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I think about this constantly while reading Hacker News. So many articles and comments by people whose level of enthusiasm doesn't match their experience. Try

by maxk42 4y ago

I think about this constantly while reading Hacker News. So many articles and comments by people whose level of enthusiasm doesn't match their experience. Try to voice a comment that goes against the flow of that enthusiasm and you'll be downvoted to oblivion, even if you speak with more experience and context than the masses. I'm horrified by some of the stuff I see here and feel like it's often useless to speak out.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
boris 4y ago
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
d23 4y ago
I've become a lot more willing to burn my karma on here as of late. Not because I want to, per se, but what's the point of getting it if you can't spend it occasionally when you really have something you need to say?
- RealityVoid 4y ago
  That, and, well, there isn't _really_ a cost to burning Karma, it's all the same anyway. I find it much better and more interesting to speak truthfully (while not being an asshole!) than just to go with the hive mind.
  - zionic 4y ago
    >I find it much better and more interesting to speak truthfully (while not being an asshole!) But that’s just it, the truth will always be offensive to someone. You’ll always be the asshole to “someone”. If we structure discourse around never being perceived as an asshole by anyone we effectively yield the zeitgeist to whoever is the biggest crybaby. It’s not just this site, this line of thinking has infected most western dialog.
    - acover 4y ago
      I don't think that's what he means. Clearly sometimes you just upset people, however you can be careful to minimize it.
      - zionic 4y ago
        If you matter at all you’re going to offend more people than you even know exist. The entire metric is flawed and useless.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Hacker News caps downvotes so it’s quite easy to actually say what you need to at times where it’s important. (Before someone says something like “but I got shadowbanned for doing this” consider it you 1. followed the guidelines while doing so and 2. actually backed your position up with evidence.)
- eterm 4y ago
  Absolutely, I've always held karma both on here and reddit as a resource that is to be spent when needed. That's not to say, "be an arsehole" or go against ToS, but definitely it's made me willing to stand my ground even when I hold unpopular opinions or opinions where my culture clashes with the dominant one.
- astrange 4y ago
  Whenever I get downvoted for something, I tend to have another comment on the same page that says nearly the same thing and gets upvoted just as much, so it all evens out. Can't say I get any information out of this.
- zionic 4y ago
  >but what's the point of getting it if you can't spend it occasionally when you really have something you need to say? Because if you do it enough you’ll find yourself with a 3 comment per hour rate limit or shadowban. The moderation here actively discourages meaningful discussion in favor of sterile communication. It’s boring.
whitepoplar 4y ago
Care to share some of the stuff you've been horrified by on here? I'd love to read more.
- kayamon 4y ago
  haha try mentioning crypto and wait to see if a useful, informed, coherent discussion ensues.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Have you considered going into politics? ;-). That comment is wonderful for what it doesn't say.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- maze-le 4y ago
  Anything even slightly critical about nuclear energy. Even if you are pro-nuclear but with certain doubts about some aspects of the technology or its role in society.
closedloop129 4y ago
It would be nice if votes were more accessible. If it were possible to reduce the weight of those who downvote those comments, the overall ranking should improve.
headmelted 4y ago
To be honest I’ve come to suspect I may be guilty of this myself. I’m trying to do better at being open-minded to unpopular opinions (not always successfully).
fleddr 4y ago
Horrified is a bit strong, but you have a point. There's a few themes that are strongly popular or unpopular by some type of community consensus. In those cases, it doesn't seem to matter what you have to say as minds are already made up. Another interesting effect I experienced is regarding expert credibility. When I found this place, I was impressed. I figured the world's top engineers are posting. I see them writing about very advanced topics I know little about. Comments are well written, and combined this creates trust. But there's been incidents. I'm the type of person that has an extremely deep level of knowledge in about 2 or 3 very niche topics that frankly normally nobody cares about. I know that sounds pretentious, but for the sake of argument, let's accept it for now. By chance, very infrequently, an article and discussion may be about those extremely niche topics. And now things are falling apart. As before, seemingly insightful professional-level comments are written. The problem is, 70% of them are wrong. I'm not talking "different opinion", I mean factually wrong, that's not how this works, and you seem to have no idea what you're talking about. I imagine to the outsider not in the niche reading along: interesting expert discussion. Just as I was reading about all those topics I know little about. This raises the obvious question: when I read impressive comments regarding topics I know little about, how many are actually trustworthy and accurate expertise versus how many are just well written made up nonsense? This question hits me hard because it kind of forces you to become skeptical and cynical by default, which I don't want to be.
- MAMAMassakali 4y ago
  Gell-Mann amnesia
  - fleddr 4y ago
    I had no idea there was a term for it, thanks so much!
- amself 4y ago
  What motivates people to make up nonsense?
  - smolder 4y ago
joe_the_user 4y ago
Try to voice a comment that goes against the flow of that enthusiasm and you'll be downvoted to oblivion, even if you speak with more experience and context than the masses. I'm horrified by some of the stuff I see here and feel like it's often useless to speak out. Fighting idiocy that gets entrenched by the even a few comments is challenging. But depending on circumstances, there are specific rhetorical strategies that can be effective. IE, sometimes they work and sometimes they're futile. I like to flatter myself that deciding whether you can make an impact is bit like looking for a good shot in advanced pool. But the thing here is, there's no guarantee that an actual expert "old hand" is going to know any of these approaches. So you have to read the discussion with this in mind.
friendzis 4y ago
I do sincerely miss the Webshit Weekly. Yes, their comments were snarky and contrarian in nature, but really helped bring some balance to the herd consensus
Beltalowda 4y ago
> I think about this constantly while reading Hacker News. So many articles and comments by people whose level of enthusiasm doesn't match their experience. Years ago I attended a small code conference in my city; just a general "programmers hang out and give talks type of thing". Someone gave a presentation about Scala (I think it was Scala anyway); it was a general introduction explaining the semantics, ideas, syntax, etc. At the end someone asked a question: "In our experience [some practical problem they encountered, I forgot what exactly], how do you deal with this"? "Oh, we haven't really used Scala in production, I just learned it; I don't really know".
ugh123 4y ago
>So many articles and comments by people whose level of enthusiasm doesn't match their experience That also perfectly describes LinkedIn these days

by maxk42 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

boris 4y ago

"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell

d23 4y ago

I've become a lot more willing to burn my karma on here as of late. Not because I want to, per se, but what's the point of getting it if you can't spend it occasionally when you really have something you need to say?

RealityVoid 4y ago
That, and, well, there isn't _really_ a cost to burning Karma, it's all the same anyway. I find it much better and more interesting to speak truthfully (while not being an asshole!) than just to go with the hive mind.
- zionic 4y ago
  >I find it much better and more interesting to speak truthfully (while not being an asshole!) But that’s just it, the truth will always be offensive to someone. You’ll always be the asshole to “someone”. If we structure discourse around never being perceived as an asshole by anyone we effectively yield the zeitgeist to whoever is the biggest crybaby. It’s not just this site, this line of thinking has infected most western dialog.
  - acover 4y ago
    I don't think that's what he means. Clearly sometimes you just upset people, however you can be careful to minimize it.
    - zionic 4y ago
      If you matter at all you’re going to offend more people than you even know exist. The entire metric is flawed and useless.
saagarjha 4y ago
Hacker News caps downvotes so it’s quite easy to actually say what you need to at times where it’s important. (Before someone says something like “but I got shadowbanned for doing this” consider it you 1. followed the guidelines while doing so and 2. actually backed your position up with evidence.)
eterm 4y ago
Absolutely, I've always held karma both on here and reddit as a resource that is to be spent when needed. That's not to say, "be an arsehole" or go against ToS, but definitely it's made me willing to stand my ground even when I hold unpopular opinions or opinions where my culture clashes with the dominant one.
astrange 4y ago
Whenever I get downvoted for something, I tend to have another comment on the same page that says nearly the same thing and gets upvoted just as much, so it all evens out. Can't say I get any information out of this.
zionic 4y ago
>but what's the point of getting it if you can't spend it occasionally when you really have something you need to say? Because if you do it enough you’ll find yourself with a 3 comment per hour rate limit or shadowban. The moderation here actively discourages meaningful discussion in favor of sterile communication. It’s boring.

whitepoplar 4y ago

Care to share some of the stuff you've been horrified by on here? I'd love to read more.

kayamon 4y ago
haha try mentioning crypto and wait to see if a useful, informed, coherent discussion ensues.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Have you considered going into politics? ;-). That comment is wonderful for what it doesn't say.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
maze-le 4y ago
Anything even slightly critical about nuclear energy. Even if you are pro-nuclear but with certain doubts about some aspects of the technology or its role in society.

closedloop129 4y ago

It would be nice if votes were more accessible. If it were possible to reduce the weight of those who downvote those comments, the overall ranking should improve.

headmelted 4y ago

To be honest I’ve come to suspect I may be guilty of this myself. I’m trying to do better at being open-minded to unpopular opinions (not always successfully).

fleddr 4y ago

Horrified is a bit strong, but you have a point. There's a few themes that are strongly popular or unpopular by some type of community consensus. In those cases, it doesn't seem to matter what you have to say as minds are already made up. Another interesting effect I experienced is regarding expert credibility. When I found this place, I was impressed. I figured the world's top engineers are posting. I see them writing about very advanced topics I know little about. Comments are well written, and combined this creates trust. But there's been incidents. I'm the type of person that has an extremely deep level of knowledge in about 2 or 3 very niche topics that frankly normally nobody cares about. I know that sounds pretentious, but for the sake of argument, let's accept it for now. By chance, very infrequently, an article and discussion may be about those extremely niche topics. And now things are falling apart. As before, seemingly insightful professional-level comments are written. The problem is, 70% of them are wrong. I'm not talking "different opinion", I mean factually wrong, that's not how this works, and you seem to have no idea what you're talking about. I imagine to the outsider not in the niche reading along: interesting expert discussion. Just as I was reading about all those topics I know little about. This raises the obvious question: when I read impressive comments regarding topics I know little about, how many are actually trustworthy and accurate expertise versus how many are just well written made up nonsense? This question hits me hard because it kind of forces you to become skeptical and cynical by default, which I don't want to be.

MAMAMassakali 4y ago
Gell-Mann amnesia
- fleddr 4y ago
  I had no idea there was a term for it, thanks so much!
amself 4y ago
What motivates people to make up nonsense?
- smolder 4y ago

joe_the_user 4y ago

Try to voice a comment that goes against the flow of that enthusiasm and you'll be downvoted to oblivion, even if you speak with more experience and context than the masses. I'm horrified by some of the stuff I see here and feel like it's often useless to speak out. Fighting idiocy that gets entrenched by the even a few comments is challenging. But depending on circumstances, there are specific rhetorical strategies that can be effective. IE, sometimes they work and sometimes they're futile. I like to flatter myself that deciding whether you can make an impact is bit like looking for a good shot in advanced pool. But the thing here is, there's no guarantee that an actual expert "old hand" is going to know any of these approaches. So you have to read the discussion with this in mind.

friendzis 4y ago

I do sincerely miss the Webshit Weekly. Yes, their comments were snarky and contrarian in nature, but really helped bring some balance to the herd consensus

Beltalowda 4y ago

> I think about this constantly while reading Hacker News. So many articles and comments by people whose level of enthusiasm doesn't match their experience. Years ago I attended a small code conference in my city; just a general "programmers hang out and give talks type of thing". Someone gave a presentation about Scala (I think it was Scala anyway); it was a general introduction explaining the semantics, ideas, syntax, etc. At the end someone asked a question: "In our experience [some practical problem they encountered, I forgot what exactly], how do you deal with this"? "Oh, we haven't really used Scala in production, I just learned it; I don't really know".

ugh123 4y ago

>So many articles and comments by people whose level of enthusiasm doesn't match their experience That also perfectly describes LinkedIn these days