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> There is no gaggle of desperate women running after a succesful hot man in a suit who keeps denying their advances. This is simply not happening Go to a plac

> There is no gaggle of desperate women running after a succesful hot man in a suit who keeps denying their advances. This is simply not happening Go to a place where there are a lot of women. The simplest example is dancing class(es). Become the top 5% guy there (not 5% in dancing, top 5% male in general) and see. The same thing by being top 5% in your high school or university.

Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
> Go to a place where there are a lot of women Literally anywhere, they are 50% of the world population > The simplest example is dancing class(es In what sitcom universe is dancing classes the simplest example of a place to find women? Also not a dating place, they are there to learn to dance. > Become the top 5% guy there (not 5% in dancing, top 5% male in general) and see. Do you need a card? Or is this one of those "if you are 6ft tall and rich women swoon over you like a disney movie" spiel? I have danced a lot and trust me, people who go in front of others and can dance, even if they are average, get way more attention than pretty boys who sit standing still in the back acting like they are too cool. Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks. Btw see how I said people all the time and not women, because those skills work beyond dating, even if they certainly work for dating.
- ddorian43 4y ago
  > Literally anywhere, they are 50% of the world population In a bar that plays soccer games, 3% are women. In a dancing class of bachata, ~75% are women. In a kickboxing class that have active fighters, 7% women. At least it is where I live in Europe. > Do you need a card? Or is this one of those "if you are 6ft tall and rich women swoon over you like a disney movie" spiel? Something like this is my opinion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 > Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks. Agree.
  - Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
    > In a bar that plays soccer games, 3% are women. You are there to watch a game not flirt, who cares about percentage of women? Also in most of europe the percentage is much larger (for big games), same as superbowl parties in america have more than 3% women. > In a dancing class of bachata, ~75% are women. Yes every bachata class in the planet has 75% women. Also there to dance, not to flirt. > Something like this is my opinion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 Those are insanely varied, and vague things though. Signifiers of social status can get vain people interested but that does not realte to long term relationships or success in dating. Attracting gold diggers is not a superpower, and honestly a pretty undesireble thing to want anyway. It'd be like writting a guide into how to attract Pick Up artists as a woman, why would anyone want that. If anything the list being so long proves the 5% thing cannot possibly be true, you can do the math, but if people happen in a regular bellcurve, being top x% of something, across multiple variables exponentially decreases the chance of finding anyone. Therefore someone close even to top 5% in even half of those categories would be 0.001% of the human population. In other words, women like a varied number of things, men do too, and in that complicated mix of wants, needs and preferences dating is a varied exercise that leads to finding suitable partners, which happens for most people.
    - ddorian43 4y ago
      I'm sorry but this conversation is in vain. Feel free to say the last word. > Also there to dance, not to flirt. Because you are not hot enough. > Yes every bachata class in the planet has 75% women. Also there to dance, not to flirt. I'm pretty certain of my opinions on only things that I have 5+ years experience in (bachata/salsa, kickboxing, programming, few other personal things). > that does not realte to long term relationships or success in dating I was never speaking of long term relationship success. I was saying what woman "want".
      - Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
        > Because you are not hot enough. Yes women are unable to say no if you are hot enough. Its a defect they have from birth. You said you are pretty certain in things you have 5+ years of exp in, so how come you are sharing your opinion on what women want? Shoouldn't you at least get an internship on that before sharing your "knowledge" ? > I'm pretty certain of my opinions on only things that I have 5+ years experience in Google sampling bias, confirmation bias, empirical data != research and "how to not confuse my personal experience with reality". I knew most people didn't know that correlation != causation but I wasn't expecting people to not know their bachata class might not represent 8 billion peoples experience... > I was saying what woman "want". And you would be wrong about that, because your research is you confirmation bias and not any actual study.
- shmel 4y ago
  > Also not a dating place, they are there to learn to dance. What is a dating place then? Do girls actually go anywhere specifically to date? In my experience any event/meetup/whatever that explicitly mentions dating/singles/mingling becomes a sausage fest right away. You could say exactly the same thing about bars and clubs. They are there to have fun with their friends, not to date.
  - Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
    > What is a dating place then? Well the topic of this post is dating apps where everyone there is explicitly down to date. > In my experience any event/meetup/whatever that explicitly mentions dating/singles/mingling becomes a sausage fest right away. >You could say exactly the same thing about bars and clubs. They are there to have fun with their friends, not to date. I agree, some men act like dating is a hunting ground probably part of the reason why dating apps have so few women. Well my point is that if you ask a woman out at a dance class, she can certainly turn you down because she is not interested in you. But it can also be because thats not what she came for. Like I might love Pizza, but if I go to my accountant and he offers me some, I probably will turn it down. Common interests like dance, can be a starting point for a relationship, and classes with people can be a jumping point to talking and seeing if there is any chemistry. But your intention to going to dance classes shouldn't be dating women, it will never work out that way.
    - shmel 4y ago
      I see your point, I even heard something like this from a female acquaintance: "oh, I dance bachata because I just love the dance, why are they all hitting on me?!" And yet, I can hardly believe that the dance where the main point is "how to make a girl grind on your crotch in a way that is acceptable in public?" can be seen as just a dance and nothing else. Before you ask, yes, I danced bachata for many years. As for online dating per se, if we accept that there are a lot more men on dating apps than women, it means only a minority of single women use them at all. If you rely only on apps you will miss out on a huge part of your dating pool. Who wants that?
      - 4y ago
- vintermann 4y ago
  > Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks And how does that work out for online dating?
  - Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
    Well there are a number of ways to show some of those in your profile. From your job, your photos, the activities you are doing in those photos, the people with you in them, your bio.... you can obviously lie about a number of them, but that probably would lead to a number of unsucessful first dates. On the other hand a weaker profile might lead to less dates, but if you have those skills in real life it might lead to a number of succesful dates.
    - vintermann 4y ago
      When attributes people desire in something are hard to judge, but there are some secondary attributes which are easier to judge, then they often go for the latter. To at least get "something". The less willing they are to do that, the less willing they are to participate in the first place. There are some really nasty "market for lemons" effects in online dating, and it seems clear to me it really makes things harder for young people. I am not young myself, and have no need for online dating, so this is how it looks to me from the outside. Your repeated dismissal of these experiences in this thread comes off to me as a bit callous.
- jseban 4y ago
  > Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks. I don't think this is universally true, I bet it works in a lot of cases, but the opposite is often true as well. Try too hard and you look desperate. And looks will always win past a certain level, if you are johnny depp level attractive, you will always get the girls over some average looking guy who is working his ass off. I bet the same goes for money as well past a certain level.
  - Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
    > I don't think this is universally true You can easily google it. Women rate looks as the 4th most important attribute in dating. as always, its an average, there are some vain people who only care about looks. They are by no means common or enough to make 95% of men undateable. > And looks will always win past a certain level pretty people who are single say the same thing about people with money. People with money say this about younger people. Turns out its never their fault, and its just something unattainble someone else has. I guess blaming women is easier than working on yourself but that doesn't make it true.
    - jseban 4y ago
      > Women rate looks as the 4th most important attribute in dating. You can't ask women this, see instead who the men are that get the most girls, there's your answer. Actions speak louder than words, and women are infamous for their cognitive dissonance in the field of mating. > pretty people who are single say the same thing about people with money. People with money say this about younger people. Turns out its never their fault, and its just something unattainble someone else has. And the young, pretty and rich people don't say anything, because they do in fact get first choice.
    - cromd 4y ago
      I think you and those responding to you are saying many valid things, but there are ambiguities still. Does "dating" mean "late-stage worried-about-dying-alone parents-nagging-me dating"? Or does it mean "screw around and go where the wind takes me?". Is the context online or offline? I think "looks win" accurately describes the way many women select men online for many of their dating years, but it can't continue forever. The "20% of the men get 80% of the women" works in short term dating, but it won't work out for more permanent relationships. From 100 men and 100 women, 20 men would pair with 20 women, and you have 80 men and 80 women left over. So they start to change preferences as they get older. And women know that a man can have a trait that's useless in the bedroom but very useful when raising a child. It's also hard to say what "4th most important" means. Maybe looks are the 4th most important thing, given that the man is, at a minimum, in the top X%. But what's the formula? There are nonlinearities also, i.e. you can't always compensate. Having a million dollars and being 5.5 feet tall is better than having a billion dollars and being 4.5 feet tall, I'd predict. Something can be low-importance, but just about anything can be a dealbreaker. I think you're correct in saying the gender inequity isn't so terrible at the end of the day. I predict if you surveyed both genders about whether they get what they really want out of online dating, they'd largely say no. Yes, the average woman has lots of options on Tinder, but that doesn't mean the average woman enjoys using Tinder much. Men think women have it great online because the women have what men want - lots of choice. But I have many female friends who are depressed about dating despite their long list of suitors. They struggle to build satisfying connections. We could ask who is to blame, but I'll just note at the end of the day, one side might be slightly happier than the other ... but only slightly! So frustrated people should keep that in mind.

Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago

> Go to a place where there are a lot of women Literally anywhere, they are 50% of the world population > The simplest example is dancing class(es In what sitcom universe is dancing classes the simplest example of a place to find women? Also not a dating place, they are there to learn to dance. > Become the top 5% guy there (not 5% in dancing, top 5% male in general) and see. Do you need a card? Or is this one of those "if you are 6ft tall and rich women swoon over you like a disney movie" spiel? I have danced a lot and trust me, people who go in front of others and can dance, even if they are average, get way more attention than pretty boys who sit standing still in the back acting like they are too cool. Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks. Btw see how I said people all the time and not women, because those skills work beyond dating, even if they certainly work for dating.

ddorian43 4y ago
> Literally anywhere, they are 50% of the world population In a bar that plays soccer games, 3% are women. In a dancing class of bachata, ~75% are women. In a kickboxing class that have active fighters, 7% women. At least it is where I live in Europe. > Do you need a card? Or is this one of those "if you are 6ft tall and rich women swoon over you like a disney movie" spiel? Something like this is my opinion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 > Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks. Agree.
- Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
  > In a bar that plays soccer games, 3% are women. You are there to watch a game not flirt, who cares about percentage of women? Also in most of europe the percentage is much larger (for big games), same as superbowl parties in america have more than 3% women. > In a dancing class of bachata, ~75% are women. Yes every bachata class in the planet has 75% women. Also there to dance, not to flirt. > Something like this is my opinion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750692 Those are insanely varied, and vague things though. Signifiers of social status can get vain people interested but that does not realte to long term relationships or success in dating. Attracting gold diggers is not a superpower, and honestly a pretty undesireble thing to want anyway. It'd be like writting a guide into how to attract Pick Up artists as a woman, why would anyone want that. If anything the list being so long proves the 5% thing cannot possibly be true, you can do the math, but if people happen in a regular bellcurve, being top x% of something, across multiple variables exponentially decreases the chance of finding anyone. Therefore someone close even to top 5% in even half of those categories would be 0.001% of the human population. In other words, women like a varied number of things, men do too, and in that complicated mix of wants, needs and preferences dating is a varied exercise that leads to finding suitable partners, which happens for most people.
  - ddorian43 4y ago
    I'm sorry but this conversation is in vain. Feel free to say the last word. > Also there to dance, not to flirt. Because you are not hot enough. > Yes every bachata class in the planet has 75% women. Also there to dance, not to flirt. I'm pretty certain of my opinions on only things that I have 5+ years experience in (bachata/salsa, kickboxing, programming, few other personal things). > that does not realte to long term relationships or success in dating I was never speaking of long term relationship success. I was saying what woman "want".
    - Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
      > Because you are not hot enough. Yes women are unable to say no if you are hot enough. Its a defect they have from birth. You said you are pretty certain in things you have 5+ years of exp in, so how come you are sharing your opinion on what women want? Shoouldn't you at least get an internship on that before sharing your "knowledge" ? > I'm pretty certain of my opinions on only things that I have 5+ years experience in Google sampling bias, confirmation bias, empirical data != research and "how to not confuse my personal experience with reality". I knew most people didn't know that correlation != causation but I wasn't expecting people to not know their bachata class might not represent 8 billion peoples experience... > I was saying what woman "want". And you would be wrong about that, because your research is you confirmation bias and not any actual study.
shmel 4y ago
> Also not a dating place, they are there to learn to dance. What is a dating place then? Do girls actually go anywhere specifically to date? In my experience any event/meetup/whatever that explicitly mentions dating/singles/mingling becomes a sausage fest right away. You could say exactly the same thing about bars and clubs. They are there to have fun with their friends, not to date.
- Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
  > What is a dating place then? Well the topic of this post is dating apps where everyone there is explicitly down to date. > In my experience any event/meetup/whatever that explicitly mentions dating/singles/mingling becomes a sausage fest right away. >You could say exactly the same thing about bars and clubs. They are there to have fun with their friends, not to date. I agree, some men act like dating is a hunting ground probably part of the reason why dating apps have so few women. Well my point is that if you ask a woman out at a dance class, she can certainly turn you down because she is not interested in you. But it can also be because thats not what she came for. Like I might love Pizza, but if I go to my accountant and he offers me some, I probably will turn it down. Common interests like dance, can be a starting point for a relationship, and classes with people can be a jumping point to talking and seeing if there is any chemistry. But your intention to going to dance classes shouldn't be dating women, it will never work out that way.
  - shmel 4y ago
    I see your point, I even heard something like this from a female acquaintance: "oh, I dance bachata because I just love the dance, why are they all hitting on me?!" And yet, I can hardly believe that the dance where the main point is "how to make a girl grind on your crotch in a way that is acceptable in public?" can be seen as just a dance and nothing else. Before you ask, yes, I danced bachata for many years. As for online dating per se, if we accept that there are a lot more men on dating apps than women, it means only a minority of single women use them at all. If you rely only on apps you will miss out on a huge part of your dating pool. Who wants that?
    - 4y ago
vintermann 4y ago
> Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks And how does that work out for online dating?
- Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
  Well there are a number of ways to show some of those in your profile. From your job, your photos, the activities you are doing in those photos, the people with you in them, your bio.... you can obviously lie about a number of them, but that probably would lead to a number of unsucessful first dates. On the other hand a weaker profile might lead to less dates, but if you have those skills in real life it might lead to a number of succesful dates.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    When attributes people desire in something are hard to judge, but there are some secondary attributes which are easier to judge, then they often go for the latter. To at least get "something". The less willing they are to do that, the less willing they are to participate in the first place. There are some really nasty "market for lemons" effects in online dating, and it seems clear to me it really makes things harder for young people. I am not young myself, and have no need for online dating, so this is how it looks to me from the outside. Your repeated dismissal of these experiences in this thread comes off to me as a bit callous.
jseban 4y ago
> Courage, getting out there, skill, practice, being fun to be around, are skills people value much more than looks. I don't think this is universally true, I bet it works in a lot of cases, but the opposite is often true as well. Try too hard and you look desperate. And looks will always win past a certain level, if you are johnny depp level attractive, you will always get the girls over some average looking guy who is working his ass off. I bet the same goes for money as well past a certain level.
- Arkhaine_kupo 4y ago
  > I don't think this is universally true You can easily google it. Women rate looks as the 4th most important attribute in dating. as always, its an average, there are some vain people who only care about looks. They are by no means common or enough to make 95% of men undateable. > And looks will always win past a certain level pretty people who are single say the same thing about people with money. People with money say this about younger people. Turns out its never their fault, and its just something unattainble someone else has. I guess blaming women is easier than working on yourself but that doesn't make it true.
  - jseban 4y ago
    > Women rate looks as the 4th most important attribute in dating. You can't ask women this, see instead who the men are that get the most girls, there's your answer. Actions speak louder than words, and women are infamous for their cognitive dissonance in the field of mating. > pretty people who are single say the same thing about people with money. People with money say this about younger people. Turns out its never their fault, and its just something unattainble someone else has. And the young, pretty and rich people don't say anything, because they do in fact get first choice.
  - cromd 4y ago
    I think you and those responding to you are saying many valid things, but there are ambiguities still. Does "dating" mean "late-stage worried-about-dying-alone parents-nagging-me dating"? Or does it mean "screw around and go where the wind takes me?". Is the context online or offline? I think "looks win" accurately describes the way many women select men online for many of their dating years, but it can't continue forever. The "20% of the men get 80% of the women" works in short term dating, but it won't work out for more permanent relationships. From 100 men and 100 women, 20 men would pair with 20 women, and you have 80 men and 80 women left over. So they start to change preferences as they get older. And women know that a man can have a trait that's useless in the bedroom but very useful when raising a child. It's also hard to say what "4th most important" means. Maybe looks are the 4th most important thing, given that the man is, at a minimum, in the top X%. But what's the formula? There are nonlinearities also, i.e. you can't always compensate. Having a million dollars and being 5.5 feet tall is better than having a billion dollars and being 4.5 feet tall, I'd predict. Something can be low-importance, but just about anything can be a dealbreaker. I think you're correct in saying the gender inequity isn't so terrible at the end of the day. I predict if you surveyed both genders about whether they get what they really want out of online dating, they'd largely say no. Yes, the average woman has lots of options on Tinder, but that doesn't mean the average woman enjoys using Tinder much. Men think women have it great online because the women have what men want - lots of choice. But I have many female friends who are depressed about dating despite their long list of suitors. They struggle to build satisfying connections. We could ask who is to blame, but I'll just note at the end of the day, one side might be slightly happier than the other ... but only slightly! So frustrated people should keep that in mind.