6 ms·

Warning: nerd trap. Low wages, horrendous deadlines (tapeout), hard work. Perhaps this has changed, given that we're in a semiconductor boom cycle now, but I h

Warning: nerd trap. Low wages, horrendous deadlines (tapeout), hard work. Perhaps this has changed, given that we're in a semiconductor boom cycle now, but I have my doubts. When SMIC started trying to poach TSMC talent, the response was not to make pay competitive (or even half decent), let alone in line with the massive geopolitically-relevant value being created. No, the response was a mask-off legislative crackdown to keep the nerds in line. In the US, there were only two big employers, and they were definitely paying what they could get away with. Anyone who is considering this career -- any career, but this one especially -- before you jump, please get the perspective of someone in industry who isn't trying to sell you a career.

gyc 4y ago
My dad was a EE professor specializing in semiconductor fabrication and he warned me away from a career working at semiconductor labs. He has warned me about every single warning of this post.
rockostrich 4y ago
I went into a master's program at SUNY CNSE back in 2014 for "nanoscale engineering" hoping to do some research in MEMS/NEMS. Turns out there were no research spots available with the groups working on that stuff so I ended up in a group working on EUV photoresists. I ended up not doing much actual "nanoscale research" and mostly just did some data science/engineering for the group since all the data processing code they had took 10+ hours to run for each experiment trial. I fixed that code to run in under 10 minutes and decided I should probably just start looking for jobs in software. Couldn't be happier. Every person I interacted with in the semiconductor space was either an academic who was stuck in a lab 12+ hours a day or some line manager for Intel/IBM/TSMC/etc. that was on-call 24/7 if something went wrong. Both of those sounded terrible to me regardless of the pay.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  If they paid me to be on-call as much as they payed my father (doctor) to be on-call, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Maybe I would have regretted it in 10 years -- he sure did -- but I'd have loved it for a while. Terrible pay and terrible hours and long school and hard work is just irredeemable.
- scrlk 4y ago
  This reminds me of my path: wanted to study EE because I thought that designing chips, working in a fab etc. would be cool, started studying EE and realised I would need to get a PhD to do the more interesting work (frankly I'm not smart enough to do a PhD), plus tepid job prospects in the UK. Ended up as a power systems engineer, which is the complete opposite in terms of scale from semiconductors!
- bluelan949 4y ago
  Likewise, I graduated from a very similar program to CNSE. It was a program attached to the main engineering school. The work seemed so interesting and I felt I would end up doing impactful research. That was until I did an internship following a grad student doing work on solar cells. Every day was sitting 8+ hours in one room doing CVD then XRD. It was soul crushing. I realized the program was more of a PhD-prep program and most people I know who graduated and didn’t go for a PhD either 1) went into software or 2) work as some menial process engineer working the “assembly line” with no meaningful upwards mobility.
  - lcvw 4y ago
    Intel (and similar fab companies as well) is famous for even treating it’s phds as menial process engineers. When I graduated the only Intel fab jobs I was qualified for were in Indonesia or some other SE Asian country, and descriptions were basically “you are the SEM person, you do SEM all day.” I know a surprising amount of people who came out of CNSE (without following up with grad school) and are now landscapers, waiters, or similar. The skillset is so specialized as to be almost worthless unless you can find the right role imo. Also the program there CNSE/SUNY Poly is absolute hot garbage, I advise active looking at this field to go into conventional EE, ChemE, or Materials.
    - hackernews1134 4y ago
      What is SEM? What does doing SEM all day entail?
      - namibj 4y ago
        Scanning electron microscope, I assume. And it's basically getting samples prepped and operating the microscope stage and image controls (focus, contrast, etc.). Sounds like it quickly gets boring. I expect in less than one week.
- lcvw 4y ago
  CNSE class of 2017. The usual career progression of people I talked to was: get a phd, work 12 hour shifts (including nights), be underpaid because you “are not an expert yet”, be fired after 2 years because the company abruptly changed technologies and didn’t need you anymore. Repeat steps 2-4 until you eventually get frustrated enough to leave the field. So yeah I do software now.
- IMECASeek 4y ago
  Hi there, I'm a PhD candidate major in photoresist. I just wonder what kind of software company would hire us and are there any must-have abilities like program languages if I want to get a job in software?
m463 4y ago
I don't understand the field, but it seems to me that chip design is becoming more democratized. Everybody's designing a chip nowadays. Is a foundry the only employer?
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  Different sub-professions. Digital design vs mixed signal vs device physics & such. Last time I had close contact with the industry, digital design indeed was a bit more competitive and correspondingly it was the only one considered to have good career prospects -- but the offers were still between shabby and embarrassing next to entry level SWE, even outside the bay area. This could have changed.
- binbag 4y ago
  I don't think everyone's designing a chip. They might be putting together chips to create boards, but chip design is something else altogether, right down in the architecture of memory and transistors etc.
- acomjean 4y ago
  My partner designed chips (for printers..) It takes a lot of money to design and fab a chip (her company was fabless). They synopsys or Magma software they used for design/layout was crazy expensive. (if you can't find a price....) https://www.synopsys.com https://www.synopsys.com Then you have to manufacture. There is a significant cost for custom chips. Though once you get going the per chip cost is pretty low, thus the business lends itself to a few large players.
Melatonic 4y ago
This honestly sounds like there is some real shady shit going on behind the scenes by the heads of these two companies. Reminds me of the whole VFX / software engineering union debacle with Steve Jobs / Lucas / etc that eventually came out and was super duper illegal.
- rprospero 4y ago
  I’d love to hear more about that debacle, but everything I’m finding is just another Jobs-Pixar hagiography. Any pointers on how to learn more?
  - krallja 4y ago
    https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-of-Wage-Hiring-Conspiracy-in-Law.aspx https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-o...
- Hammershaft 4y ago
  Amazing, so Steve Jobs was involved in TWO conspiracies to fix wages!? https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-of-Wage-Hiring-Conspiracy-in-Law.aspx https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-o... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/04/apple-google-settle-wage-fixing-hiring-case https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/04/apple-googl... How about instead of idolizing people like this we charge them with felonies and put them in prison?
  - dinvlad 4y ago
    Meaty! Thanks for sharing.. At this point, it's pretty clear universally everyone within the top management ranks of big companies are sociopaths with money mania. All while feeding the lower ranks and the public beautiful stories about their juggernauts and the humble beginnings.
asurty 4y ago
TLDR: band gaps are not for the feint of heard :D
- mindcrime 4y ago
  "The answer's not in the box, it's in the band."
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  It's easy, you just grab each electron firmly using pliers and carefully move them closer together. Be sure you have a proper angstrom ruler to make sure they're the right distance.
bushbaba 4y ago
When in University, Intel gave a presentation. They stated the same facts that the Semi industry will be low waged, hard work, and require MULTIPLE PHDs. That presentation gave me enough information to recognize that I really didn't want to be in the semi-industry.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  Intel turned the screws so hard on their employees that the market actually punished them for it. That never happens, but Intel went so far beyond the pale that it did. A mentor of mine hit his breaking point when they split/bankrupt/acquired his team to discharge pension obligations. Real nasty stuff. He said everyone was retiring, "good luck with the next node" (10nm) -- which I discounted as sour grapes on account of Intel appearing invincible at the time, but wow have the years cast that story in a different light.
- plonk 4y ago
  > require MULTIPLE PHDs Was that a joke? What's the point of doing two PhDs in the same field? That's like 12 years wasted. 1/8th of your life.
  - bushbaba 4y ago
    Nope. They said they employed folks with a PHD in Electrical Engineering who also had a PHD in Chemical Engineering or similar field.
    - nurspouse 4y ago
      While such people may exist at Intel, it's not at all the norm, and to be frank, doesn't improve your chances of getting a job there. (Worked at Intel and along with fab/process folks for a bunch of years).
    - plonk 4y ago
      Just do a PhD in electrochemical engineering and be done with it. Aren't there labs that focus on chip manufacturing and would allow students to work on the intersection?
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
EE in general is a problematic career path in the US. Microelectronics is more so due to the even more limited employment options. All but a few niche fab operators are multinationals and you're directly competing with cheaper offshore labor. Government initiatives aren't going to change this arrangement.
- ajb 4y ago
  EE isn't only working at a fab. Most EE's I know work at fabless design houses and make a good living, albeit with some crunch periods. I think it's the chemists who are stuck with the fabs.
nurspouse 4y ago
I worked at Intel, and with process/fab people for a number of years. Everything you're seeing in the comments is true. Compensation is not that bad. Clearly, it'll not pay SW salaries - no engineering does. But if you're a fab person, you'll work long hours, be on call often (and you will get woken up often), and eventually will own a tool that you'll be responsible for, even when not on call. Lots of abusive and pathological behavior, as well. And they often block internal transfers so you're basically trapped. People with other skills (e.g. SW) get out. The rest are stuck, because they have, for example, a chemistry PhD and no other company will pay more. See this thread from a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027143
- whacim 4y ago
  There are also some indications that Washington is increasingly viewing semiconductors as a national security issue. There could be a shift in federal funding that could make the industry more attractive to talent again.
  - nurspouse 4y ago
    The industry doesn't have a talent shortage, which explains the working conditions. There will always be grad students who think "Cool! I get to do research involving quantum mechanics!" Trust me, I've tried to talk them out of it and never succeeded.
- smaddox 4y ago
  I agree with all of this, unfortunately. I worked for Intel for two years after graduating with a PhD in EE. I learned a lot from the experience, but I can't recommend it. I work in software, now. The PhD was great, though. I loved doing semiconductor research. But make sure you work with a professor who is very good at fund raising.
- irrational 4y ago
  > Clearly, it'll not pay SW salaries - no engineering does. For some reason, I assumed that in order to be a chip designer you had to be as good at programming as a developer. Then I became friends with two intel chip designers/engineers and was surprised that neither knew much of anything about programming, despite both having multiple PhDs in their fields. That's when I began realizing that engineering and programming are 2 entirely different fields that have little overlap.
gtvwill 4y ago
How do smart folks wind up in such crappy employment conditions? Like seriously are they not unionised or something?
baybal2 4y ago
I wanted to go into semi 2007-2009. Fortunately, I stumbled on two one very senior TSMC engineers who kind of became informal mentors to me, and they talked me off. And by the way were with Morris Chang at ITRI. Points they told: 1. A mandatory PhD just to get at internship 2. Few years of unpaid internship needed to get a coffee porter job, before you are let anywhere close to the process 3. A postdoc is required to get a real R&D cred 4. 7-10 years in R&D sweatshop before any real promotion 5. Get very lucky 6. In 20-30 years of career, you can get to a VP level, where you can hold the company by the balls with critical knowledge. Then... and only then, you will look up to a 7 digit salary.
passivate 4y ago
A lot of human progress in core sciences and engineering is on the backs of people toiling the midnight hours on sheer passion for little monetary reward. We owe a great debt of gratitude towards them. In any commercial organization, there are tremendous pressures in high-investment, super high-risk projects and anyone can trivially find things that are wrong with the current system. The much more difficult challenge is showing an alternate path that is superior - based on the results it achieves. The times when you see the ugly behavior of people are times of desperation. Online commenters expend a lot of effort point out how to improve things by "proving" it by linking to random studies - but the more persuasive argument is by implementing those changes in the real world. "Talk is cheap, show me the code." ;)
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  Sure thing! I've got your alternate path that is superior right here: see, first I give the semiconductor industry a big fat middle finger, and then I go work for somebody who fucking pays me. This code is working great!
  - passivate 4y ago
    Heh, I got a chuckle out of that :) Thanks for sharing.
sinenomine 4y ago
Relevant economical pattern: https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement
WiSaGaN 4y ago
I suspect the reason is that semiconductor industry relies much heavier on captial (comparing to talents) than software industry given the same level of risk. One or two talented software enginners can bootstrap a company with reasonable amount of success that can be a good indictor of future larger success. You can't do that in semiconductor industry.
Spooky23 4y ago
I worked in a semiconductor school at a tenant organization. When the crunch was on, the parking lot was full at midnight before Christmas. Pay was not so great as judged by the cars. The other thing was that the workforce was split - you were either old or young. If you want to make money in semiconductors, find a place they are building fabs and become a plumber or electrician. Those are the folks who make money, and often there’s security clearance requirements that adds job security.

gyc 4y ago

My dad was a EE professor specializing in semiconductor fabrication and he warned me away from a career working at semiconductor labs. He has warned me about every single warning of this post.

rockostrich 4y ago

I went into a master's program at SUNY CNSE back in 2014 for "nanoscale engineering" hoping to do some research in MEMS/NEMS. Turns out there were no research spots available with the groups working on that stuff so I ended up in a group working on EUV photoresists. I ended up not doing much actual "nanoscale research" and mostly just did some data science/engineering for the group since all the data processing code they had took 10+ hours to run for each experiment trial. I fixed that code to run in under 10 minutes and decided I should probably just start looking for jobs in software. Couldn't be happier. Every person I interacted with in the semiconductor space was either an academic who was stuck in a lab 12+ hours a day or some line manager for Intel/IBM/TSMC/etc. that was on-call 24/7 if something went wrong. Both of those sounded terrible to me regardless of the pay.

jjoonathan 4y ago
If they paid me to be on-call as much as they payed my father (doctor) to be on-call, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Maybe I would have regretted it in 10 years -- he sure did -- but I'd have loved it for a while. Terrible pay and terrible hours and long school and hard work is just irredeemable.
scrlk 4y ago
This reminds me of my path: wanted to study EE because I thought that designing chips, working in a fab etc. would be cool, started studying EE and realised I would need to get a PhD to do the more interesting work (frankly I'm not smart enough to do a PhD), plus tepid job prospects in the UK. Ended up as a power systems engineer, which is the complete opposite in terms of scale from semiconductors!
bluelan949 4y ago
Likewise, I graduated from a very similar program to CNSE. It was a program attached to the main engineering school. The work seemed so interesting and I felt I would end up doing impactful research. That was until I did an internship following a grad student doing work on solar cells. Every day was sitting 8+ hours in one room doing CVD then XRD. It was soul crushing. I realized the program was more of a PhD-prep program and most people I know who graduated and didn’t go for a PhD either 1) went into software or 2) work as some menial process engineer working the “assembly line” with no meaningful upwards mobility.
- lcvw 4y ago
  Intel (and similar fab companies as well) is famous for even treating it’s phds as menial process engineers. When I graduated the only Intel fab jobs I was qualified for were in Indonesia or some other SE Asian country, and descriptions were basically “you are the SEM person, you do SEM all day.” I know a surprising amount of people who came out of CNSE (without following up with grad school) and are now landscapers, waiters, or similar. The skillset is so specialized as to be almost worthless unless you can find the right role imo. Also the program there CNSE/SUNY Poly is absolute hot garbage, I advise active looking at this field to go into conventional EE, ChemE, or Materials.
  - hackernews1134 4y ago
    What is SEM? What does doing SEM all day entail?
    - namibj 4y ago
      Scanning electron microscope, I assume. And it's basically getting samples prepped and operating the microscope stage and image controls (focus, contrast, etc.). Sounds like it quickly gets boring. I expect in less than one week.
lcvw 4y ago
CNSE class of 2017. The usual career progression of people I talked to was: get a phd, work 12 hour shifts (including nights), be underpaid because you “are not an expert yet”, be fired after 2 years because the company abruptly changed technologies and didn’t need you anymore. Repeat steps 2-4 until you eventually get frustrated enough to leave the field. So yeah I do software now.
IMECASeek 4y ago
Hi there, I'm a PhD candidate major in photoresist. I just wonder what kind of software company would hire us and are there any must-have abilities like program languages if I want to get a job in software?

m463 4y ago

I don't understand the field, but it seems to me that chip design is becoming more democratized. Everybody's designing a chip nowadays. Is a foundry the only employer?

jjoonathan 4y ago
Different sub-professions. Digital design vs mixed signal vs device physics & such. Last time I had close contact with the industry, digital design indeed was a bit more competitive and correspondingly it was the only one considered to have good career prospects -- but the offers were still between shabby and embarrassing next to entry level SWE, even outside the bay area. This could have changed.
binbag 4y ago
I don't think everyone's designing a chip. They might be putting together chips to create boards, but chip design is something else altogether, right down in the architecture of memory and transistors etc.
acomjean 4y ago
My partner designed chips (for printers..) It takes a lot of money to design and fab a chip (her company was fabless). They synopsys or Magma software they used for design/layout was crazy expensive. (if you can't find a price....) https://www.synopsys.com https://www.synopsys.com Then you have to manufacture. There is a significant cost for custom chips. Though once you get going the per chip cost is pretty low, thus the business lends itself to a few large players.

Melatonic 4y ago

This honestly sounds like there is some real shady shit going on behind the scenes by the heads of these two companies. Reminds me of the whole VFX / software engineering union debacle with Steve Jobs / Lucas / etc that eventually came out and was super duper illegal.

rprospero 4y ago
I’d love to hear more about that debacle, but everything I’m finding is just another Jobs-Pixar hagiography. Any pointers on how to learn more?
- krallja 4y ago
  https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-of-Wage-Hiring-Conspiracy-in-Law.aspx https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-o...
Hammershaft 4y ago
Amazing, so Steve Jobs was involved in TWO conspiracies to fix wages!? https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-of-Wage-Hiring-Conspiracy-in-Law.aspx https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-Accused-o... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/04/apple-google-settle-wage-fixing-hiring-case https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/04/apple-googl... How about instead of idolizing people like this we charge them with felonies and put them in prison?
- dinvlad 4y ago
  Meaty! Thanks for sharing.. At this point, it's pretty clear universally everyone within the top management ranks of big companies are sociopaths with money mania. All while feeding the lower ranks and the public beautiful stories about their juggernauts and the humble beginnings.

asurty 4y ago

TLDR: band gaps are not for the feint of heard :D

mindcrime 4y ago
"The answer's not in the box, it's in the band."
phendrenad2 4y ago
It's easy, you just grab each electron firmly using pliers and carefully move them closer together. Be sure you have a proper angstrom ruler to make sure they're the right distance.

bushbaba 4y ago

When in University, Intel gave a presentation. They stated the same facts that the Semi industry will be low waged, hard work, and require MULTIPLE PHDs. That presentation gave me enough information to recognize that I really didn't want to be in the semi-industry.

jjoonathan 4y ago
Intel turned the screws so hard on their employees that the market actually punished them for it. That never happens, but Intel went so far beyond the pale that it did. A mentor of mine hit his breaking point when they split/bankrupt/acquired his team to discharge pension obligations. Real nasty stuff. He said everyone was retiring, "good luck with the next node" (10nm) -- which I discounted as sour grapes on account of Intel appearing invincible at the time, but wow have the years cast that story in a different light.
plonk 4y ago
> require MULTIPLE PHDs Was that a joke? What's the point of doing two PhDs in the same field? That's like 12 years wasted. 1/8th of your life.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  Nope. They said they employed folks with a PHD in Electrical Engineering who also had a PHD in Chemical Engineering or similar field.
  - nurspouse 4y ago
    While such people may exist at Intel, it's not at all the norm, and to be frank, doesn't improve your chances of getting a job there. (Worked at Intel and along with fab/process folks for a bunch of years).
  - plonk 4y ago
    Just do a PhD in electrochemical engineering and be done with it. Aren't there labs that focus on chip manufacturing and would allow students to work on the intersection?

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

EE in general is a problematic career path in the US. Microelectronics is more so due to the even more limited employment options. All but a few niche fab operators are multinationals and you're directly competing with cheaper offshore labor. Government initiatives aren't going to change this arrangement.

ajb 4y ago
EE isn't only working at a fab. Most EE's I know work at fabless design houses and make a good living, albeit with some crunch periods. I think it's the chemists who are stuck with the fabs.

nurspouse 4y ago

I worked at Intel, and with process/fab people for a number of years. Everything you're seeing in the comments is true. Compensation is not that bad. Clearly, it'll not pay SW salaries - no engineering does. But if you're a fab person, you'll work long hours, be on call often (and you will get woken up often), and eventually will own a tool that you'll be responsible for, even when not on call. Lots of abusive and pathological behavior, as well. And they often block internal transfers so you're basically trapped. People with other skills (e.g. SW) get out. The rest are stuck, because they have, for example, a chemistry PhD and no other company will pay more. See this thread from a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027143

whacim 4y ago
There are also some indications that Washington is increasingly viewing semiconductors as a national security issue. There could be a shift in federal funding that could make the industry more attractive to talent again.
- nurspouse 4y ago
  The industry doesn't have a talent shortage, which explains the working conditions. There will always be grad students who think "Cool! I get to do research involving quantum mechanics!" Trust me, I've tried to talk them out of it and never succeeded.
smaddox 4y ago
I agree with all of this, unfortunately. I worked for Intel for two years after graduating with a PhD in EE. I learned a lot from the experience, but I can't recommend it. I work in software, now. The PhD was great, though. I loved doing semiconductor research. But make sure you work with a professor who is very good at fund raising.
irrational 4y ago
> Clearly, it'll not pay SW salaries - no engineering does. For some reason, I assumed that in order to be a chip designer you had to be as good at programming as a developer. Then I became friends with two intel chip designers/engineers and was surprised that neither knew much of anything about programming, despite both having multiple PhDs in their fields. That's when I began realizing that engineering and programming are 2 entirely different fields that have little overlap.

gtvwill 4y ago

How do smart folks wind up in such crappy employment conditions? Like seriously are they not unionised or something?

baybal2 4y ago

I wanted to go into semi 2007-2009. Fortunately, I stumbled on two one very senior TSMC engineers who kind of became informal mentors to me, and they talked me off. And by the way were with Morris Chang at ITRI. Points they told: 1. A mandatory PhD just to get at internship 2. Few years of unpaid internship needed to get a coffee porter job, before you are let anywhere close to the process 3. A postdoc is required to get a real R&D cred 4. 7-10 years in R&D sweatshop before any real promotion 5. Get very lucky 6. In 20-30 years of career, you can get to a VP level, where you can hold the company by the balls with critical knowledge. Then... and only then, you will look up to a 7 digit salary.

passivate 4y ago

A lot of human progress in core sciences and engineering is on the backs of people toiling the midnight hours on sheer passion for little monetary reward. We owe a great debt of gratitude towards them. In any commercial organization, there are tremendous pressures in high-investment, super high-risk projects and anyone can trivially find things that are wrong with the current system. The much more difficult challenge is showing an alternate path that is superior - based on the results it achieves. The times when you see the ugly behavior of people are times of desperation. Online commenters expend a lot of effort point out how to improve things by "proving" it by linking to random studies - but the more persuasive argument is by implementing those changes in the real world. "Talk is cheap, show me the code." ;)

jjoonathan 4y ago
Sure thing! I've got your alternate path that is superior right here: see, first I give the semiconductor industry a big fat middle finger, and then I go work for somebody who fucking pays me. This code is working great!
- passivate 4y ago
  Heh, I got a chuckle out of that :) Thanks for sharing.

sinenomine 4y ago

Relevant economical pattern: https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement

WiSaGaN 4y ago

I suspect the reason is that semiconductor industry relies much heavier on captial (comparing to talents) than software industry given the same level of risk. One or two talented software enginners can bootstrap a company with reasonable amount of success that can be a good indictor of future larger success. You can't do that in semiconductor industry.

Spooky23 4y ago

I worked in a semiconductor school at a tenant organization. When the crunch was on, the parking lot was full at midnight before Christmas. Pay was not so great as judged by the cars. The other thing was that the workforce was split - you were either old or young. If you want to make money in semiconductors, find a place they are building fabs and become a plumber or electrician. Those are the folks who make money, and often there’s security clearance requirements that adds job security.