans. edit: Given how fast this post hit -4, I have to assume that these people are *OK* with being able to fire gay or trans people at a whim. That ain't cool, one bit.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    No, you're being downvoted because you are, thankfully, wrong: Supreme Court rules workers can’t be fired for being gay or transgender https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/15/supreme-court-rules-workers-cant-be-fired-for-being-gay-or-transgender.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/15/supreme-court-rules-workers-...
    - noasaservice 4y ago
      Oh please. You're "technically right", being the worst kind of right... And also just plain wrong. Instead it's called "lack of culture fit", "insubordination", or a myriad of any other right-to-work excuses as to fire someone you disagree with. But yes, for those stupid enough to put "Fired because of gay", well, it still is legal due to the loopholes a Mack Truck could drive through. https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-webb/2020/06/16/despite-supreme-court-you-can-still-get-fired-being-gay-trans/3197494001/ https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-we...
- mbesto 4y ago
  Which makes this whole thread hilarious, because so many people are implying wrongful termination, which, to your point, doesn't really matter. Unless of course the individual is a protected class.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Firing someone for belonging to a protected class is only one of many types of wrongful termination. There are several other types of illegal terminations. There are also laws that prohibit employers from punishing employees in certain circumstances relating to organizing/petitioning when in regard to concerns about workplace issues. For example: >You have the right to act with co-workers to address work-related issues in many ways. Examples include: [...] joining with co-workers to talk directly to your employer, to a government agency, or to the media about problems in your workplace https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/concerted-activity https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...
steve_g 4y ago
Could this be a protected concerted activity? In the US, there are some basic protections when two or more employees work together to improve the conditions of their employment. I don't know what does or doesn't qualify for this protection, though.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  And there are probably not clearly defined rules for this. What would need to happen now is for them to file a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board and that group could make a ruling about whether this is protected activity or not.
  - groby_b 4y ago
    Ayup. And if they're smart, they hire a lawyer for that.
colpabar 4y ago
> Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! I don't really get how musk's feelings on free speech apply here. SpaceX is not the government, and it's not a communications platform. I also think it's unfair to say "his feelings are hurt" - it seems perfectly logical to get rid of employees that so strongly disagree with the way the company is being run. And I have to wonder, why even work there if that's how you feel? This just looks like another example of a group of people who have "problems" with their company but don't want to give up the pay that it provides them.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  - colpabar 4y ago
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  I think it’s probably even worse than that, it’s a group of people wanting attention and publicity, using a cause that an Elon hating mainstream can use, for mutually helping each other. I principled person would at least quit before making a scene in the media, rather than spamming many people in the company. This is look at me behaviour coupled with politics at its worse.
bko 4y ago
What other organization wouldn't let go of someone under these circumstances? Are there any employees that openly, pulicaly and very vocally criticize their leadership Imagine working with someone like this? If you've been in an organization with people are constantly getting into flame wars about political issues, its incredibly distracting to those that want to get work done. Some people buy the whole "we're a family" HR spin, but its not true. You're there to do a job and you're paid to do so.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  > What other organization wouldn't let go of someone under these circumstances? Any organization that's worth working at, obviously. And there are plenty of them.
  - bko 4y ago
    Give me an example of someone doing this in another organization. Would you be willing to share your organization and any criticism you have of leadership?
    - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
      https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375913/alphabet-employees-open-letter-google-harassers https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375913/alphabet-employee... I don't have any complaints about my current organization, but whenever I feel something has transgressed my personal code of ethics I'm first very vocal about it internally and if necessary externally. I've only ever left companies voluntarily after this, and most have made efforts for me to stay. And it's not like I've been working at the most progressive companies ever.. maybe just don't work at a Musk company.
      - bko 4y ago
        Google has fired plenty of people for openly criticizing them. I never said an organization will necessarily fire someone for openly criticizing leadership. It's a case by case but within their right. I personally think its obnoxious and counterproductive for someone to call management out publicly. That's no way to operate an organization. Its a sign that someone is toxic. Some orgs like Bridgewater tried that but that's def not a place I would want to work. The appropriate channels and structure exist for a reason. They're not perfect but I'm not arrogant enough to think I know better than everyone else https://www.cnet.com/tech/google-fires-another-ai-researcher-for-questioning-findings-company-says-otherwise/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/google-fires-another-ai-researcher...
soSadm4n 4y ago
Oh but there is more employees can do than just work elsewhere for some other indifferent, childish blowhard; employees could not work until these childish snowflakes are dealt with. Real trade can happen without the speculation game. Some people may not get to build rocket engines in such a system but the species doesn’t owe a minority of first world engineers everything they want anymore than it owes an even smaller minority of billionaires. The propaganda has worked really well; you seem to actually believe human agency is coupled only to the money making endeavors before us today. Past technology is a joke relative to ours and so will these fancy things we make today seem to the future. Fleeing Earth on rockets is not the only path. It’s the only path we are allowed to speak to. Alternatives would cause the wrong people to lose privilege and power.
Alex3917 4y ago
> they're not protected against being fired Of course they are. Concerted workplace activity to improve workplace conditions is protected under NLRB. It's literally the definition of protected activity.
logifail 4y ago
> Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others into joining their cause. I've just started Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, but in previous work he wrote about "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority"[0] This example could easily be one of those instances. Back in the old days(!) one was expected to do one's job well, to treat others professionally - and to expect others to treat you well - but don't bring your private causes into the workplace and expect everyone to love you for it. Do what you like on your own time, but on the company's time, follow the rules. [0]https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- notahacker 4y ago
  > It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others That's also Twitter's policy on trolling and harassment which his totally sincere "free speech absolutism" seeks to end. Intimidation isn't asking fellow employees if they agree with the content of an open letter, it's public figures calling a blogger and telling them if their blog criticising Tesla isn't taken down, their totally unrelated boss will be getting a phone call . Guess which one Musk personally involved himself in...
  - logifail 4y ago
    > Intimidation isn't asking fellow employees if they agree with the content of an open letter [..] Errm, if fellow employees feel intimidated by you pitching up and asking them to sign, that's what we call intimidation, at least these days. If you want to organise an open letter, put it up somewhere public, tell everyone involved, and wait for people to sign it? Or not, it's their choice.
    - notahacker 4y ago
usrusr 4y ago
Is there any indication that free speech absolutism of the Muskian kind might also extend to people who aren't "financially independent"?
groby_b 4y ago
The NLRB would like a word with you. They've held that public complaints might qualify as protected activity - and "right to work" doesn't get you a get-out-of-jail-free card for that. The key is that this was "concerted" activity - a group of employees, not a single individual grousing. I strongly hope the fired individuals do look into getting a labor lawyer representing them.
concordDance 4y ago
> Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! I'm sure you can think of reasons other than "feelings getting hurt" for these firings...

thehappypm 4y ago

“Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! ” This is totally incorrect. Free speech in this case is an opinion. The right to free speech is not freedom from consequences for voicing opinions.

sumeno 4y ago
Consequences like... being banned by Twitter perhaps?
- mwint 4y ago
  You don’t have a right to not be banned from Twitter. Musk has been saying he thinks the way Twitter bans people is unhealthy for democracy. Point me to the place he’s said you have a capital-R Right to not be banned from Twitter.

toomanyrichies 4y ago

Except for Montana, every state in the US is an at-will employment state. Meaning the employer (and the employee) may terminate employment at any time, with or without cause or prior notice. In circumstances like this, the idea of "X is enough to get you fired" loses its meaning, since "X" could mean anything or nothing at all. Therefore, the relevant question is not "is the company within its rights to fire these employees", but rather "was it a good idea for the company to fire these employees".

noasaservice 4y ago
And in many of those states, you can be fired for simply being gay or trans. edit: Given how fast this post hit -4, I have to assume that these people are *OK* with being able to fire gay or trans people at a whim. That ain't cool, one bit.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  No, you're being downvoted because you are, thankfully, wrong: Supreme Court rules workers can’t be fired for being gay or transgender https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/15/supreme-court-rules-workers-cant-be-fired-for-being-gay-or-transgender.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/15/supreme-court-rules-workers-...
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    Oh please. You're "technically right", being the worst kind of right... And also just plain wrong. Instead it's called "lack of culture fit", "insubordination", or a myriad of any other right-to-work excuses as to fire someone you disagree with. But yes, for those stupid enough to put "Fired because of gay", well, it still is legal due to the loopholes a Mack Truck could drive through. https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-webb/2020/06/16/despite-supreme-court-you-can-still-get-fired-being-gay-trans/3197494001/ https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-we...
mbesto 4y ago
Which makes this whole thread hilarious, because so many people are implying wrongful termination, which, to your point, doesn't really matter. Unless of course the individual is a protected class.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Firing someone for belonging to a protected class is only one of many types of wrongful termination. There are several other types of illegal terminations. There are also laws that prohibit employers from punishing employees in certain circumstances relating to organizing/petitioning when in regard to concerns about workplace issues. For example: >You have the right to act with co-workers to address work-related issues in many ways. Examples include: [...] joining with co-workers to talk directly to your employer, to a government agency, or to the media about problems in your workplace https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/concerted-activity https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...

steve_g 4y ago

Could this be a protected concerted activity? In the US, there are some basic protections when two or more employees work together to improve the conditions of their employment. I don't know what does or doesn't qualify for this protection, though.

Tagbert 4y ago
And there are probably not clearly defined rules for this. What would need to happen now is for them to file a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board and that group could make a ruling about whether this is protected activity or not.
- groby_b 4y ago
  Ayup. And if they're smart, they hire a lawyer for that.

colpabar 4y ago

> Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! I don't really get how musk's feelings on free speech apply here. SpaceX is not the government, and it's not a communications platform. I also think it's unfair to say "his feelings are hurt" - it seems perfectly logical to get rid of employees that so strongly disagree with the way the company is being run. And I have to wonder, why even work there if that's how you feel? This just looks like another example of a group of people who have "problems" with their company but don't want to give up the pay that it provides them.

Aeolun 4y ago
- colpabar 4y ago
cloutchaser 4y ago
I think it’s probably even worse than that, it’s a group of people wanting attention and publicity, using a cause that an Elon hating mainstream can use, for mutually helping each other. I principled person would at least quit before making a scene in the media, rather than spamming many people in the company. This is look at me behaviour coupled with politics at its worse.

bko 4y ago

What other organization wouldn't let go of someone under these circumstances? Are there any employees that openly, pulicaly and very vocally criticize their leadership Imagine working with someone like this? If you've been in an organization with people are constantly getting into flame wars about political issues, its incredibly distracting to those that want to get work done. Some people buy the whole "we're a family" HR spin, but its not true. You're there to do a job and you're paid to do so.

femiagbabiaka 4y ago
> What other organization wouldn't let go of someone under these circumstances? Any organization that's worth working at, obviously. And there are plenty of them.
- bko 4y ago
  Give me an example of someone doing this in another organization. Would you be willing to share your organization and any criticism you have of leadership?
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375913/alphabet-employees-open-letter-google-harassers https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375913/alphabet-employee... I don't have any complaints about my current organization, but whenever I feel something has transgressed my personal code of ethics I'm first very vocal about it internally and if necessary externally. I've only ever left companies voluntarily after this, and most have made efforts for me to stay. And it's not like I've been working at the most progressive companies ever.. maybe just don't work at a Musk company.
    - bko 4y ago
      Google has fired plenty of people for openly criticizing them. I never said an organization will necessarily fire someone for openly criticizing leadership. It's a case by case but within their right. I personally think its obnoxious and counterproductive for someone to call management out publicly. That's no way to operate an organization. Its a sign that someone is toxic. Some orgs like Bridgewater tried that but that's def not a place I would want to work. The appropriate channels and structure exist for a reason. They're not perfect but I'm not arrogant enough to think I know better than everyone else https://www.cnet.com/tech/google-fires-another-ai-researcher-for-questioning-findings-company-says-otherwise/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/google-fires-another-ai-researcher...

soSadm4n 4y ago

Oh but there is more employees can do than just work elsewhere for some other indifferent, childish blowhard; employees could not work until these childish snowflakes are dealt with. Real trade can happen without the speculation game. Some people may not get to build rocket engines in such a system but the species doesn’t owe a minority of first world engineers everything they want anymore than it owes an even smaller minority of billionaires. The propaganda has worked really well; you seem to actually believe human agency is coupled only to the money making endeavors before us today. Past technology is a joke relative to ours and so will these fancy things we make today seem to the future. Fleeing Earth on rockets is not the only path. It’s the only path we are allowed to speak to. Alternatives would cause the wrong people to lose privilege and power.

Alex3917 4y ago

> they're not protected against being fired Of course they are. Concerted workplace activity to improve workplace conditions is protected under NLRB. It's literally the definition of protected activity.

logifail 4y ago

> Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others into joining their cause. I've just started Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, but in previous work he wrote about "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority"[0] This example could easily be one of those instances. Back in the old days(!) one was expected to do one's job well, to treat others professionally - and to expect others to treat you well - but don't bring your private causes into the workplace and expect everyone to love you for it. Do what you like on your own time, but on the company's time, follow the rules. [0]https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

notahacker 4y ago
> It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others That's also Twitter's policy on trolling and harassment which his totally sincere "free speech absolutism" seeks to end. Intimidation isn't asking fellow employees if they agree with the content of an open letter, it's public figures calling a blogger and telling them if their blog criticising Tesla isn't taken down, their totally unrelated boss will be getting a phone call . Guess which one Musk personally involved himself in...
- logifail 4y ago
  > Intimidation isn't asking fellow employees if they agree with the content of an open letter [..] Errm, if fellow employees feel intimidated by you pitching up and asking them to sign, that's what we call intimidation, at least these days. If you want to organise an open letter, put it up somewhere public, tell everyone involved, and wait for people to sign it? Or not, it's their choice.
  - notahacker 4y ago

usrusr 4y ago

Is there any indication that free speech absolutism of the Muskian kind might also extend to people who aren't "financially independent"?

groby_b 4y ago

The NLRB would like a word with you. They've held that public complaints might qualify as protected activity - and "right to work" doesn't get you a get-out-of-jail-free card for that. The key is that this was "concerted" activity - a group of employees, not a single individual grousing. I strongly hope the fired individuals do look into getting a labor lawyer representing them.

concordDance 4y ago

> Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? Certainly! I'm sure you can think of reasons other than "feelings getting hurt" for these firings...