4 ms·

> It is so pervasive and so stealthy that it is hard to even talk about it without sounding like a crackpot You're sitting in the intersection of 'it's pervasi

> It is so pervasive and so stealthy that it is hard to even talk about it without sounding like a crackpot You're sitting in the intersection of 'it's pervasive', 'nobody is noticing it', and not listing the evidence for it. So yeah, it sounds crackpotty. > It has become a little more evident recently with the emergence of evangelical Christian activism in politics Christians, evangelical or otherwise, have been generally active in politics for as long as Christianity has existed. To say this is an 'emerging' problem as though America started from a position of mainstream secularism seems entirely ahistorical. If anything, the generational trend has been the decline of superstition in all aspects of American society. 60 years ago it was common for public schools to make children recite christian prayers, but that's almost unheard of now. The trend is obviously towards secularization, and while that trend may not be happening fast enough to suit some of us, it's wildly disingenuous to suggest the trend is in the reverse direction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_States#School_prayer_prior_to_1962 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_St...

lisper 4y ago
Yep, I get that. I did give two examples, but no supporting evidence. In the case of Menlo Park being owned by the Presbyterian Church, I'm not sure how I would support that short of pulling up dozens of Menlo Park property records. I don't know of any journalism about this. With regards to the LDS church, this is well-known and well-documented. Here's just one easily-found link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2012-07-12/the-mormon-global-business-empire https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2012-07-12/the-m... Here are some links about the more general problem: https://www.businessinsider.com/18-extremely-religious-big-american-companies-2013-6?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/18-extremely-religious-big-a... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/religion-bigger-business-than-we-thought https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/religion-bigger-busin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  The Business Insider article is I think a clear demonstration of what concerns me about this kind of analysis. The author seems to see strict secularism as the only "normal" way to run a business, declining to recognize a distinction between businesses owned by a religion and businesses whose owners happen to be devout followers of a religion. When simply printing the text "John 3:16" on the bottom of your soda cups is enough to be considered an extremely religious company, I hear "Downtown Menlo Park is largely owned by the Presbyterian Church" and question how much of that ownership is simply by people who happen to be leaders in their congregation. (In particular, Presbyterians aren't a single corporate structure like the Mormons are, so it's not clear which specific organization the claim should be understood to refer to.)
  - mike00632 4y ago
    Bible verses on cups is one thing but Hobby lobby went to court to avoid paying women's insurance. Chick-fil-A is closed on Sundays and fights for the right to discriminate against groups it marginalizes for religious reasons. These practices are bad for profit, bad for customers, bad for society, and only good for the religious leaders who take from the earnings without even being a part of the business.
    - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
      It's also good for religious followers! This is really the lack of understanding I'm getting at. Many religious people genuinely believe that following their religion is more important than profit or customers and inherently good for society. I'm not saying you have to agree with our beliefs, of course, but it's not right to think of religion affecting the secular world as some kind of weird practice that has to be explained by corrupt leaders. Most religions and basically all Christian churches teach that you should consider religious factors in your business and personal lives.
    - shp0ngle 4y ago
      oh nooo, it closes on Sunday.

lisper 4y ago

Yep, I get that. I did give two examples, but no supporting evidence. In the case of Menlo Park being owned by the Presbyterian Church, I'm not sure how I would support that short of pulling up dozens of Menlo Park property records. I don't know of any journalism about this. With regards to the LDS church, this is well-known and well-documented. Here's just one easily-found link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2012-07-12/the-mormon-global-business-empire https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2012-07-12/the-m... Here are some links about the more general problem: https://www.businessinsider.com/18-extremely-religious-big-american-companies-2013-6?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/18-extremely-religious-big-a... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/religion-bigger-business-than-we-thought https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/religion-bigger-busin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
The Business Insider article is I think a clear demonstration of what concerns me about this kind of analysis. The author seems to see strict secularism as the only "normal" way to run a business, declining to recognize a distinction between businesses owned by a religion and businesses whose owners happen to be devout followers of a religion. When simply printing the text "John 3:16" on the bottom of your soda cups is enough to be considered an extremely religious company, I hear "Downtown Menlo Park is largely owned by the Presbyterian Church" and question how much of that ownership is simply by people who happen to be leaders in their congregation. (In particular, Presbyterians aren't a single corporate structure like the Mormons are, so it's not clear which specific organization the claim should be understood to refer to.)
- mike00632 4y ago
  Bible verses on cups is one thing but Hobby lobby went to court to avoid paying women's insurance. Chick-fil-A is closed on Sundays and fights for the right to discriminate against groups it marginalizes for religious reasons. These practices are bad for profit, bad for customers, bad for society, and only good for the religious leaders who take from the earnings without even being a part of the business.
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
    It's also good for religious followers! This is really the lack of understanding I'm getting at. Many religious people genuinely believe that following their religion is more important than profit or customers and inherently good for society. I'm not saying you have to agree with our beliefs, of course, but it's not right to think of religion affecting the secular world as some kind of weird practice that has to be explained by corrupt leaders. Most religions and basically all Christian churches teach that you should consider religious factors in your business and personal lives.
  - shp0ngle 4y ago
    oh nooo, it closes on Sunday.