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> stronger far left I’m not sure there’s any significant ‘far left’ in Scotland. What groups are you thinking of? There’s also of course a very large national

> stronger far left I’m not sure there’s any significant ‘far left’ in Scotland. What groups are you thinking of? There’s also of course a very large nationalist component.

smcl 4y ago
Firstly I'd agree that there's not a significant far left political party in Scotland (Scottish Greens, perhaps?) but it is still more left-leaning overall. But re the "nationalist" bit - that word is overloaded. So the word usually means a couple of things: 1. "far-right beliefs that centre on religious and ethnic hatred" 2. or, "a desire to become an independent nation" In this case when people say the SNP is nationalist it's the second - their policy is that Scotland should be an independent country. For what it's worth they seem to have a strong pro-immigration stance[0] and a belief in racial equality[1], which are usually things type #1 nationalists are heavily against - so take from that what you will. [0] - https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-immigration/ https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-... [1] - https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-actions-are-the-snp-taking-on-race-equality/ https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-actions-are-the-snp-tak...
- eyko 4y ago
  Nationalism in the context of SNP (and as a concept in general) simply refers to the desire/belief that the state and nation should be synonymous. The problem is that not everyone's interpretation of national identity is the same, so the in the end all you get is populism used to push a belief. The answer to the question "What is Scotland, anyway?" is not as clear as politicians would like it to be.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Ok but in real-world usage "nationalist = far right = nazis = bad". So I was clarifying that while that is not untrue, nobody is saying the Scottish independence movement or the SNP are that.
    - eyko 4y ago
      It might be regional or very US/UK specific. In many parts of the world nationalism is also associated with left wing separatist movements. For example, in Spain we have ETA[1], and in Turkey the PKK[2]. I've never specifically associated it with neither left nor right because in my country we have both right and left wing nationalist movements. Yes, far right nationalism is often fascism, nazism, jingoism, etc. but this isn't the only type of nationalism, and we don't use nationalism as a synonym for nazism/fascism, except when speaking specifically in the context of right wing nationalist groups. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group) 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party
ggm 4y ago
Significant is your get out clause. The SSP had six or so members and in electoral terms has been significantly more successful than any English or British equivalent except perhaps sinn fein, who were at least notionally socialist and left of labour. How far left do you want to go? Cenfuegos press was Scottish, that's a former angry brigade member.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Isn’t he dead? Hard to argue a dead person is strong!
  - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
    I dunno, in my home state dead men can still win elections! /s https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-hof/dead-republican-brothel-owner-wins-election-in-nevada-idUSKCN1NC1YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-hof/dead-rep...
  - ggm 4y ago
    Jimmy Maxton is dead as well: Red Clydeside long gone. There were scots Trotskyists, the rock climber Dougal Haston's family notably (he's dead too. I don't think he was political btw) The point being made here is Scotland has a socialist history and has had explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament in recent history. Like.. 2003-2007. I'd hesitate to call it dead just yet.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament I think it’s pretty unreasonable to call these people ‘far left’. I don’t think they’re planning to take up arms like the IRA for example.
      - AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
      - 4y ago

> stronger far left I’m not sure there’s any significant ‘far left’ in Scotland. What groups are you thinking of? There’s also of course a very large nationalist component.

smcl 4y ago

Firstly I'd agree that there's not a significant far left political party in Scotland (Scottish Greens, perhaps?) but it is still more left-leaning overall. But re the "nationalist" bit - that word is overloaded. So the word usually means a couple of things: 1. "far-right beliefs that centre on religious and ethnic hatred" 2. or, "a desire to become an independent nation" In this case when people say the SNP is nationalist it's the second - their policy is that Scotland should be an independent country. For what it's worth they seem to have a strong pro-immigration stance[0] and a belief in racial equality[1], which are usually things type #1 nationalists are heavily against - so take from that what you will. [0] - https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-immigration/ https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-... [1] - https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-actions-are-the-snp-taking-on-race-equality/ https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-actions-are-the-snp-tak...

eyko 4y ago
Nationalism in the context of SNP (and as a concept in general) simply refers to the desire/belief that the state and nation should be synonymous. The problem is that not everyone's interpretation of national identity is the same, so the in the end all you get is populism used to push a belief. The answer to the question "What is Scotland, anyway?" is not as clear as politicians would like it to be.
- smcl 4y ago
  Ok but in real-world usage "nationalist = far right = nazis = bad". So I was clarifying that while that is not untrue, nobody is saying the Scottish independence movement or the SNP are that.
  - eyko 4y ago
    It might be regional or very US/UK specific. In many parts of the world nationalism is also associated with left wing separatist movements. For example, in Spain we have ETA[1], and in Turkey the PKK[2]. I've never specifically associated it with neither left nor right because in my country we have both right and left wing nationalist movements. Yes, far right nationalism is often fascism, nazism, jingoism, etc. but this isn't the only type of nationalism, and we don't use nationalism as a synonym for nazism/fascism, except when speaking specifically in the context of right wing nationalist groups. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group) 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party

ggm 4y ago

Significant is your get out clause. The SSP had six or so members and in electoral terms has been significantly more successful than any English or British equivalent except perhaps sinn fein, who were at least notionally socialist and left of labour. How far left do you want to go? Cenfuegos press was Scottish, that's a former angry brigade member.

chrisseaton 4y ago
Isn’t he dead? Hard to argue a dead person is strong!
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  I dunno, in my home state dead men can still win elections! /s https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-hof/dead-republican-brothel-owner-wins-election-in-nevada-idUSKCN1NC1YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-hof/dead-rep...
- ggm 4y ago
  Jimmy Maxton is dead as well: Red Clydeside long gone. There were scots Trotskyists, the rock climber Dougal Haston's family notably (he's dead too. I don't think he was political btw) The point being made here is Scotland has a socialist history and has had explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament in recent history. Like.. 2003-2007. I'd hesitate to call it dead just yet.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament I think it’s pretty unreasonable to call these people ‘far left’. I don’t think they’re planning to take up arms like the IRA for example.
    - AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
    - 4y ago