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The answer to this problem lies here: “Entsminger pointed out that roughly 80% of the river’s flow is used for agriculture, and most of that for thirsty crops l
by ar813 4y ago
The answer to this problem lies here: “Entsminger pointed out that roughly 80% of the river’s flow is used for agriculture, and most of that for thirsty crops like alfalfa, which is mainly grown for cattle, both in the U.S. and overseas.”
The simple solution would be to raise prices on water such that it disincentivizes growing water hungry crops than alfalfa for example. The west’s water crisis is less about cities than agricultural choices made during the last century, which was wetter than it will be going forward. The obvious answer is to either regulate or incentivize using less water hungry crops more strongly. It would be better if this had started slowly a while ago, allowing the market to adjust and reallocate. Alas, looks like it will have to be an abrupt shift in the near future.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pm90 4y agoThe reason this doesn’t happen is that farmers/farming lobbies have a lot of political power, especially in rural districts and no politician wants to be painted as anti-farming interests.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kolanos 4y agoUnlike cities, farmers go where the water is. I know some HNers think farmers are growing crops in deserts. But that's just laughable. They farm where there is water: rivers, lakes, flood planes, deltas, etc. It is the cities diverting the water from these places.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago> They farm where there is water: rivers, lakes, flood planes, deltas, etc. It is the cities diverting the water from these places. What do you call a place where the lakes, rivers, flood planes, and deltas are dried up? That's right. A desert. If current trends continue that's exactly what you're going to have.
- wolverine876 4y agoYes, market prices on water and beef (incorporating what are now climate externalities) would seem to solve these problems. Why isn't that being considered? Remember when conservatives, neo-liberals, and libertarians supported the market as a solution for everything? Of course, we would need a reasonable amount of water available to consumers at below-market rates.
- ajmurmann 4y agoTo me charging market price for water seemed obvious and easy till the comments here pointed out what should be obvious: the farmers Steve getting their water from the faucet but from their own wells, creeks etc. So that solution is pretty hard to do on practice. Other than disgruntled voters, I don't see an obstacle for proper beef prices. In fact I wish we could price in carbon emissions, as I wish that pretty much for every price. I personally hope we'll soon see the day where you have to pay extra at McDonald's to get a beef patty instead of cyber meat.
- sacrosancty 4y agoI think as manufacturing and agriculture have become less labor intensive, a bigger proportion of the cost of things has been energy. So in a way, carbon emissions sort of are being priced into things naturally, and I'd guess the trend is increasing. In some extreme technological utopia, energy would be the only cost of food and products, meaning it's all carbon.
- wolverine876 4y ago> I think as manufacturing and agriculture have become less labor intensive, a bigger proportion of the cost of things has been energy. So in a way, carbon emissions sort of are being priced into things naturally But our carbon emissions are not priced into the cost of energy. That's the primary cause of the climate crisis!
- wolverine876 4y ago> To me charging market price for water seemed obvious and easy till the comments here pointed out what should be obvious: the farmers Steve getting their water from the faucet but from their own wells, creeks etc. So that solution is pretty hard to do on practice. It doesn't seem that hard to measure it. The large scale would justify the cost.
- swatcoder 4y ago> The simple solution > The obvious answer This community seems like its at its best when it expresses humble curiosity and its worst when it shuts the door on learning by oversimplifying deeply complex matters as though nobody else had the sense to look straight at them. Water rights carry a legacy of centuries of personal and political history and thousands of competing interests. The levers with which to control price and set incentives the way you suggest don’t exist. There are real problems looming, but there are no “simple solutions” or “obvious answers” being missed. Whatever comes will involve great compromise and very few will think it was the right solution. I guess maybe you’re just joining that chorus early.
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- staticautomatic 4y agoNotwithstanding the farm and ranch lobbies, what part of raising prices isn’t a simple solution?
- dendrite9 4y agoThe question of who owns the water right is important. The doctrine for water usage is different in the western US and the eastern US. Some of this is due to geography, and some due to the history of settlement. Here are a few useful links that discuss the differences. https://nationalaglawcenter.org/overview/water-law/ https://nationalaglawcenter.org/overview/water-law/ https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2014/03/an-introduction-to-water-law/ https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2014/03/an-introduction-to-water-l... https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/whose-water-is-it-anyway.html https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/whose-water-is-it-...
- ABeeSea 4y agoSo change the laws.
- 4y ago
- thehappypm 4y agoHow is something a cow eats possibly a cash crop?
- shagie 4y agoCash crop is defined as something that you sell rather than use yourself. Corn, harvested and sold as corn is a cash crop. Corn, harvested and used to feed your dairy herd is not.
- thepasswordis 4y agoHere's the worst part: we aren't even growing this for ourselves. These are farms owned by the saudis, and we're growing it and exporting it.
- remarkEon 4y agoCitation? I'd love to read more about this. Edit: ah, I see you linked it downthread thanks. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/11/02/453885642/saudi-hay-farm-in-arizona-tests-states-supply-of-groundwater https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/11/02/453885642/sa...
- shagie 4y agoOn a previous thread a month ago... some more links https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31384931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31384931 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w... https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/-files/pdf/shippingwaterputnam.pdf https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/-files/pdf/shippingwaterputnam.p... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140123-colorado-river-water-alfalfa-hay-farming-export-asia https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140123-co... https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.7/how-we-export-our-water-to-asia https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.7/how-we-export-our-water-to-a... https://www.npr.org/2014/08/12/339753108/in-time-of-drought-arizona-s-alpha-exports-criticized https://www.npr.org/2014/08/12/339753108/in-time-of-drought-... (earlier than the one you link to) https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444517304577653432417208116 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444517304577653...
- kolanos 4y ago> Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0] [0]: https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-set-new-records.html https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-s...
- coryrc 4y ago
- kolanos 4y agoAlfalfa is one of the most water efficient and nutritionally rich crops there is. It is also one of the most drought resistant crops. It is hearty and reliable, unlike corn which is far more wasteful when it comes to water. > Deep-Rootedness—alfalfa roots are commonly 3-5 feet deep and can extend to 8-15 feet in some soils. Therefore this crop can utilize moisture residing deep in the profile when surface waters become scarce. It shares this property with crops such as orchards, vineyards, and sugarbeets and safflower, unlike crops such as onion, lettuce and corn, where it's easy to lose water past the root zone. > Alfalfa's deep roots are capable of extracting water from deep in the soil, thus much of the water applied is not wasted. Additionally, deep roots enable the crop to survive periodic droughts. > Perenniality—The fact that the crop grows for 4-8 years, grows quickly with warm conditions in the spring is a major advantage of alfalfa—it can utilize residual winter rainfall before irrigation is necessary. This is unlike summer-grown annual crops that need to be replanted each year (water use efficacy is low during this time). In many areas, the first cutting of alfalfa of the year requires zero irrigation– supported only by rain and residual soil moisture. > Very High Yields—Alfalfa is a very high yielding crop, and can grow 365 days a year in warm regions (such as the Imperial Valley of California and southern Arizona). Its biomass yields are very high—we can get up to 12 cuttings per year in those regions, and growers with top management can obtain more than 14 tons/acre dry matter yields. High-yields create higher water use efficiencies. > High Harvest Index, High Water Use Efficiency—Alfalfa's Water Use Efficiency is not only due to high yields, but because nearly 100% of the above-ground plant material is harvested (known as the harvest index). In most seed-producing and fruiting crops, only a portion of the plant is harvested (typically 30-50% of the total plant biomass). [0]: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1772...