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Barber schools and license requirements in Rhode Island
- owenversteeg 4y agoSo, there's no discussion here of if this makes Rhode Island's barbers significantly better than other states. Does it? Anyone have experience getting a Rhode Island haircut vs. somewhere else nearby? Even Googling around doesn't seem to show much.
- HPsquared 4y agoBetter paid, almost certainly (compared to the local average for other jobs). Better? Maybe, but probably not.
- s1artibartfast 4y agoDo you have any data on that? We know that they pay more for school, but that doesn't mean they make more
- HPsquared 4y agoJust considering the effect on supply and demand: barriers to entry reduce the supply of labor, which increases its price. Just like, say, doctors are very well-paid because they are in limited supply.
- Bostonian 4y agoThe Institute for Justice https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/occupational-licensing/ https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/occupational-licensin... has done good work opposing excessive occupational licensing requirements.
- AlphaOne1 4y agoThanks for sharing, I just finished watching the video and found it very interesting. I was not aware how many states don't have any licensing requirements which really makes me question why we have so many licensing laws. Do you know if there have been any studies showing a change in pay based on the presence of license? I remember talking to a medical technician who moved from a state with licensing laws and he said he did take a pay cut but still was glad he moved.
- pydry 4y agoLike most things related to fighting occupational licensing IfJ was backed by the kochs: https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Justice https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Justice I never did quite understand their obsession with hairdresser licensing but all their institutions push it.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago>I never did quite understand their obsession with hairdresser licensing but all their institutions push it. Marketing. It's highly relatable to larger swaths of the population. There's plenty of other licensing things that are even more asinine but they don't have the broad mass market appeal.
- pydry 4y agoMarketing what? They largrly sell chemicals and oil.
- pnw 4y agoIt’s not just barbers. Excessive licensing requirements are an impediment to people starting small businesses. “Since our founding, IJ has fought to roll back oppressive occupational-licensing rules in more than two dozen distinct occupations, ranging all the way from tax preparers to florists to traditional African hair braiders.”
- glofish 4y ago> The average salary for experienced barbers was $42,187, while those new to the field earned $19,042 on average. These are the examples of when I think society, overall, makes no sense. How come this is how it works and that there are barbers at all?
- overcast 4y agoProbably because like most service jobs, unreported tips.
- macinjosh 4y agoIMHO it is everyone's duty as Americans to tip only in cash by handing it directly to the person who served you. Any other way the business owner, other employees, the government, and even the banks will try to get in between and take a piece. For example, I have zero faith all the the tip money you send through the Starbucks or Door Dash app actually makes it into the pocket of the laborer. I consider tips to be small personal gifts to thank someone for what they've done for me. It is nobody's business but mine and the recipient's.
- RC_ITR 4y agoSad part about this is that a “DoorDash tip” is more of a “bid for a dasher to take my order,” so if it ever seems like you get low quality dasher, that may be why.
- hellisothers 4y agoDo dashers really see the tip before accepting?
- treeman79 4y agohttps://youtube.com/shorts/SpEfWSMRJJ8?feature=share https://youtube.com/shorts/SpEfWSMRJJ8?feature=share Apparently it’s a big thing of “no tip, no trip”.
- macinjosh 4y agoThis is good podcast episode on occupational licensing and the problems it creates. https://www.rstreet.org/2019/04/23/shoshana-weissmann-on-occupational-licensing/ https://www.rstreet.org/2019/04/23/shoshana-weissmann-on-occ... In Louisiana more people pass the bar exam than pass the florist licensing exam. It is protectionism through government power.
- leeroyjenkins11 4y agoIt also gives the state a stick to make sure people do what they want. Fight us and we revoke your license. It goes from protecting the consumer from scams, but often grows into a way to exercise power.
- bombcar 4y agoAnd often the license can be revoked for any number of "offenses" and without anything like a court trial.
- tzs 4y ago> In Louisiana more people pass the bar exam than pass the florist licensing exam. I'm not surprised considering the different requirements to take those exams. To be allowed to take the bar exam in Louisiana you have to be a graduate of a law school accredited by the American Bar Association. That takes 3 years and costs a lot of money. Before actually taking the bar exam, most graduates then take a third party bar exam prep course for somewhere in the $2k to $4k range, which is an intense course focusing on just passing the bar exam. To be allowed to take the retail florist license exam in Louisiana, it appears that all you have to do is make an appointment and pay a $114 exam fee. There don't seem to be in education or training requirements, although they do recommend the book "Flowers: Creative Design" [1] as a reference. I'd expect then that a lot higher percentage of unprepared people take the florist exam than take the bar exam. If the bar exam was open to anyone who showed up and paid $114 the pass rate would certainly plummet. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Flowers-Creative-James-Johnson-Jr/dp/1585441716 https://www.amazon.com/Flowers-Creative-James-Johnson-Jr/dp/...
- snorkel 4y ago
- alangibson 4y agoAt least you can do the hours as an apprentice. Of course, you have to register as an apprentice with the board first
- gbronner 4y agoWhat do you learn in 1500 hours? That's almost a year of work. I understand that surgeons apprentice for years, but what's the logic here?
- azekai 4y agoProtectionism, nothing more.
- avereveard 4y agoBarber combines a lot of chemicals on top of people head/face. Just because you don't see them as knowledge worker doesn't mean they can work uneducated.
- colinmhayes 4y ago1500 hours is beyond overkill for barber training. No ones saying they should be untrained, only reasonably trained.
- jachee 4y agoAlso razor-sharp blades and high-powered electric trimmers. Plus it’s people’s hair/beards which can have a profound impact on their appearance and thus their mental state. All good reasons to train from “can succeed” to “cannot fail.” Edit: Case in point: https://reddit.com/r/funny/comments/vdnocs/went_to_a_new_barber_asked_for_my_part_to_be_cut/ https://reddit.com/r/funny/comments/vdnocs/went_to_a_new_bar...
- treeman79 4y agoThere are a couple of states where your not allowed to pump your own gas. Somehow the rest of the states don’t have exploding gas stations problems. Lawmakers must think we are like Zoolander
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- jscheel 4y agoWhere I live, it takes significantly more training hours to become a barber than it does to become a police officer.
- huitzitziltzin 4y agoBecause I taught a piece of Rhode Island’s occupational licensing insanity in my microeconomics class, I’d encourage someone to look up how long Rhode Island spends training its police officers by comparison. I don’t have the figure in front of me but it is A LOT less. Maybe 400 hours?
- Hamuko 4y agoIs there any place in the US where they actually do comprehensive training of police officers? Because here the police officers need to take a three-year program in a vocational university.
- gensym 4y agoIn Chicago there is a multi-month training program, and they are on a probational period for their first year.
- mindslight 4y agoFocusing on training is pointless when the incentives are set up wrong. Hold police officers accountable under the laws they purport to uphold (eg the ones against second degree and third degree murder), and they'll stop immediately reaching for their suspect-stopping remote control. Otherwise training is mainly a lesson in what to say to justify themselves afterwards.
- ryanmcbride 4y agoYup, for as long as cops have a license to kill as long as they remember to say "I was a scared little baby, the bad man was very scawy" the training just doesn't matter. They'll just keep killing until they face consequences.
- scarface74 4y agoAnd then when it’s actually time to “protect and serve” and stop a gunman in a school, they don’t go in because “they are afraid to get shot”
- bennyp101 4y ago"As a place that invokes classic style and traditional masculinity, Rhode Island is a wonderful place to start your career as a barber." What does that even mean?! That whole page just makes me not want to join a barber school!
- CoastalCoder 4y agoI can't even guess. I've lived in Rhode Island, and it's a pretty normal New England culture AFAICT.
- tony_cannistra 4y agoWhat part? I grew up there. Can confirm that as soon as you leave the WASP-y suburbs, dudes in wife beaters and gold crosses on chains really start coming out.
- CoastalCoder 4y agoI'm told there used to be a really strong Italian / Portuguese culture around Providence / Warwick / Bristol. That might be where someone gets the stereotypes about machismo and Roman Catholic jewelry. I suspect this part has changed a lot in recent decades. Not sure "WASP-y" applies much of anywhere in Rhode Island. It's reportedly[0] the most Roman Catholic state in the U.S. Providence strikes me as similar to most other small-medium cities with universities. The folks I've met from the rural areas (mostly Exeter, Charlestown area) seem pretty much like people I've met in other rural areas in New England. I.e., more likely to lean conservative, more self-reliant for daily needs, etc. [0] https://www.wpri.com/news/eyewitness-news-investigates/ri-remains-most-catholic-state-in-the-country/ https://www.wpri.com/news/eyewitness-news-investigates/ri-re...
- reynhout 4y ago> Not sure "WASP-y" applies much of anywhere in Rhode Island. It's reportedly[0] the most Roman Catholic state in the U.S. It definitely does. Barrington, East Greenwich, North Kingstown, Tiverton, Newport, and (parts of) Providence are very white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant. Also relatively high Jewish populations. Rural RI (and most of rural southern New England) is definitely "more" conservative than the suburbs, but it's nothing compared to Rural USA. There's a bit of self-reliance theater going on. Rural northern New Englanders are a bit more committed. And then there's Warwick, Cranston, Johnston, North Providence, Pawtucket, Central Falls. Long history of Italian and Portuguese culture, and the attendant Catholicism. Rhode Island is an interesting mix of cultures. It's also quite beautiful. Most visitors have only seen it from I-95 between NYC and Boston, which is by far the least attractive way to see the area. I miss RI pizza and seafood terribly. Nowhere else in the US really compares. However, I make the conscious trade for better Mexican and Asian food!
- morsch 4y agoIn Germany, it's a three year apprenticeship. You get paid a (rather low) wage during that time. As far as I know, you're not allowed to do the job without completing the apprenticeship. https://www.ausbildung.de/berufe/friseur/ https://www.ausbildung.de/berufe/friseur/ The same is true for many other professions.
- johnhenry 4y agoIt's amazing how much little we trust people to cut out hair, especially when we compare the amount of training required for other things. For instance; in Ohio, the 700 hour training program for teachers to use guns was just paired back to 24.
- coinbasetwwa 4y agoGet rid of them both
- JaimeThompson 4y agoHow is it rational to allow untrained people to have weapons around elementary and other school students?
- raunak 4y agoWhy do they need guns?
- willcipriano 4y agoThe cops will stand outside and let them get murdered, preventing anyone brave enough to attempt a rescue from doing so.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- rjsw 4y agoGive the kids guns, they can practice shooting anyone who comes into the classroom /s.
- InCityDreams 4y ago>How is it rational to allow untrained people to have weapons around elementary and other school students? "...in the USA." I wonder if, when some teacher eventually does go on a spree, the training will allow them to rationally kill more 'than would have been previously expected". Additional gun question. In religious schools would nuns, for example, be expected to be armed?
- hoppyhoppy2 4y agoMy Emergency Medical Technician course was around 120 hours, after which I could begin responding to 911 calls in an ambulance. Although, to be fair, trauma shears have blunt tips.
- _moof 4y ago1500 hours is also the requirement for an airline transport pilot certificate. Seems like a similar level of complexity and risk. /s
- _fat_santa 4y agoI've been in a number of plane crashes and let me tell you, having a bad hair day is much much worse than crashing in a plane /s
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoThe median/typical plane crash is a bump with something on the ground so you're not technically wrong even if you're being sarcastic.
- sam345 4y agoJust because some professional group decides require 1500 hours for licensing to protect their profession monopoly doesn't mean the profession is anymore important then one that requires 100.
- sky-kedge0749 4y agoA lot of barber/cosmetologist training is hands-on with customers while an instructor watches. Also keep in mind that a lot of work on hair can be complicated using dangerous chemicals. If you're a guy who just gets a trim or buzz cut every month you may not appreciate this. A relaxer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxer appointment can take a couple hours and cost well over $100 not including tip even at a run-of-the-mill place. The chemicals can burn skin, or damage hair that took years to grow. Now consider hairdressers need to learn this, and colorizing, and a ton of other things, for many different hair types. This all takes time. The idea that barber/cosmetologist training is some kind of cartel situation is absurd. They make around $20-30/hour.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- s1artibartfast 4y agoThen make them take a day class to use caustic chemicals. No reason you need to know how to handle hazardous chemicals to give the buzz cut
- sky-kedge0749 4y agoYou still need some licensing to ensure people understand the basics, like hygiene, since everyone has an interest in making sure hairdressers won't spread lice or accidentally cut their customers with dirty tools. Most of the money in hairdressing is in the complicated stuff. People do this because they want to make a career of it. Maybe you're imagining some kind of two week training program which outputs someone who does nothing but run a clipper over people's heads all day for $5 each. The economics and incentives for that don't make sense to me. People who want ultra cheap cuts will probably just buy their own clippers anyway.
- s1artibartfast 4y agoI am suggesting that it should be the government's business to ensure hygiene and Public Safety, but not prevent crappy haircuts
- ErikAugust 4y agoProgramming License in Rhode Island (or anywhere else) - Step 1: 0 Hr Training Program
- dahfizz 4y agoWhich is why we have to deal with such intense and annoying interviews...
- kennywinker 4y agoAs I see it, the story here isn't "wow barbers in rhode island have too much power" the story is "why did we abandon them so badly they were driven to this extreme?" This situation exists because barbers managed to organize enough to get their profession enshrined in law in a way that protects their wages. Making a skilled but underpaid profession into a reasonably well paid one. If the US had decent baseline wages and protections for workers, barbers wouldn't have to go to great lengths to protect themselves at the cost of stupid hoops for anyone trying to enter the profession. It's like in a western, where some town on the frontier - ignored by the government and civil society - turns to a gang of outlaws for protection. Extreme circumstances lead to extreme solutions.
- happyopossum 4y agoThere are plenty of states where barbers make good livings without regulatory capture.
- kennywinker 4y agoWhich states are those? Judging from https://www.barber-license.com/ https://www.barber-license.com/ and clicking state by state, the VAST majority of states have 1000+ hour licensing programs. States that don't have an explicit n-hours requirement have wording like "Graduate from a New York State–Approved Barber School" which doesn't sound too different.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- randomcarbloke 4y agoOccupational licensing in the states is utterly absurd, and they have the gall to criticise Brits for the (admittedly poor value) TV license.
- BitwiseFool 4y agoAs an American, the absurdity of the TV License system comes from the fact that the hullabaloo and intrusive enforcement can all be avoided if the BBC was simply funded like any other government program. Sure, it might be "unfair" that people who don't watch the BBC are forced to fund it with a small portion of their taxes, but that seems much better than having government agents snooping around trying to fine people for watching TV without paying.
- randomcarbloke 4y agoYou make it seem a lot more sinister than it is, you get a letter, which you ignore, or simply tell them to FO and then probably never hear from them again.
- arpyzo 4y agoWhy can't we have this for software developers and other computer engineers? I'm really sick of working with engineers that lack basic knowledge about their craft.
- niemandhier 4y agoIn germany you need a 3 year apprenticeship, and to get a „Meisterbrief“ additional 700 h of classes, so this looks normal to me.
- anm89 4y agoI don't know if the German economy is a very high bar to set. And just because someone implements a bad idea doesn't make it "normal"
- T3RMINATED 4y ago
- giantg2 4y agoI wonder how much of this is left over from the days of straight shaves and teeth pulling based on the lobbying of the schools.
- anm89 4y agoA pilot's license requires the same amount of flight time.
- mistrial9 4y ago
- _8j50 4y agoI just my own hair. Not worth the hassle.
- incomingpain 4y agoMy jurisdiction is along the same lines. Recent election gave a majority government to the party whose plan is to nuke this. The government is doing this largely due to a single reason. Barbers/hairdressers are extremely unhealthy to your population. You practically can't have barbers in your society and socialized medicine. It's more of an either or situation. Lets compare and contrast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGEY2vt1mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGEY2vt1mg Traditional korean barber shave. Teapot from disgusting water reservoir? You're getting covid, hiv, and monkeypox from the lather off the side of the stock pot. The standard straight razor with strop? Just look at all the rot? decay? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDlyY63V0Us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDlyY63V0Us Id venture to guess even this mask wearing, glove wearing, perfectly clean, replaceable blades that throw out the hiv from the last client they cut. No lather of death bacteria. Barbecide exists! Ill tell you though, the korean shave will be 100x better.