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I don’t know that much about Japan, so forgive me, but I was under the impression that in Japan there was a lot of shame attached to sex, and sexuality. Could

I don’t know that much about Japan, so forgive me, but I was under the impression that in Japan there was a lot of shame attached to sex, and sexuality. Could the view on sex, particularly casual sex, impact dating?

bashmelek 4y ago
I’d actually take the opposite approach—-keep sex as something within a committed relationship/marriage, and keep dating as something with purposeful intent for finding such a partner. What may be missing, though, is a sense of connection with one’s neighbors.
- FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
  There is something to what you're saying. The expectation of sex does "up the ante" for dating, and, paradoxically, may reduce the overall amount of dating that happens. In the old days, there was a stigma on sex before marriage, but people would go on lots of dates.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
The sexuality shame thing is overblown. The Japanese don't really have shame towards sex, but public flirting and PDA is generally taboo. At that point you're compartmentalizing places where one can find a date and where one can't find a date, which drastically lowers the odds you'll meet someone. On top, shyness and saving face run rampant. The former makes it so men don't approach all that often, the latter makes it so they often miss when a woman does the approach but does it in a way she can still save face, often leading to misreading intents. To put it in perspective, Japanese women tend to approach men more often than in the US, if I have to believe anecdotes. You wouldn't expect that from a culture "shaming" sexuality all-around versus a culture which openly applauds sexuality at every corner.
- Overtonwindow 4y ago
  Thank you, I see. I tried to Google around for this but couldn't find a strong source: How does Japan compare to a country with the highest marriage rate? Wikipedia[1] says in 2014, Palestine had the highest marriage rate per capita, followed by Fiji, Egypt, the Bahamas, etc. I suppose the closest comparison to Japan might be another Asian country? Just curious if it's the taboo on PDA, flirting, and other personal interactions, or is it something more societal. Does Japan need a sexual revolution?
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Japan absolutely doesn't need a sexual revolution. While the Japanese live under a mantra of not trying to disturb one another (which is the opposite of what you want for dating), a sexual revolution has not fixed the problem for other countries by any stretch of the imagination. Most developed countries follow similar trends. The problem is seeing relationships as too much effort for what's gained. That's only going to be fixed by sweetening the deal of entering a relationship and making it easier to enter a relationship. And unlike what's assumed, sexually liberating people does not guarantee things will become easier.
rayiner 4y ago
There was a lot of shame attached to sexuality and casual sex in the US in the 1950s and people dated (courted) more and got married more and had more kids. Those attitudes are still the same in most of Asia and Africa, and people have relationships. The irony of developed countries is that as acceptance of sexuality increases, relationships and indeed even sexual activity is decreasing. What appears to be breaking down in the developed world that pushed young people to form couples. Historically, many people have relied on parents, churches, etc., to introduce them. Today it’s more of a free market.
- danans 4y ago
  > Historically, many people have relied on parents, churches, etc., to introduce them. Today it’s more of a free market. Yeah, and the free market of dating definitely favors some personality types more than others. In general, people who can tell good jokes, listen to a story, ask questions, dance a bit, etc have it easier than those who can't. Whereas in societies with more traditional pairing mechanisms you could lack in some of those prince/princess charming categories as long as you were decent and employed. Having a foot in both cultures, I've seen how people suited personality-wise for the latter type can struggle in the former.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    At least in the US, there is a general decline in participation in social organizations. People don’t go to church picnics anymore, but many don’t really go to anything else either. And in recent years we have discouraged approaching people in the workplace. I think that’s the correct thing to do, because work should be kept separate from personal life. But that also leaves fewer ways for people to meet each other in a social setting, especially folks who don’t go to college or grad school. Over 95% of marriages where I’m from are arranged. It’s not a perfect system, but has a number of advantages. Family in my opinion is a lot more rational about a young person’s strengths and weaknesses on the relationship market than the young people themselves. They have experience in what’s more important in a relationship or less. Some of my cousins have had arranged marriages in the US and Canada and they’ve been great matches.
mc32 4y ago
Japan does not shame sex -they have compensated "dating", soaplands, love hotels, etc..., And maybe that is part of the problem. Maybe it's not. It's possible that if they made sex more taboo then, at least teenagers would seek it out more as a way to break the rules. On the other hand they as a culture tend to follow rules more than in the "west". So maybe it would be a wash. Some cultures practice "Bundling" to get older kids to experiment.
- api 4y ago
  There's been a decline in youth sexuality in the USA at the same time as our sexual liberalization, especially in the last 10-15 years. I wonder if taboos are actually part of the courtship process with humans. Part of the allure might be doing something forbidden. Humans are weird.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Or maybe everyone's grossed out by the kinds of sex normalized today. My wife knows many women who have had terrible experiences on dates with boys, including pre-marital sexual activity, and have sworn off on marriage as well. Many have anecdotes of young men wanting to recreate pornographic scenes of incredible debauchery with them. For example, many have had men want to choke them. Perhaps large portions of people are disgusted by the kinds of sexual acts now considered 'normal' and find it difficult to ascertain what kind of things any potential date is into. Others she knows have been exposed to pornography, don't like what they see, and have determined they are asexual. Of course, this all disappears the moment they meet a man who actually loves them, and it turns out they are not asexual, they're just not into what's commonly portrayed as normal. At the end of the day, only a slim minority of people were interested in 'sexual liberation'. Most people thought sex was good enough before, as evidenced by the copious amount of premarital sex, children, and higher reported sexual happiness. My wife and I got married very young, so when I hear about all these things, we're both relatively shocked.
    - api 4y ago
      Porn is nothing like actual sex. Even fetish stuff depicted in porn is usually nothing like actual fetish stuff in actual sex (among people into that). I do worry about easy access to porn and young people growing up thinking it even slightly represents reality.
mistrial9 4y ago
the two Korean girls living downstairs in California said to me -- Korean girls cannot lose their virginity without social stigma, and are watched by others; Japanese girls (no mention of class status here) can lose their virginity and not necessarily have social stigma ..

bashmelek 4y ago

I’d actually take the opposite approach—-keep sex as something within a committed relationship/marriage, and keep dating as something with purposeful intent for finding such a partner. What may be missing, though, is a sense of connection with one’s neighbors.

FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
There is something to what you're saying. The expectation of sex does "up the ante" for dating, and, paradoxically, may reduce the overall amount of dating that happens. In the old days, there was a stigma on sex before marriage, but people would go on lots of dates.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

The sexuality shame thing is overblown. The Japanese don't really have shame towards sex, but public flirting and PDA is generally taboo. At that point you're compartmentalizing places where one can find a date and where one can't find a date, which drastically lowers the odds you'll meet someone. On top, shyness and saving face run rampant. The former makes it so men don't approach all that often, the latter makes it so they often miss when a woman does the approach but does it in a way she can still save face, often leading to misreading intents. To put it in perspective, Japanese women tend to approach men more often than in the US, if I have to believe anecdotes. You wouldn't expect that from a culture "shaming" sexuality all-around versus a culture which openly applauds sexuality at every corner.

Overtonwindow 4y ago
Thank you, I see. I tried to Google around for this but couldn't find a strong source: How does Japan compare to a country with the highest marriage rate? Wikipedia[1] says in 2014, Palestine had the highest marriage rate per capita, followed by Fiji, Egypt, the Bahamas, etc. I suppose the closest comparison to Japan might be another Asian country? Just curious if it's the taboo on PDA, flirting, and other personal interactions, or is it something more societal. Does Japan need a sexual revolution?
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Japan absolutely doesn't need a sexual revolution. While the Japanese live under a mantra of not trying to disturb one another (which is the opposite of what you want for dating), a sexual revolution has not fixed the problem for other countries by any stretch of the imagination. Most developed countries follow similar trends. The problem is seeing relationships as too much effort for what's gained. That's only going to be fixed by sweetening the deal of entering a relationship and making it easier to enter a relationship. And unlike what's assumed, sexually liberating people does not guarantee things will become easier.

rayiner 4y ago

There was a lot of shame attached to sexuality and casual sex in the US in the 1950s and people dated (courted) more and got married more and had more kids. Those attitudes are still the same in most of Asia and Africa, and people have relationships. The irony of developed countries is that as acceptance of sexuality increases, relationships and indeed even sexual activity is decreasing. What appears to be breaking down in the developed world that pushed young people to form couples. Historically, many people have relied on parents, churches, etc., to introduce them. Today it’s more of a free market.

danans 4y ago
> Historically, many people have relied on parents, churches, etc., to introduce them. Today it’s more of a free market. Yeah, and the free market of dating definitely favors some personality types more than others. In general, people who can tell good jokes, listen to a story, ask questions, dance a bit, etc have it easier than those who can't. Whereas in societies with more traditional pairing mechanisms you could lack in some of those prince/princess charming categories as long as you were decent and employed. Having a foot in both cultures, I've seen how people suited personality-wise for the latter type can struggle in the former.
- rayiner 4y ago
  At least in the US, there is a general decline in participation in social organizations. People don’t go to church picnics anymore, but many don’t really go to anything else either. And in recent years we have discouraged approaching people in the workplace. I think that’s the correct thing to do, because work should be kept separate from personal life. But that also leaves fewer ways for people to meet each other in a social setting, especially folks who don’t go to college or grad school. Over 95% of marriages where I’m from are arranged. It’s not a perfect system, but has a number of advantages. Family in my opinion is a lot more rational about a young person’s strengths and weaknesses on the relationship market than the young people themselves. They have experience in what’s more important in a relationship or less. Some of my cousins have had arranged marriages in the US and Canada and they’ve been great matches.

mc32 4y ago

Japan does not shame sex -they have compensated "dating", soaplands, love hotels, etc..., And maybe that is part of the problem. Maybe it's not. It's possible that if they made sex more taboo then, at least teenagers would seek it out more as a way to break the rules. On the other hand they as a culture tend to follow rules more than in the "west". So maybe it would be a wash. Some cultures practice "Bundling" to get older kids to experiment.

api 4y ago
There's been a decline in youth sexuality in the USA at the same time as our sexual liberalization, especially in the last 10-15 years. I wonder if taboos are actually part of the courtship process with humans. Part of the allure might be doing something forbidden. Humans are weird.
- anon291 4y ago
  Or maybe everyone's grossed out by the kinds of sex normalized today. My wife knows many women who have had terrible experiences on dates with boys, including pre-marital sexual activity, and have sworn off on marriage as well. Many have anecdotes of young men wanting to recreate pornographic scenes of incredible debauchery with them. For example, many have had men want to choke them. Perhaps large portions of people are disgusted by the kinds of sexual acts now considered 'normal' and find it difficult to ascertain what kind of things any potential date is into. Others she knows have been exposed to pornography, don't like what they see, and have determined they are asexual. Of course, this all disappears the moment they meet a man who actually loves them, and it turns out they are not asexual, they're just not into what's commonly portrayed as normal. At the end of the day, only a slim minority of people were interested in 'sexual liberation'. Most people thought sex was good enough before, as evidenced by the copious amount of premarital sex, children, and higher reported sexual happiness. My wife and I got married very young, so when I hear about all these things, we're both relatively shocked.
  - api 4y ago
    Porn is nothing like actual sex. Even fetish stuff depicted in porn is usually nothing like actual fetish stuff in actual sex (among people into that). I do worry about easy access to porn and young people growing up thinking it even slightly represents reality.

mistrial9 4y ago

the two Korean girls living downstairs in California said to me -- Korean girls cannot lose their virginity without social stigma, and are watched by others; Japanese girls (no mention of class status here) can lose their virginity and not necessarily have social stigma ..