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> At American University, which eliminated cafeteria trays, one study indicated the move would save 13 tons of food every semester The more interesting but una

> At American University, which eliminated cafeteria trays, one study indicated the move would save 13 tons of food every semester The more interesting but unasked Q to me is, How much food would be saved if they just did away with the dining halls? People that pay for each component of each meal probably waste considerably less food than the pre-paid assembly line of junk.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bee_rider 4y ago
Dining halls are pretty convenient IMO. * It is more efficient -- no need to bill for every item, so just tap your RFID card on the way in. * It is usually billed in the general proximity of tuition, so if parents are paying they can be sure the money is spent on food rather than beer. * Students are in a weird spot, lots of stuff is being thrown at them (studying of course, and might be away from home for the first time). It is nice to take the financial concern out of the nutritional balance calculus. * If the admin is motivated, they can simplify the waste stream (it is centrally managed and lends itself to buffet style, so they can make sure everything that the students get is biodegradable -- the waste should just be compost). Plus is is a nice community space.
- stordoff 4y ago
  My Cambridge (UK) college billed per item, and I not sure you lose all of those advantages. > It is more efficient -- no need to bill for every item, so just tap your RFID card on the way in. The items were just quickly added up by a person at the end of the line, then you'd scan your student barcode/tap an RFID card and be billed for that amount. This was never the bottleneck in getting served. > It is usually billed in the general proximity of tuition, so if parents are paying they can be sure the money is spent on food rather than beer. You were billed in arrears at the start of the next term, so it was clear the money was going to the college (you could also use your card in the college bar, but IIRC this was itemised differently so parents could check if they want). > It is nice to take the financial concern out of the nutritional balance calculus. Certainly nice, but removing trays may skew the balance in other ways (FTA "trayless dining decreased the percentage of diners who took salad by 65.2 percent but did not decrease the percentage who took dessert"). > they can make sure everything that the students get is biodegradable / Plus is is a nice community space. Most people ate in halls anyway (the accommodation only had very rudimentary cooking facilities), so the first is still doable and we gathered as a group to dine most evenings. You'd also meet other people who happened to go at the same time.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    But that's the UK. We're not happy in the US until we've made everything in education into an assembly line.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
      What they describe is pretty much how it works in my local elementary/middle schools.
- citizenkeen 4y ago
  Not all dining halls are all-you-can-eat buffets. Plenty charge you per item.
- adrianmonk 4y ago
  > more efficient -- no need to bill for every item And probably not just with time efficiency. The dining hall has economies of scale compared to putting a kitchenette in every dorm room/suite. It's almost definitely more space efficient. It's probably also more energy efficient.
- irrational 4y ago
  > nutritional balance calculus. My freshman year I ate in the dining hall. I primarily ate Lucky Charms for every meal. I’m not sure how much nutritional balance calculus I was doing.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Hey, that was your choice, right? College students are adults after all.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Not when it comes to signing their name on a student loan document.
    - irrational 4y ago
      LOL I may have thought I was an adult, but the perspective of age has shown me that I definitely was not, other than perhaps legally.
  - krallja 4y ago
    Did you ever have to decide between “eating today” and _____? That’s the calculus you avoided.
Zigurd 4y ago
This "People that pay for each component of each meal probably waste considerably less..." is one of those arguments that depend on Economic Man being real. It is in fact rational to pay flat rates even when some subset of the population gets outsize benefits and others pay more than they otherwise would. That's why your ISP bill is flat rate (albeit with a cap). That means that within a wide range of use cases, your bill is predictable. Predictability has value. Economists may argue that more variables let you optimize systems. But real humans have a limited ability to pay attention to their economics. Getting rid of trays looks like an obvious winner. But paying for every item in a dining hall would be a sucky UX and lead to perverse outcomes because customers will find the product hard to use.
- mejutoco 4y ago
  I find the point about predictability interesting. Personally, sometimes (not always) I have been in a buffet and the quality is very low because some people eat as much as they can. In that context I would gladly have paid per item. Point one, quality may change when charged per item. > But paying for every item in a dining hall would be a sucky UX and lead to perverse outcomes because customers will find the product hard to use. I basically only disagree with you on this one. This is exactly how restaurants work, and customers do not find it hard to use. They still often have a menu to combine a subset of all the items available under a common pricing. IMO it is cultural. I believe it is a combination of two factors: First, do we think of the students as intelligent creatures, with discerning capabilities, or as cattle to be fed? And second, do we value the quality of food, or it is just a problem to be solved at the minimum cost? Paying per component or buffet can both work. I do not think one is more efficient/rational. Quality, freshness of product, amount of food wasted, variance in price, health implications, can change a lot between both approaches.
mwcremer 4y ago
Apparently they tried that at CalTech in the 70's, and then re-instated the dining halls at the behest of parents after a significant percentage of the undergraduates showed symptoms of malnutrition.
- antognini 4y ago
  I can certainly believe it. One of my friends at Caltech spent a term eating nothing but instant ramen and green tea. By the end of the term he became very sick and his gums started bleeding. Once someone pointed out that it looked like he had scurvy he drank a quart of orange juice and his symptoms went away.
ok_dad 4y ago
I was curious, so I looked it up and there are about 13k students at American university. That suggests that the food waste savings would be about 2 pounds per student per semester, so like a spoonful per day or so. Doesn’t seem very impactful.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bee_rider 4y ago

Dining halls are pretty convenient IMO. * It is more efficient -- no need to bill for every item, so just tap your RFID card on the way in. * It is usually billed in the general proximity of tuition, so if parents are paying they can be sure the money is spent on food rather than beer. * Students are in a weird spot, lots of stuff is being thrown at them (studying of course, and might be away from home for the first time). It is nice to take the financial concern out of the nutritional balance calculus. * If the admin is motivated, they can simplify the waste stream (it is centrally managed and lends itself to buffet style, so they can make sure everything that the students get is biodegradable -- the waste should just be compost). Plus is is a nice community space.

stordoff 4y ago
My Cambridge (UK) college billed per item, and I not sure you lose all of those advantages. > It is more efficient -- no need to bill for every item, so just tap your RFID card on the way in. The items were just quickly added up by a person at the end of the line, then you'd scan your student barcode/tap an RFID card and be billed for that amount. This was never the bottleneck in getting served. > It is usually billed in the general proximity of tuition, so if parents are paying they can be sure the money is spent on food rather than beer. You were billed in arrears at the start of the next term, so it was clear the money was going to the college (you could also use your card in the college bar, but IIRC this was itemised differently so parents could check if they want). > It is nice to take the financial concern out of the nutritional balance calculus. Certainly nice, but removing trays may skew the balance in other ways (FTA "trayless dining decreased the percentage of diners who took salad by 65.2 percent but did not decrease the percentage who took dessert"). > they can make sure everything that the students get is biodegradable / Plus is is a nice community space. Most people ate in halls anyway (the accommodation only had very rudimentary cooking facilities), so the first is still doable and we gathered as a group to dine most evenings. You'd also meet other people who happened to go at the same time.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  But that's the UK. We're not happy in the US until we've made everything in education into an assembly line.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    What they describe is pretty much how it works in my local elementary/middle schools.
citizenkeen 4y ago
Not all dining halls are all-you-can-eat buffets. Plenty charge you per item.
adrianmonk 4y ago
> more efficient -- no need to bill for every item And probably not just with time efficiency. The dining hall has economies of scale compared to putting a kitchenette in every dorm room/suite. It's almost definitely more space efficient. It's probably also more energy efficient.
irrational 4y ago
> nutritional balance calculus. My freshman year I ate in the dining hall. I primarily ate Lucky Charms for every meal. I’m not sure how much nutritional balance calculus I was doing.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Hey, that was your choice, right? College students are adults after all.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Not when it comes to signing their name on a student loan document.
  - irrational 4y ago
    LOL I may have thought I was an adult, but the perspective of age has shown me that I definitely was not, other than perhaps legally.
- krallja 4y ago
  Did you ever have to decide between “eating today” and _____? That’s the calculus you avoided.

Zigurd 4y ago

This "People that pay for each component of each meal probably waste considerably less..." is one of those arguments that depend on Economic Man being real. It is in fact rational to pay flat rates even when some subset of the population gets outsize benefits and others pay more than they otherwise would. That's why your ISP bill is flat rate (albeit with a cap). That means that within a wide range of use cases, your bill is predictable. Predictability has value. Economists may argue that more variables let you optimize systems. But real humans have a limited ability to pay attention to their economics. Getting rid of trays looks like an obvious winner. But paying for every item in a dining hall would be a sucky UX and lead to perverse outcomes because customers will find the product hard to use.

mejutoco 4y ago
I find the point about predictability interesting. Personally, sometimes (not always) I have been in a buffet and the quality is very low because some people eat as much as they can. In that context I would gladly have paid per item. Point one, quality may change when charged per item. > But paying for every item in a dining hall would be a sucky UX and lead to perverse outcomes because customers will find the product hard to use. I basically only disagree with you on this one. This is exactly how restaurants work, and customers do not find it hard to use. They still often have a menu to combine a subset of all the items available under a common pricing. IMO it is cultural. I believe it is a combination of two factors: First, do we think of the students as intelligent creatures, with discerning capabilities, or as cattle to be fed? And second, do we value the quality of food, or it is just a problem to be solved at the minimum cost? Paying per component or buffet can both work. I do not think one is more efficient/rational. Quality, freshness of product, amount of food wasted, variance in price, health implications, can change a lot between both approaches.

mwcremer 4y ago

Apparently they tried that at CalTech in the 70's, and then re-instated the dining halls at the behest of parents after a significant percentage of the undergraduates showed symptoms of malnutrition.

antognini 4y ago
I can certainly believe it. One of my friends at Caltech spent a term eating nothing but instant ramen and green tea. By the end of the term he became very sick and his gums started bleeding. Once someone pointed out that it looked like he had scurvy he drank a quart of orange juice and his symptoms went away.

ok_dad 4y ago

I was curious, so I looked it up and there are about 13k students at American university. That suggests that the food waste savings would be about 2 pounds per student per semester, so like a spoonful per day or so. Doesn’t seem very impactful.