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It depends on the website and the wallet, but either way the wallet app tells you what permissions it's giving the website. My guess is people don't pay attenti

by zeven7 4y ago

It depends on the website and the wallet, but either way the wallet app tells you what permissions it's giving the website. My guess is people don't pay attention or think about it. But it's not as parent described "the way the crypto community designed it". It's actually the opposite. The crypto community designed wallets that give you control over what third parties are allowed to do with your accounts. It's a lot more than what debit cards offer (I say debit cards because credit cards do of course offer a good rollback system).

api 4y ago
> My guess is people don't pay attention or think about it. This is a well known fact in secure system design. Most people just click through dialogs. If you must get their attention you have to make the dialog huge and scary but then people will usually just turn back instead of reading. Scary dialogs make it seem like you should never say OK.
- a4isms 4y ago
  And not just secure system design. “Undo” is powerful in any app, not just because it can roll a change back with a single click, but because scary dialog boxes (“Really, really REALLY delete this file? It can not be recovered once deleted, so check this box saying you know what you’re doing before clicking OK”) don’t work for regular apps, either.
  - worksonmine 4y ago
    How would you undo a crypto transfer, and is that a feature that fits in that system?
    - zeven7 4y ago
      There are ways it could be built into the contract. But most don't support that operation today.
      - worksonmine 4y ago
        On whose authority and why? In this case the customer was promised a product they didn't get. And with traditional banking usually it's the other way around, businesses have to live with chargebacks for products they sell to people with stolen card info. Always someone getting burned, but in this case it's the "idiots" for lack of better word. Don't try to make cryptocurrencies work like fiat, that's exactly the kind of problems they're trying to solve. And let's say someone implements your solution, years later you will read how a bad actor did a chargeback for all the coins in those contracts and you will claim it was a retarded feature from the start.
        zeven7 4y ago
        > There are ways You didn't even explore any of the options for different types of "undo" operations that could be possible in contracts. You seemed to simply assume recreating the exact same situation that exists in traditional finance and responded based on that. There are several other ways of doing it that I can think of, all with their own pros and cons. There are even a couple that have already been applied in crypto that I can think of and I'm sure many that I'm not aware of. And why would you assume I even meant "reimplement traditional chargebacks as they are today"? My recommendation: Hold off on forming strong opinions too early in the process of learning about something.
        worksonmine 4y ago
        How about an example? I still don't see how it's possible in a decentralized system but go ahead prove me wrong. I'm not trying to be offensive I'm genuinely curious.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
xwolfi 4y ago
But debit cards are protected and cant be used without several factors authentication. At least mine is.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sdenton4 4y ago
Last year I had about $6k stolen via a compromised debit card and spent on some fly-by-night crypto exchange. The money was rolled back to me by the bank; no idea what happened on the crypto exchange side.
- zeven7 4y ago
  Maybe you have a good bank. Or maybe I've just received incorrect information about the differences between a credit and debit card.
  - cstejerean 4y ago
    The difference is with a debit card you are out the money until it gets resolved. With a credit card you aren’t. But most banks will extend the same fraud protections regardless.
    - dlubarov 4y ago
      To be clear though, if the issuer doesn't impose its own limitations on cardholders' liability, there are still limitations based on Federal laws, and these are different for credit and debit cards. For credit cards it's a simple "liability shall not exceed $50" rule. For debit cards it depends; it can be unlimited in the case of "failure of the consumer to report within sixty days". So it's safest to just avoid debit cards, unless you know that the issuer has their own legally-binding limits on cardholder liability.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      I think debit cards are more variable with bank and perhaps jurisdiction - credit cards somewhat naturally come with such protection since as a user your agreement is with the issuer (and hand wave, hand wave, ability to authorise payments) not the vendor.
  - leesalminen 4y ago
    I think it depends on whether the PIN was entered if not. If entered, the transaction happens on the Maestro et. al. network and you can’t do chargebacks. If no PIN was entered, the transaction happens on Visa/MC systems and you can chargeback.

by zeven7 4y ago

api 4y ago

> My guess is people don't pay attention or think about it. This is a well known fact in secure system design. Most people just click through dialogs. If you must get their attention you have to make the dialog huge and scary but then people will usually just turn back instead of reading. Scary dialogs make it seem like you should never say OK.

a4isms 4y ago
And not just secure system design. “Undo” is powerful in any app, not just because it can roll a change back with a single click, but because scary dialog boxes (“Really, really REALLY delete this file? It can not be recovered once deleted, so check this box saying you know what you’re doing before clicking OK”) don’t work for regular apps, either.
- worksonmine 4y ago
  How would you undo a crypto transfer, and is that a feature that fits in that system?
  - zeven7 4y ago
    There are ways it could be built into the contract. But most don't support that operation today.
    - worksonmine 4y ago
      On whose authority and why? In this case the customer was promised a product they didn't get. And with traditional banking usually it's the other way around, businesses have to live with chargebacks for products they sell to people with stolen card info. Always someone getting burned, but in this case it's the "idiots" for lack of better word. Don't try to make cryptocurrencies work like fiat, that's exactly the kind of problems they're trying to solve. And let's say someone implements your solution, years later you will read how a bad actor did a chargeback for all the coins in those contracts and you will claim it was a retarded feature from the start.
      - zeven7 4y ago
        > There are ways You didn't even explore any of the options for different types of "undo" operations that could be possible in contracts. You seemed to simply assume recreating the exact same situation that exists in traditional finance and responded based on that. There are several other ways of doing it that I can think of, all with their own pros and cons. There are even a couple that have already been applied in crypto that I can think of and I'm sure many that I'm not aware of. And why would you assume I even meant "reimplement traditional chargebacks as they are today"? My recommendation: Hold off on forming strong opinions too early in the process of learning about something.
        worksonmine 4y ago
        How about an example? I still don't see how it's possible in a decentralized system but go ahead prove me wrong. I'm not trying to be offensive I'm genuinely curious.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

xwolfi 4y ago

But debit cards are protected and cant be used without several factors authentication. At least mine is.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sdenton4 4y ago

Last year I had about $6k stolen via a compromised debit card and spent on some fly-by-night crypto exchange. The money was rolled back to me by the bank; no idea what happened on the crypto exchange side.

zeven7 4y ago
Maybe you have a good bank. Or maybe I've just received incorrect information about the differences between a credit and debit card.
- cstejerean 4y ago
  The difference is with a debit card you are out the money until it gets resolved. With a credit card you aren’t. But most banks will extend the same fraud protections regardless.
  - dlubarov 4y ago
    To be clear though, if the issuer doesn't impose its own limitations on cardholders' liability, there are still limitations based on Federal laws, and these are different for credit and debit cards. For credit cards it's a simple "liability shall not exceed $50" rule. For debit cards it depends; it can be unlimited in the case of "failure of the consumer to report within sixty days". So it's safest to just avoid debit cards, unless you know that the issuer has their own legally-binding limits on cardholder liability.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    I think debit cards are more variable with bank and perhaps jurisdiction - credit cards somewhat naturally come with such protection since as a user your agreement is with the issuer (and hand wave, hand wave, ability to authorise payments) not the vendor.
- leesalminen 4y ago
  I think it depends on whether the PIN was entered if not. If entered, the transaction happens on the Maestro et. al. network and you can’t do chargebacks. If no PIN was entered, the transaction happens on Visa/MC systems and you can chargeback.