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That's heartbreaking. Half a year ago my mother asked me about crypto and how she could invest since she read about it online somewhere. I strongly opposed and

That's heartbreaking. Half a year ago my mother asked me about crypto and how she could invest since she read about it online somewhere. I strongly opposed and explained to her why it wouldn't be wise. Most people are just too prone to scam ads and such. It's really concerning.

toolz 4y ago
personally I think this is a signal that our financial system is too absurd. I strongly doubt anyone would think "this seems reasonable" if we all didn't hear stories of people winning millions on options trades. I personally know a young engineer that went all-in on tesla plays and a few years ago had taken ~100k to >6MM. The guy had never bought a single stock before he got into tesla. What is the root of all this ridiculous finance? The stock market seems to be the most ridiculous thing that has been around so long that it's considered normal, but is our inflationary, high risk high reward economy really optimal for society? We're in a spot now where the wealth gap is staggering, yet 100% of the american billionaire classes net worth wouldn't even fund the federal government for a year. Something seems very off about all of this and I suspect that's why we see the symptoms of otherwise intelligent people falling for money scams all the time. We've simply put way too much social energy into making finance complex and I worry that we're continuing down a wrong path by demanding more complex safeguards, insistent that we can solve the problems with policy. I readily welcome the fact that all of this is so complex that I don't have a strong grasp on it though and with that my intuition isn't worth much, but the few people I've met that claim to have a firm grasp on our economic drivers haven't been able to make predictions worth anything noteworthy and that's worrying to me. If the most educated people you know in finances and markets are markedly under-performing compared to congress members, this complexity does not seem to be something benefiting the people it should be benefiting.
- kirsebaer 4y ago
  Congress members are probably over-performing because of insider trading.
- danans 4y ago
  > We've simply put way too much social energy into making finance complex What does "social energy" mean here? Human intellectual effort? Finance represents the complexity of the economy and societies - it's basically a model for understanding and rationalizing the economic activity going on. It can definitely become unmoored from fundamentals, but then have a correction, though. > and I worry that we're continuing down a wrong path by demanding more complex safeguards, insistent that we can solve the problems with policy. What's the alternative? What is the non-policy tool? Let it run without safeguards until it destroys more of the financial security of average people? That's what's happening in the crypto world now. Perhaps we don't regulate it and the examples in the article serve as warnings to others? However, if we do that with the broader stock market, I suspect it'll exacerbate the wealth gap issue you lament, unless your idea is to accelerate toward an financial and societal collapse/reset, which comes with arguably worse side effects.
  - toolz 4y ago
    > However, if we do that with the broader stock market, I suspect it'll exacerbate the wealth gap issue you lament the most widely used cryptos either have fixed inflation or noteably no inflation with bitcoin. These are merely a ton of correlations, but it's hard to imagine the wealth gap getting worse under a non-inflationary, trickle down economic model. The trickle down model might work with non-inflationary currency, but it seems obvious to me that it doesn't work in our current system where the bankers get the most value from the dollars its allowed to create and it loses value as it moves towards lower income pockets. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
    - danans 4y ago
      > it's hard to imagine the wealth gap getting worse under a non-inflationary, trickle down economic model Trickle down economics has exacerbated the wealth gap, as demonstrated by large scale international retrospective studies of its effects [1]. Given that, it's hard to imagine how making things more trickle-down would improve the wealth gap. 1. https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/poverty/530731-huge-new-study-shows-trickle-down-economics-makes-inequality/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/poverty/530731-...
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
> Most people are just too prone to scam ads and such. It's really concerning. That really isn’t true. Most people are fairly resistant to scam ads, or ask for and get good advice. But the scam ads are relentless and fast a wide net, they only need to catch a few victims to be profitable. But then I had to talk my parents out of amway when I was a teenager. A lot of people are easily deluded by a bit of hope backed up by personal connections. That was really powerful stuff, I only hope all of that has moved to much easier to resist scam ads.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The personal connections are huge - and if your personal connections don't mention how something is a scam, or even actively encourage you to get involved with a scam, there's little hope of resisting ads, etc. And people have fewer personal connections these days, which makes it even worse.
jmoak3 4y ago
It's really sad and really hard out there. My older brother has lost ten thousand dollars in the past year - I've begged him to stop but he won't listen. It's affecting his relationship with his girlfriend and he can't afford any of this. He has no experience with computers outside of facebook, but all he does is talk about the next deflationary shitcoin that's gonna make him a millionaire, cause "when the supply shrinks it gets more valuable, like a rare collectible". He's already asked for money to fill in some gaps. Americans have a lot of the world's wealth, and at this scale there are more gullible people than any scammer knows what to do with. To most of the World's population that immense wealth is just the right phone call, text message, or email away from becoming yours.
vesinisa 4y ago
I think I managed to talk out my mother-in-law from investing into cryptocurrencies a year ago. Her friends were already in big time and she was having a fear of missing out. I told her that the market has been artificially pumped high and will be coming down soon. She's also very eco-concious so I told her the running the crypto system is really bad for the environment. Her friends are apparently buying their crypto with the help of some "guy" because they don't know how to do it themselves. It sounds a bit scary, but it's their private matter.

toolz 4y ago

personally I think this is a signal that our financial system is too absurd. I strongly doubt anyone would think "this seems reasonable" if we all didn't hear stories of people winning millions on options trades. I personally know a young engineer that went all-in on tesla plays and a few years ago had taken ~100k to >6MM. The guy had never bought a single stock before he got into tesla. What is the root of all this ridiculous finance? The stock market seems to be the most ridiculous thing that has been around so long that it's considered normal, but is our inflationary, high risk high reward economy really optimal for society? We're in a spot now where the wealth gap is staggering, yet 100% of the american billionaire classes net worth wouldn't even fund the federal government for a year. Something seems very off about all of this and I suspect that's why we see the symptoms of otherwise intelligent people falling for money scams all the time. We've simply put way too much social energy into making finance complex and I worry that we're continuing down a wrong path by demanding more complex safeguards, insistent that we can solve the problems with policy. I readily welcome the fact that all of this is so complex that I don't have a strong grasp on it though and with that my intuition isn't worth much, but the few people I've met that claim to have a firm grasp on our economic drivers haven't been able to make predictions worth anything noteworthy and that's worrying to me. If the most educated people you know in finances and markets are markedly under-performing compared to congress members, this complexity does not seem to be something benefiting the people it should be benefiting.

kirsebaer 4y ago
Congress members are probably over-performing because of insider trading.
danans 4y ago
> We've simply put way too much social energy into making finance complex What does "social energy" mean here? Human intellectual effort? Finance represents the complexity of the economy and societies - it's basically a model for understanding and rationalizing the economic activity going on. It can definitely become unmoored from fundamentals, but then have a correction, though. > and I worry that we're continuing down a wrong path by demanding more complex safeguards, insistent that we can solve the problems with policy. What's the alternative? What is the non-policy tool? Let it run without safeguards until it destroys more of the financial security of average people? That's what's happening in the crypto world now. Perhaps we don't regulate it and the examples in the article serve as warnings to others? However, if we do that with the broader stock market, I suspect it'll exacerbate the wealth gap issue you lament, unless your idea is to accelerate toward an financial and societal collapse/reset, which comes with arguably worse side effects.
- toolz 4y ago
  > However, if we do that with the broader stock market, I suspect it'll exacerbate the wealth gap issue you lament the most widely used cryptos either have fixed inflation or noteably no inflation with bitcoin. These are merely a ton of correlations, but it's hard to imagine the wealth gap getting worse under a non-inflationary, trickle down economic model. The trickle down model might work with non-inflationary currency, but it seems obvious to me that it doesn't work in our current system where the bankers get the most value from the dollars its allowed to create and it loses value as it moves towards lower income pockets. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
  - danans 4y ago
    > it's hard to imagine the wealth gap getting worse under a non-inflationary, trickle down economic model Trickle down economics has exacerbated the wealth gap, as demonstrated by large scale international retrospective studies of its effects [1]. Given that, it's hard to imagine how making things more trickle-down would improve the wealth gap. 1. https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/poverty/530731-huge-new-study-shows-trickle-down-economics-makes-inequality/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/poverty/530731-...

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

> Most people are just too prone to scam ads and such. It's really concerning. That really isn’t true. Most people are fairly resistant to scam ads, or ask for and get good advice. But the scam ads are relentless and fast a wide net, they only need to catch a few victims to be profitable. But then I had to talk my parents out of amway when I was a teenager. A lot of people are easily deluded by a bit of hope backed up by personal connections. That was really powerful stuff, I only hope all of that has moved to much easier to resist scam ads.

bombcar 4y ago
The personal connections are huge - and if your personal connections don't mention how something is a scam, or even actively encourage you to get involved with a scam, there's little hope of resisting ads, etc. And people have fewer personal connections these days, which makes it even worse.

jmoak3 4y ago

It's really sad and really hard out there. My older brother has lost ten thousand dollars in the past year - I've begged him to stop but he won't listen. It's affecting his relationship with his girlfriend and he can't afford any of this. He has no experience with computers outside of facebook, but all he does is talk about the next deflationary shitcoin that's gonna make him a millionaire, cause "when the supply shrinks it gets more valuable, like a rare collectible". He's already asked for money to fill in some gaps. Americans have a lot of the world's wealth, and at this scale there are more gullible people than any scammer knows what to do with. To most of the World's population that immense wealth is just the right phone call, text message, or email away from becoming yours.

vesinisa 4y ago

I think I managed to talk out my mother-in-law from investing into cryptocurrencies a year ago. Her friends were already in big time and she was having a fear of missing out. I told her that the market has been artificially pumped high and will be coming down soon. She's also very eco-concious so I told her the running the crypto system is really bad for the environment. Her friends are apparently buying their crypto with the help of some "guy" because they don't know how to do it themselves. It sounds a bit scary, but it's their private matter.