7 ms·

Some days I think humans are pretty gosh darned sophisticated. Then I remember that it’s still controversial as to whether we should slice off healthy parts fro

by jl6 4y ago

Some days I think humans are pretty gosh darned sophisticated. Then I remember that it’s still controversial as to whether we should slice off healthy parts from children who cannot possibly consent.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
And with all the regulation around healthcare in the US, male genital mutilation is not only perfectly legal, but also legal to be done by some with no medical certifications, outside of a medical setting, and it is legal for them to suck the blood from the mutilated area with their mouth, increasing risk of disease for the infant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel Can you imagine a new cult starting today that behaved that way? How fast would everyone jump on them for child abuse?
- natroniks 4y ago
  I'm a circumcised male who has decided to have all 3 male children circumcised. As a Jew, if I may weigh on this, you have my background for an conflicts or biases. Also, maybe content warning is in order for genital mutiliation. 1) It is absolutely not common practice to allow a mohel to orally suck the blood out of an infant's penis. If it's practiced at all, it is only in extremely fringe groups of Jews, not just orthodox or ultra orthodox but a very small group, truly some hundreds of people, practice it. I don't have the data, probably no one does, but saying Jewish circumcisions involve this would be like suggesting all baptisms look like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8 To call metzitzah b'peh common practice, or at all part of ritual circumcision, is an anti-semitic trope. Comparing a key tenet of Judaism to a cult is both simplistic and demeaning. 2) I grappled with the decision to have brises for my sons. I don't think it's possible to know or define how traumatic such a procedure is; is it worse than giving a 6-month old pierced ears? Is it worse than travelling through the birth canal and having your umbilical cord severed? Who knows. As obvious as it may seem, the pain of a bris impossible to gauge. My sons all began crying as soon as their diaper came off, and their crying was no more intense once the cutting occurred. By the way, it's not like they make a dotted line with marker and snip around the foreskin; whatI witnessed involved a metal device (a type of clamp I suppose) that is slid between the shaft and foreskin, and like a modified cigar cutter, the mohel cuts away the foreskin in one motion. There's a lot of discomfort, maybe pain, but as a father of 3, I assure you every doctor's visit and many trips to the park involve similar levels of harm. 3) I realize mohels are not doctors, but there are mohel academies that train and certify these specialists. To say they are not doctors is one thing (and it's true), but to say they are not medically trained is another. They don't go to medical school but they learn about the biology of the procedure, proper methods, proper tools (including sterilization), post-op treatment & care, etc. It's not an easy topic, but I don't think it should be hard to talk about. Complicated or interesting to describe, maybe hard to judge or rationalize, but let's talk about it openly, let's avoid disparagement, and most of all let's bring some nuance to this conversation.
  - cachvico 4y ago
    It's not so fringe, just Google it.
    - natroniks 4y ago
      I have googled it, nothing I've read describes it as common or main stream. Many describe it as being performed only within a very small segment of the ultra orthodox community. I haven't found a place with reliable stats, which is unfortunate, but here is a paragraph with a recent and prety clear comment from a leading Jewish authority https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-metzitzah-bpeh/ https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-me... Most mohels, even among the Orthodox, do use a sterile pipette, avoiding direct oral-genital contact. In 2005, the Rabbinical Council of America, the main union of modern Orthodox rabbis, issued a statement urging the abandonment of direct suction. Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a medical ethicist and dean of Yeshiva University’s (Orthodox) rabbinical school, was quoted in The JewishDaily Forward as saying: “There is no requirement to make metzitzah b’peh. The Talmud says plainly it is not part of the ritual but belongs to the medical, post-surgical component. There is no doubt that insistence on metzitzah b’peh is wrong. I firmly believe that making metzitzah b’pehis a criminal act.” Do you have sources showing this practice is commonly accepted?
      - natroniks 4y ago
        PS this says (estimates) 3600 children a year. That's 3600 too many, but far from "common place" in my understanding of the term. I can't predict how many Jewish males are born each year, but if someone wants to provide that, I'd be curious to know what portion these 3600 represents.
        nyolfen 4y ago
        it says 3,600 a year in new york; this does not sound like an esoteric fringe practice, but at least a sizeable minority
        4y ago
- MisterMower 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? You've unfortunately been doing a lot of that, and we're trying for a different sort of forum. We want curious conversation, not (for example) ideological battle, regardless of what you're battling for or against. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - MisterMower 4y ago
      Can you please explain to me which of my comments were unsubstantive, and why? There are blatantly anti-semetic comments on this post that remain unflagged. Is that what passes for curious conversation?
      - dang 4y ago
        You've been posting a lot of comments with tons of flamebait and little to no information. I don't think that's hard to understand, and if you keep doing it, we will ban you. The answer to your last question is no.
qnxub 4y ago
It's not so simple. Circumcision in neonate males is a medical prophylactic. The evidence for harm is weak as well. https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/12/10/acc-is-infant-circumcision-ethical/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/12/10/acc-is-infant-circumci...
- kghe3X 4y ago
  You could say the same about pinky toe removal and stubbed toes.
- LocalH 4y ago
  >medical prophylactic The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life. This is extremely harmful, as you are removing another individual's agency for your own religious beliefs (or even worse, the mere notion "I was circumcized and I don't want my son to look different", which is pure vanity). Genital mutilation is abhorrent. It should be illegal to perform on any infant or child unless there is a rare medical necessity to do so.
  - natroniks 4y ago
    > The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life. How so? According to Judaism, the whole point of circumcision is to bear the mark of the promise between God and Abraham. But if you ask me, a modern non-orthodox Jew, circumcision is a rite of passage just like Communion, or Bar Mitzvahs, or any other non-natural step in growing up. It's different for everyone and no one has asked me why it is important. But I think that's really what it comes down to, Circumcision in Judaism is a physical and indelible representation of our belonging to a community whose practices have shifted and adapted over the millennia. One of the very few practices that is described in the Torah and is also carried out today is the brit milah. So, it's carrying on tradition. It is a connection (membership?) to a rather diverse group of people. It transcends geography and time, culture and language. It may be arbitrary - maybe Jews could've figured out another way to achieve all this. But I still don't understand the harm caused by circumcision. At least, no more harm than is caused by a huge number of medical procedures all types of kids may undergo as minors.

by jl6 4y ago

lotsofpulp 4y ago

And with all the regulation around healthcare in the US, male genital mutilation is not only perfectly legal, but also legal to be done by some with no medical certifications, outside of a medical setting, and it is legal for them to suck the blood from the mutilated area with their mouth, increasing risk of disease for the infant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel Can you imagine a new cult starting today that behaved that way? How fast would everyone jump on them for child abuse?

natroniks 4y ago
I'm a circumcised male who has decided to have all 3 male children circumcised. As a Jew, if I may weigh on this, you have my background for an conflicts or biases. Also, maybe content warning is in order for genital mutiliation. 1) It is absolutely not common practice to allow a mohel to orally suck the blood out of an infant's penis. If it's practiced at all, it is only in extremely fringe groups of Jews, not just orthodox or ultra orthodox but a very small group, truly some hundreds of people, practice it. I don't have the data, probably no one does, but saying Jewish circumcisions involve this would be like suggesting all baptisms look like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8 To call metzitzah b'peh common practice, or at all part of ritual circumcision, is an anti-semitic trope. Comparing a key tenet of Judaism to a cult is both simplistic and demeaning. 2) I grappled with the decision to have brises for my sons. I don't think it's possible to know or define how traumatic such a procedure is; is it worse than giving a 6-month old pierced ears? Is it worse than travelling through the birth canal and having your umbilical cord severed? Who knows. As obvious as it may seem, the pain of a bris impossible to gauge. My sons all began crying as soon as their diaper came off, and their crying was no more intense once the cutting occurred. By the way, it's not like they make a dotted line with marker and snip around the foreskin; whatI witnessed involved a metal device (a type of clamp I suppose) that is slid between the shaft and foreskin, and like a modified cigar cutter, the mohel cuts away the foreskin in one motion. There's a lot of discomfort, maybe pain, but as a father of 3, I assure you every doctor's visit and many trips to the park involve similar levels of harm. 3) I realize mohels are not doctors, but there are mohel academies that train and certify these specialists. To say they are not doctors is one thing (and it's true), but to say they are not medically trained is another. They don't go to medical school but they learn about the biology of the procedure, proper methods, proper tools (including sterilization), post-op treatment & care, etc. It's not an easy topic, but I don't think it should be hard to talk about. Complicated or interesting to describe, maybe hard to judge or rationalize, but let's talk about it openly, let's avoid disparagement, and most of all let's bring some nuance to this conversation.
- cachvico 4y ago
  It's not so fringe, just Google it.
  - natroniks 4y ago
    I have googled it, nothing I've read describes it as common or main stream. Many describe it as being performed only within a very small segment of the ultra orthodox community. I haven't found a place with reliable stats, which is unfortunate, but here is a paragraph with a recent and prety clear comment from a leading Jewish authority https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-metzitzah-bpeh/ https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-me... Most mohels, even among the Orthodox, do use a sterile pipette, avoiding direct oral-genital contact. In 2005, the Rabbinical Council of America, the main union of modern Orthodox rabbis, issued a statement urging the abandonment of direct suction. Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a medical ethicist and dean of Yeshiva University’s (Orthodox) rabbinical school, was quoted in The JewishDaily Forward as saying: “There is no requirement to make metzitzah b’peh. The Talmud says plainly it is not part of the ritual but belongs to the medical, post-surgical component. There is no doubt that insistence on metzitzah b’peh is wrong. I firmly believe that making metzitzah b’pehis a criminal act.” Do you have sources showing this practice is commonly accepted?
    - natroniks 4y ago
      PS this says (estimates) 3600 children a year. That's 3600 too many, but far from "common place" in my understanding of the term. I can't predict how many Jewish males are born each year, but if someone wants to provide that, I'd be curious to know what portion these 3600 represents.
      - nyolfen 4y ago
        it says 3,600 a year in new york; this does not sound like an esoteric fringe practice, but at least a sizeable minority
        4y ago
MisterMower 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? You've unfortunately been doing a lot of that, and we're trying for a different sort of forum. We want curious conversation, not (for example) ideological battle, regardless of what you're battling for or against. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - MisterMower 4y ago
    Can you please explain to me which of my comments were unsubstantive, and why? There are blatantly anti-semetic comments on this post that remain unflagged. Is that what passes for curious conversation?
    - dang 4y ago
      You've been posting a lot of comments with tons of flamebait and little to no information. I don't think that's hard to understand, and if you keep doing it, we will ban you. The answer to your last question is no.

qnxub 4y ago

It's not so simple. Circumcision in neonate males is a medical prophylactic. The evidence for harm is weak as well. https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/12/10/acc-is-infant-circumcision-ethical/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/12/10/acc-is-infant-circumci...

kghe3X 4y ago
You could say the same about pinky toe removal and stubbed toes.
LocalH 4y ago
>medical prophylactic The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life. This is extremely harmful, as you are removing another individual's agency for your own religious beliefs (or even worse, the mere notion "I was circumcized and I don't want my son to look different", which is pure vanity). Genital mutilation is abhorrent. It should be illegal to perform on any infant or child unless there is a rare medical necessity to do so.
- natroniks 4y ago
  > The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life. How so? According to Judaism, the whole point of circumcision is to bear the mark of the promise between God and Abraham. But if you ask me, a modern non-orthodox Jew, circumcision is a rite of passage just like Communion, or Bar Mitzvahs, or any other non-natural step in growing up. It's different for everyone and no one has asked me why it is important. But I think that's really what it comes down to, Circumcision in Judaism is a physical and indelible representation of our belonging to a community whose practices have shifted and adapted over the millennia. One of the very few practices that is described in the Torah and is also carried out today is the brit milah. So, it's carrying on tradition. It is a connection (membership?) to a rather diverse group of people. It transcends geography and time, culture and language. It may be arbitrary - maybe Jews could've figured out another way to achieve all this. But I still don't understand the harm caused by circumcision. At least, no more harm than is caused by a huge number of medical procedures all types of kids may undergo as minors.