4 ms·

I've been a first hand witness of a coworker accusing another coworker of "microagressions" because they disagreed (passionately, I would add) on how to approac

by daenz 4y ago

I've been a first hand witness of a coworker accusing another coworker of "microagressions" because they disagreed (passionately, I would add) on how to approach a problem. I was privy to the outcome from HR and management as well, which was essentially: "ok, nothing racial was said or suggested, but this person feels a certain way, so be more careful next time." It's really disheartening that people have taken a tool for identifying actual subtle racism and are now using it as a weapon to attempt to tarnish the reputations of others.

pm90 4y ago
Every time there is a discussion about ways to remedy a racial issue there is someone posting a “rebuttal” where the supposed remedy went “too far” anecdotally and generalizing from there. Every. Single. Time. Here’s a suggestion: what if that one exaggerated incident that you observed does not reflect on the reality that most people see? What if we try and see if there is a pattern among the population, using tools we have to measure these things, instead of forming our opinions based on the anecdotes that we observe?
- daenz 4y ago
  My experience isn't "exaggerated", it's the truth, so I'm not sure why you're attempting to diminish it with that language. The conclusion that I am drawing is not that "accusations of microaggressions are invalid because of my experience", it's "I now know that people will deliberately falsely accuse someone, because I've personally witnessed it." Previously, I was inclined to believe accusations. Now, I withhold judgement. There's nothing quite like first hand experience to show what some people can do.
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  - saghm 4y ago
    > My experience isn't "exaggerated", it's the truth, so I'm not sure why you're attempting to diminish it with that language. I think they're saying the incident is exaggerated compared to the norm, i.e. that it's an outlier, not that you're exaggerating in your description. As for the rest of your comment, I think people have made false claims against each other long before the term "microaggression" came about, and it will likely happen long after the term goes out of common use. Given the near infinite flexibility of language, playing vocabulary whackamole likely will be more of a distraction than anything else.
    - toolz 4y ago
      > playing vocabulary whackamole likely will be more of a distraction than anything else exaggerate, as far as I can tell after looking at some dictionaries, never means "more than the norm". It is not a comparison, it is an actor distorting something. I do appreciate the attempt at charitable interpretation, but I don't think you can redefine words from their only meanings just to clear someone from making an accusation.
      - saghm 4y ago
        By "vocabulary whackamole", I meant decrying "microaggressions" as a weapon, not misunderstanding the use of "exaggeration"; I agree that wasn't super clear, but I felt I understood what they meant by it, so I tried to help explain. > exaggerate, as far as I can tell after looking at some dictionaries, never means "more than the norm" Not to nitpick, but it's almost exactly the second definition here[1]: "enlarged or increased beyond the normal : greater than normal" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exaggerated https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exaggerated
        toolz 4y ago
        I stand corrected, I only looked at exaggerate and not the past participle, which apparently does fit your interpretation. Thanks
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  I think it's hard to adopt a purely empirical perspective on social issues like this, because basically everyone experiences the social world through non-statistically-random groups of friends and coworkers. It would be like trying to discuss management or dating using only population level statistics. (If you're familiar with feminist theory, you may recognize this as the idea of "lived experience".)
  - pm90 4y ago
    Fair. I guess my point is that it’s the easiest kind of intellectual fallacy to fall victim to, so it’s worthwhile to question your biases. It’s also the least fulfilling kind of conversation, to reject a solution if you personally observe situations where it doesn’t work. Nothing’s perfect.
- toolz 4y ago
  So you're saying literally every time this topic comes up, you hear anecdotes that the remedy went too far? Sounds like evidence the remedy has gone too far.
  - pm90 4y ago
    Nah, still not evidence of anything, it’s still anecdotes.
    - kareemsabri 4y ago
      Anecdotes are evidence. Somehow "data driven" people got the mistaken idea they aren't.
      - pm90 4y ago
        Data driven people know that the quality of data and how its collected is important and justifiably dismiss anecdotal data which doesn’t meet those standards. GIGO.
        kareemsabri 4y ago
        What is "anecdotal data" and how does it differ from non-anecdotal data? How do data collection methods on something like micro-aggressions ensure no low quality "anecdotal data" gets in? It would be more defensible to claim anecdotes were lower quality evidence than "data" (assuming such a distinction were clear, which I'm not sure it is) than to claim they simply aren't evidence.
- david38 4y ago
  See what you did there. While demanding that people acknowledge the realities of other experiences, you proceed to invalidate his “one exaggerated incident” to silence him. Yet if someone claimed a racial incident, would you be so quick to run to the latest peer reviewed study to verify that this group has victim status and the other group has perp status? Or would you say something along the lines of “believe women”, and “lived experiences are real experiences”? I suppose I could claim generalization in the other direction. Something bad happens to a minority, the offender went out of their way to be aggressive/etc, Every. Single. Time. I can literally say this about any kind of aggression. White-on-white aggression in the burbs, black-on-black in the city, man-on-woman, women-on-man, etc. Here’s a suggestion- what if that one incident you heard fourth hand through the media isn’t always the reality every sees?
  - pm90 4y ago
    > Yet if someone claimed a racial incident, would you be so quick to run to the latest peer reviewed study to verify that this group has victim status and the other group has perp status? Or would you say something along the lines of “believe women”, and “lived experiences are real experiences”? Not an accurate representation of the situation at all. You are going too far in an attempt to make a point, inventing things out of thin air that don’t actually exist. We know that gender biases and mistreatment of women is a real problem. The rhetoric of “believing women” is meant to counter the specific phenomena whereby the experiences of women are ignored or belittled while that of men aren’t. It isn’t a generic device meant to applied to all situations. > I suppose I could claim generalization in the other direction. Something bad happens to a minority, the offender went out of their way to be aggressive/etc, Every. Single. Time. I can literally say this about any kind of aggression. White-on-white aggression in the burbs, black-on-black in the city, man-on-woman, women-on-man, etc. > Here’s a suggestion- what if that one incident you heard fourth hand through the media isn’t always the reality every sees? Here’s a better suggestion: what if we rely less on fourth hand incident reported through the media and instead look at statistical data and studies instead? How about that huh? How about you stop trying so damn hard to both sides the situation, look at the data (not anecdata) on what happens and then use that in your decision making?
pyuser583 4y ago
I was once the “victim” of a “aggression” (more than micro). I brushed it off because frankly I was too focused on my work to care. One of my coworkers who merely witnessed it freaked out. There was screaming and eventually that person quit. It was terrifying. In retrospect I think it was an attempted coup. The person who was freaking out was the obvious choice to replace the person they were trying to get fired.

by daenz 4y ago

pm90 4y ago

Every time there is a discussion about ways to remedy a racial issue there is someone posting a “rebuttal” where the supposed remedy went “too far” anecdotally and generalizing from there. Every. Single. Time. Here’s a suggestion: what if that one exaggerated incident that you observed does not reflect on the reality that most people see? What if we try and see if there is a pattern among the population, using tools we have to measure these things, instead of forming our opinions based on the anecdotes that we observe?

daenz 4y ago
My experience isn't "exaggerated", it's the truth, so I'm not sure why you're attempting to diminish it with that language. The conclusion that I am drawing is not that "accusations of microaggressions are invalid because of my experience", it's "I now know that people will deliberately falsely accuse someone, because I've personally witnessed it." Previously, I was inclined to believe accusations. Now, I withhold judgement. There's nothing quite like first hand experience to show what some people can do.
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- saghm 4y ago
  > My experience isn't "exaggerated", it's the truth, so I'm not sure why you're attempting to diminish it with that language. I think they're saying the incident is exaggerated compared to the norm, i.e. that it's an outlier, not that you're exaggerating in your description. As for the rest of your comment, I think people have made false claims against each other long before the term "microaggression" came about, and it will likely happen long after the term goes out of common use. Given the near infinite flexibility of language, playing vocabulary whackamole likely will be more of a distraction than anything else.
  - toolz 4y ago
    > playing vocabulary whackamole likely will be more of a distraction than anything else exaggerate, as far as I can tell after looking at some dictionaries, never means "more than the norm". It is not a comparison, it is an actor distorting something. I do appreciate the attempt at charitable interpretation, but I don't think you can redefine words from their only meanings just to clear someone from making an accusation.
    - saghm 4y ago
      By "vocabulary whackamole", I meant decrying "microaggressions" as a weapon, not misunderstanding the use of "exaggeration"; I agree that wasn't super clear, but I felt I understood what they meant by it, so I tried to help explain. > exaggerate, as far as I can tell after looking at some dictionaries, never means "more than the norm" Not to nitpick, but it's almost exactly the second definition here[1]: "enlarged or increased beyond the normal : greater than normal" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exaggerated https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exaggerated
      - toolz 4y ago
        I stand corrected, I only looked at exaggerate and not the past participle, which apparently does fit your interpretation. Thanks
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
I think it's hard to adopt a purely empirical perspective on social issues like this, because basically everyone experiences the social world through non-statistically-random groups of friends and coworkers. It would be like trying to discuss management or dating using only population level statistics. (If you're familiar with feminist theory, you may recognize this as the idea of "lived experience".)
- pm90 4y ago
  Fair. I guess my point is that it’s the easiest kind of intellectual fallacy to fall victim to, so it’s worthwhile to question your biases. It’s also the least fulfilling kind of conversation, to reject a solution if you personally observe situations where it doesn’t work. Nothing’s perfect.
toolz 4y ago
So you're saying literally every time this topic comes up, you hear anecdotes that the remedy went too far? Sounds like evidence the remedy has gone too far.
- pm90 4y ago
  Nah, still not evidence of anything, it’s still anecdotes.
  - kareemsabri 4y ago
    Anecdotes are evidence. Somehow "data driven" people got the mistaken idea they aren't.
    - pm90 4y ago
      Data driven people know that the quality of data and how its collected is important and justifiably dismiss anecdotal data which doesn’t meet those standards. GIGO.
      - kareemsabri 4y ago
        What is "anecdotal data" and how does it differ from non-anecdotal data? How do data collection methods on something like micro-aggressions ensure no low quality "anecdotal data" gets in? It would be more defensible to claim anecdotes were lower quality evidence than "data" (assuming such a distinction were clear, which I'm not sure it is) than to claim they simply aren't evidence.
david38 4y ago
See what you did there. While demanding that people acknowledge the realities of other experiences, you proceed to invalidate his “one exaggerated incident” to silence him. Yet if someone claimed a racial incident, would you be so quick to run to the latest peer reviewed study to verify that this group has victim status and the other group has perp status? Or would you say something along the lines of “believe women”, and “lived experiences are real experiences”? I suppose I could claim generalization in the other direction. Something bad happens to a minority, the offender went out of their way to be aggressive/etc, Every. Single. Time. I can literally say this about any kind of aggression. White-on-white aggression in the burbs, black-on-black in the city, man-on-woman, women-on-man, etc. Here’s a suggestion- what if that one incident you heard fourth hand through the media isn’t always the reality every sees?
- pm90 4y ago
  > Yet if someone claimed a racial incident, would you be so quick to run to the latest peer reviewed study to verify that this group has victim status and the other group has perp status? Or would you say something along the lines of “believe women”, and “lived experiences are real experiences”? Not an accurate representation of the situation at all. You are going too far in an attempt to make a point, inventing things out of thin air that don’t actually exist. We know that gender biases and mistreatment of women is a real problem. The rhetoric of “believing women” is meant to counter the specific phenomena whereby the experiences of women are ignored or belittled while that of men aren’t. It isn’t a generic device meant to applied to all situations. > I suppose I could claim generalization in the other direction. Something bad happens to a minority, the offender went out of their way to be aggressive/etc, Every. Single. Time. I can literally say this about any kind of aggression. White-on-white aggression in the burbs, black-on-black in the city, man-on-woman, women-on-man, etc. > Here’s a suggestion- what if that one incident you heard fourth hand through the media isn’t always the reality every sees? Here’s a better suggestion: what if we rely less on fourth hand incident reported through the media and instead look at statistical data and studies instead? How about that huh? How about you stop trying so damn hard to both sides the situation, look at the data (not anecdata) on what happens and then use that in your decision making?

pyuser583 4y ago

I was once the “victim” of a “aggression” (more than micro). I brushed it off because frankly I was too focused on my work to care. One of my coworkers who merely witnessed it freaked out. There was screaming and eventually that person quit. It was terrifying. In retrospect I think it was an attempted coup. The person who was freaking out was the obvious choice to replace the person they were trying to get fired.