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Why Palantir Makes My Head Hurt

180 points by skmurphy 15y ago

skmurphy 15y ago
This is an interesting analysis of Palantir. His conclusion: Palantir is a different type of company. Like a system integrator (SI), they have a small sales force, a large field technical staff, solve whole problems, and ask for big checks. Like a software company, they hire world-class engineers and try to capture everything in product. Is Palantir an enterprise software company with no sales, marketing, or services (as they would like to believe) or are they the first SI to figure out how to build a world-class software business as most SI’s aspire? You can argue the difference is just semantics, but I’d argue the latter.
jonah 15y ago
They're a quiet giant.
pnathan 15y ago
I have no knowledge of Palantir worth speaking of, but I do know that traditional engineering services (not by software firms) can charge enormous figures regularly.
fleitz 15y ago
Credible doesn't mean telling the truth, it means being believed. Credibility IS key in marketing, and Palantir makes people believe they are credible enough to hand over a big cheque. And then after they get that cheque they deliver. The person who cut the big cheque doesn't care that Palantir isn't really a billion dollar company, they care that Palantir delivered what they told them they would. The marketing claims are just social proof.
- lawnchair_larry 15y ago
  I am sure their $450k in lobbying helps too. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000055177&cycle=2011 https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00005517... And the fact that their VC firm was the CIA. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125200842406984303.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125200842406984303.html They are a very shady company. Taking big checks from the .gov to "fight terrorism" never works well. But it usually makes a few people very wealthy.
jtchang 15y ago
The article starts with a roast on Palantir's marketing tactics but later brings up some really good points about enterprise software. I think Palantir is closer to a end to end solution for governments. If they are just hiring engineers it means they can pretty much build any product needed to fit a government/corporate spec.
- checker 15y ago
  It's not just that they have a high engineer/sales ratio, they're also hiring top engineers. Not all contractors do this so aggressively, and it can show in the quality of the products they deliver.
ballard 15y ago
Regardless of one's opinion of the company and their track record, the articles establishes that their marketing game rises above all detractors.
bobwise 15y ago
I was about two paragraphs in before I realized that this has nothing to do with Lord of the Rings.
Jd 15y ago
Generally speaking you are correct, but practically speaking I think Palantir is absolutely correct in claiming they are a new kind of company. Their hiring focus from early on has been on top notch engineering talent and even though they have people in forward deployment, they focus their hiring on people who have engineering/comp-sci degrees. Even though in a certain sense there is really little difference between a salesperson and a "sales engineer" as far as their tasking, the difference in mentality is quite different. A sales engineer actually understands the underlying technology and probably has contributed to it in some way, whereas a salesperson relies on distributing hype. I've spent a fair amount of time in major silicon valley firms (including Palantir) and I can say the mentality seems quite different. It is a bunch of brilliant people solving difficult problems. I think in a certain sense their marketing actually isn't that good, since it appeals largely to a technical audience but I couldn't figure out if their core product actually made that much of a difference. How do you measure, for instance, if you catch more terrorists with a certain terrorist-catching tool than another? There wasn't much presented here except cool visual displays that claimed that they were connecting data from across previously distinct data silos. Is that amazing? Not really -- although certainly it is more than the government can probably do effectively internally, so I have some reasonable degree of optimism that they are delivering far over governmental norm and are worth whatever large cheques the government gives them. Full disclosure: I briefly considered working for the company.
- joezydeco 15y ago
  If they managed to lure Michael Lopp (Rands) away from Apple, they must have a special appeal to engineers.
- scott_s 15y ago
  Even though in a certain sense there is really little difference between a salesperson and a "sales engineer" as far as their tasking, the difference in mentality is quite different. A sales engineer actually understands the underlying technology and probably has contributed to it in some way, whereas a salesperson relies on distributing hype. I think you're combining two of his complaints. The salesperson complaint was separate from the sales engineer complaint. The company claim is that they have no services. His point was that the "forward-deployed engineers" do the same thing that "sales engineers" or "consultants" do in other companies. In other words, they have services, they just call it something else.
robjohnson 15y ago
As someone who had close interaction with Palantir through many rounds of their interview process, I can say that they do radiate a cult-likeness. The two most important points seemed to be: you need to be brilliant (not a huge surprise) and that you needed to fit in. (the later still seems very strange and contrarian to the rest of their vision)
- afterburner 15y ago
  Brilliant enough to fake fitting in?
  - krakensden 15y ago
    Don't do that. It can seem like a good idea if you're kind of desperate for a job, but it'll drive you mad.
    - robjohnson 15y ago
      Agreed
    - afterburner 15y ago
      I wouldn't do it, but I see others doing it all the time. Sure, they go mad, but mad becomes the norm for them, and they really want to fit in. If you get enough money from it, you can go on pretending until you die.
tryitnow 15y ago
I don't think anyone can predict where Palantir will go. They seem to be doing a lot of things right, but cult-like environments always have a high downside risk. The one thing that makes me think they are on the right track is that they have the backing of Peter Thiel. Anyone familiar with Thiel's personal philosophy realizes that he's highly individualistic, so let's hope Thiel has enough influence to ensure that Palantir doesn't succumb to groupthink. I wish them well and if they succeed I am sure there will be a lot of spinoff entrepreneurs who go on to do other really cool stuff.
- IsaacL 15y ago
  Sometimes groups of very individualistic people can be especially prone to groupthink - the fact they believe they are not susceptible is what makes them more vulnerable. Example: "Randroids".

180 points by skmurphy 15y ago

This is an interesting analysis of Palantir. His conclusion: Palantir is a different type of company. Like a system integrator (SI), they have a small sales force, a large field technical staff, solve whole problems, and ask for big checks. Like a software company, they hire world-class engineers and try to capture everything in product. Is Palantir an enterprise software company with no sales, marketing, or services (as they would like to believe) or are they the first SI to figure out how to build a world-class software business as most SI’s aspire? You can argue the difference is just semantics, but I’d argue the latter.

jonah 15y ago

They're a quiet giant.

pnathan 15y ago

I have no knowledge of Palantir worth speaking of, but I do know that traditional engineering services (not by software firms) can charge enormous figures regularly.

fleitz 15y ago

Credible doesn't mean telling the truth, it means being believed. Credibility IS key in marketing, and Palantir makes people believe they are credible enough to hand over a big cheque. And then after they get that cheque they deliver. The person who cut the big cheque doesn't care that Palantir isn't really a billion dollar company, they care that Palantir delivered what they told them they would. The marketing claims are just social proof.

lawnchair_larry 15y ago
I am sure their $450k in lobbying helps too. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000055177&cycle=2011 https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00005517... And the fact that their VC firm was the CIA. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125200842406984303.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125200842406984303.html They are a very shady company. Taking big checks from the .gov to "fight terrorism" never works well. But it usually makes a few people very wealthy.

jtchang 15y ago

The article starts with a roast on Palantir's marketing tactics but later brings up some really good points about enterprise software. I think Palantir is closer to a end to end solution for governments. If they are just hiring engineers it means they can pretty much build any product needed to fit a government/corporate spec.

checker 15y ago
It's not just that they have a high engineer/sales ratio, they're also hiring top engineers. Not all contractors do this so aggressively, and it can show in the quality of the products they deliver.

ballard 15y ago

Regardless of one's opinion of the company and their track record, the articles establishes that their marketing game rises above all detractors.

bobwise 15y ago

I was about two paragraphs in before I realized that this has nothing to do with Lord of the Rings.

Jd 15y ago

Generally speaking you are correct, but practically speaking I think Palantir is absolutely correct in claiming they are a new kind of company. Their hiring focus from early on has been on top notch engineering talent and even though they have people in forward deployment, they focus their hiring on people who have engineering/comp-sci degrees. Even though in a certain sense there is really little difference between a salesperson and a "sales engineer" as far as their tasking, the difference in mentality is quite different. A sales engineer actually understands the underlying technology and probably has contributed to it in some way, whereas a salesperson relies on distributing hype. I've spent a fair amount of time in major silicon valley firms (including Palantir) and I can say the mentality seems quite different. It is a bunch of brilliant people solving difficult problems. I think in a certain sense their marketing actually isn't that good, since it appeals largely to a technical audience but I couldn't figure out if their core product actually made that much of a difference. How do you measure, for instance, if you catch more terrorists with a certain terrorist-catching tool than another? There wasn't much presented here except cool visual displays that claimed that they were connecting data from across previously distinct data silos. Is that amazing? Not really -- although certainly it is more than the government can probably do effectively internally, so I have some reasonable degree of optimism that they are delivering far over governmental norm and are worth whatever large cheques the government gives them. Full disclosure: I briefly considered working for the company.

joezydeco 15y ago
If they managed to lure Michael Lopp (Rands) away from Apple, they must have a special appeal to engineers.
scott_s 15y ago
Even though in a certain sense there is really little difference between a salesperson and a "sales engineer" as far as their tasking, the difference in mentality is quite different. A sales engineer actually understands the underlying technology and probably has contributed to it in some way, whereas a salesperson relies on distributing hype. I think you're combining two of his complaints. The salesperson complaint was separate from the sales engineer complaint. The company claim is that they have no services. His point was that the "forward-deployed engineers" do the same thing that "sales engineers" or "consultants" do in other companies. In other words, they have services, they just call it something else.

robjohnson 15y ago

As someone who had close interaction with Palantir through many rounds of their interview process, I can say that they do radiate a cult-likeness. The two most important points seemed to be: you need to be brilliant (not a huge surprise) and that you needed to fit in. (the later still seems very strange and contrarian to the rest of their vision)

afterburner 15y ago
Brilliant enough to fake fitting in?
- krakensden 15y ago
  Don't do that. It can seem like a good idea if you're kind of desperate for a job, but it'll drive you mad.
  - robjohnson 15y ago
    Agreed
  - afterburner 15y ago
    I wouldn't do it, but I see others doing it all the time. Sure, they go mad, but mad becomes the norm for them, and they really want to fit in. If you get enough money from it, you can go on pretending until you die.

tryitnow 15y ago

I don't think anyone can predict where Palantir will go. They seem to be doing a lot of things right, but cult-like environments always have a high downside risk. The one thing that makes me think they are on the right track is that they have the backing of Peter Thiel. Anyone familiar with Thiel's personal philosophy realizes that he's highly individualistic, so let's hope Thiel has enough influence to ensure that Palantir doesn't succumb to groupthink. I wish them well and if they succeed I am sure there will be a lot of spinoff entrepreneurs who go on to do other really cool stuff.

IsaacL 15y ago
Sometimes groups of very individualistic people can be especially prone to groupthink - the fact they believe they are not susceptible is what makes them more vulnerable. Example: "Randroids".