9 ms·

This sounds like it's a bill meant to allow gas stations to pivot into becoming paid EV charging stations. Which kind of makes sense, since the switch to EVs w

This sounds like it's a bill meant to allow gas stations to pivot into becoming paid EV charging stations. Which kind of makes sense, since the switch to EVs will probably cause acute financial distress, such as destroying the financial situation of any family that owns/runs a gas station. A pitiless free marketer probably wouldn't care about that destruction (and they may even celebrate it), but I'm at least sympathetic to measures that would lessen the blow or make the transition less painful. It might make more sense to just buy those people out, but that would take budget, and a proposal like this doesn't.

foxyv 4y ago
I think most gas stations make most of their money in the convenience store. EVs would keep people hanging out at the store longer. https://thehustle.co/the-economics-of-gas-stations/ https://thehustle.co/the-economics-of-gas-stations/ The problem is that Gas stations are usually franchisees of the gasoline producers so they may not be able to install EV charging if say Chevron or Texaco don't give the green light.
- klardotsh 4y ago
  I've seen exactly one gas station that had EV chargers... and it wasn't in the US. At least in 2020 (last time I was up there), the Petrol-Canada somewhere along BC Hwy 17 between Swartz Bay and Victoria had (paid) DC rapid chargers. It was pretty neat. Never have seen such a thing stateside.
  - foxyv 4y ago
    I saw one in Alexandria Minnesota. I'm not sure if it was a fast charger. They put it next to the dumpster and the fuel caps.
SEJeff 4y ago
The oil and gas industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries already, especially so in the US. https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Still-Not-Getting-Energy-Prices-Right-A-Global-and-Country-Update-of-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-466004 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Sti...
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > The oil and gas industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries already, especially so in the US. This isn't about the "oil and gas industry," as a while it's about filling stations. And I have a feeling that whatever subsidies the "oil and gas industry," gets as a whole, independent filling stations see very little of that money.
- belorn 4y ago
  While it is important to highlight subsidies to oil and gas industry, those numbers in particular is one I usually avoid because it uses things like traffic accidents cause by using cars and traffic congestion, and then uses that to calculate a value that can be compared to GDP. What that mean is that some of those subsidies included in that number also apply to EV cars, which makes it a bit nonsensical. It also means that if we apply it to GDP we get a GDP that is greater than 100%, which is also nonsensical.
ABeeSea 4y ago
They are going to remove already existing EV chargers at things like public rest stops. This is just political vindictiveness against the EV industry and virtue signaling their support for the fossil fuel industry.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > This is just political vindictiveness against the EV industry and virtue signaling their support for the fossil fuel industry. Show me proof of that, then. Otherwise, it's just condemnation based on baseless speculation. There's probably far more reason to say the backlash here against the bill is just "political vindictiveness against the fossil fuel industry and virtue signaling their support for the EV industry," since there are actual comments with enough emotional tone to infer the commenters feelings.
  - mitchdoogle 4y ago
    The proof is the language of the bill
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      >>> This is just political vindictiveness against the EV industry and virtue signaling their support for the fossil fuel industry. >> Show me proof of that, then. Otherwise, it's just condemnation based on baseless speculation. > The proof is the language of the bill No. I read it, and it's not there.
fyrn- 4y ago
Doubt it since no one makes money selling gas at the pumps, that's just the hook to get people in the store
- spockz 4y ago
  But if you are charging at home or in the parking garage or at the restaurant you have no reason to be at the petrol station any more and therefore no opportunity to buy overpriced things!
  - Retric 4y ago
    From what I have seen around half of 7/11’s are selling gas and locations without pumps seem to do just fine. Long term people in EV’s will still want to get a cold drink and a snack on a long trip and someone is going to be selling that.
    - corrral 4y ago
      > around half of 7/11’s are selling gas and locations without pumps seem to do just fine. This has got to be somewhere densely populated. The closest thing to this out in the 'burbs and sticks is a Dollar General, usually. Gas stations have gas—if they don't, they don't get enough traffic to survive. But I've seen a couple cases of what you're talking about, in the core of our own city. Ex-gas-stations with the pumps removed and surviving as purely convenience stores. > Long term people in EV’s will still want to get a cold drink and a snack on a long trip and someone is going to be selling that. There'll be fewer fueling stops overall, is the thing. Especially locally. Longer stops, yes, but way fewer. Why? Well, for local-only driving, between home charging and places like grocery stores often having chargers, I could well go all year without visiting a dedicated gas+charging station. With an ICE car, my wife and I probably fill up at local gas stations 60+ times a year (and that's with only one of us commuting!), just for local driving, not counting long-distance travel. With EV, that drops to maybe once or twice a year, if not zero. Even if we spent 2-3 weeks a year on EV-driving road trips, I bet our total time at fueling stations would be way lower than with an ICE car, despite those charging stops taking way longer than filling a gas tank, so I don't think "come up with more stuff for people to do, and charge for it" will come even close to making up the difference. Then consider what might happen to even that remaining slice of the market if highway rest-stops started including chargers (paid ones), along with the free playgrounds and free bathrooms and walking trails and picnic tables and local info they already have. EV charging infrastructure's much simpler than gas. No deliveries. Low maintenance. Very little space required (no huge underground tanks, for one thing). No spills. The only thing stopping those from going in might be desire not to compete with businesses (even if the result would be better services for people, overall). There's the rural market that'll probably remain ICE for a long time... but really rural folks may already refuel from tanks on their property, buying in bulk (and possibly a mix of taxed and untaxed fuels, depending on what they'll be used for) and the rest (small-town dwellers) may not do enough driving that they really need ICE over EV, as long as the EV can manage a 60-mile round trip to the nearest Wal-Mart.
belltaco 4y ago
>Which kind of makes sense, since the switch to EVs will probably cause acute financial distress, such as destroying the financial situation of any family that owns/runs a gas station There are tons and tons of people who live in apartments with no chargers or electrical sockets near parking spots, and who would like to purchase an EV. Gas stations can install non-free EV charging stations right now, and it will actually increase their non-gas business since EV charging takes longer, so the customer is incentivised to shop the convenience store to stretch their legs. Gas stations can install things like game kiosks etc. to help them pass time while making money. I am sure they can get more creative.For example, a small best selling books/magazines stall that people can read for free while waiting, and then buy if they want to continue reading. Paid massage chairs, VR playing stations, VR viewing chairs etc. etc. We need to provide social welfare and basic income so that we don't have to pump poison into air, cause global warming, and basically pay for dependence, cause instability and war in the Middle East and now in Eastern Europe. https://ourworldindata.org/data-review-air-pollution-deaths https://ourworldindata.org/data-review-air-pollution-deaths
- adolph 4y ago
  > since EV charging takes longer This is an interesting second order factor for public charging. The critical part may not be cost of electricity but the extended parking space required. If a ICE refuel space is used for <10m and a EV recharge space is used for 30m then the station's total capacity was just cut in third.
  - philips 4y ago
    Maybe. Some studies show up to 80% of EV charging in the US is done at home. So demand is way lower.
    - belltaco 4y ago
      That's partly because it's hard for apartment/condo users to charge EVs, so they buy them less compared to home owners or renters, and thus underrepresented in your stats in spite of demand for EVs among them. It's a classic chicken and egg problem.
philips 4y ago
Gas stations going insolvent because of EVs and the effects is something I have been documenting at https://postpump.org https://postpump.org The problem is that I think outside of highway and freeway infrastructure most stations are doomed. You simply don’t want to stay in a 711 parking lot that long.
- belltaco 4y ago
  Won't it be a good thing for 711 and walkable stores in the area? Convenience stores can come up with ideas for people to pass their time beyond shopping and coffee/food. Maybe game kiosks like you see in bars that allow people to stand and stretch their legs instead of sitting in a car? They don't take up that much space. Maybe even a couple of restaurant style tables for people to eat, drink or just hang out.
  - philips 4y ago
    The problem is that as these gas stations go insolvent the land will be a liability instead of an asset because you have to cleanup the tanks and likely will find damage to soil or ground water. See https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/aging-gasoline-storage-tanks-in-wa-a-serious-threat-to-human-health-and-the-environment https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/agi...
  - dariusj18 4y ago
    Except a gas station can currently serve X people per hour with fuel tanks but Y per hour with electric charging. Under the assumption that Y is not only less than X but substantially less than X, they'd need to find a lot of methods to extract money form those customers, which ends up with their own risks and costs.
- mint2 4y ago
  There’s a lot of people who seem to think an ev charging area will look basically like a gas station with the pumps switched. That is not going to happen. A ev charging area will be a coffee shop or lounge, something that will be nice to hang around for 20 minutes. Gambling states should be ecstatic at the prospect. Gas stations as they look today are not going to exist except to service legacy ice vehicles
nsnick 4y ago
The problem with gas stations becoming EV charging stations is that EV charging takes substantially longer than filling a gas tank and no one wants to hang out at a gas station.
- ParksNet 4y ago
  Gas stations are also just too small. Most in my area can accommodate 4-8 cars at a time. EV charging is much more suitable for places like Supermarkets, Malls, Restaurants - places where people spend much longer amounts of time and with larger areas to park.
  - natch 4y ago
    >much longer amounts of time Like 9 minutes versus 5 minutes, for a comparison of our stop at a fast charger on the way to LA from the Bay Area versus gas fillup. Such a long time. But yes it’s good to have places to go for the longer (30 minutes say) charges.
Analemma_ 4y ago
> This sounds like it's a bill meant to allow gas stations to pivot into becoming paid EV charging stations. Which won't work, regardless of which stupid laws are deployed to try and force it to happen. I've had an EV for a just under a year now and have not charged it anywhere other than my home even once. There's no reason to besides long trips (which are nowhere near as common as people think)
wollsmoth 4y ago
lol, why buy them out? They made money for decades. It's alright to hang up a successful business after a good run imo.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > lol, why buy them out? They made money for decades. It's alright to hang up a successful business after a good run imo. Come on, put yourself in their shoes. It's a small business. They made money, but probably not tons. Their personal capital is tied up in an obsolete business, which has had its value drop due to technology changes, so they probably can't sell it for whatever they expected. They'll probably see large personal losses, and it's never easy transitioning to a new line of work. Thought experiment time: say you're a 40 year old software engineer, and some new AI gizmo comes out an obsoletes your career and all your work experience. You're going to have to start at the entry level in some new industry. On top of that, the gizmo can out-compete all those tech stocks you invested in, so your net worth is down 50%. You've got a family and 25 years left in your career. Should I be like "LOL. You made money for decades. It's alright to hang up a successful career after a good run imo"?
  - mitchdoogle 4y ago
    I absolutely think there should be a social safety net, more widely available than what we've got now, but people with failed businesses shouldn't get any special treatment beyond what anyone would get.
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    This has happened to basically every single "mom-and-pop" retailer out there. Gas stations aren't special, they are normal.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > This has happened to basically every single "mom-and-pop" retailer out there. > Gas stations aren't special, they are normal. So? Other people were treated callously, so it's fine to treat these people callously too? Personally, I'd be pretty happy if that kind of treatment stopped being "normal."
phkahler 4y ago
>> This sounds like it's a bill meant to allow gas stations to pivot into becoming paid EV charging stations. Which kind of makes sense... No it doesn't. The reason is that charging takes much longer than pumping gas. For a typical daily commute you can charge at home over night at low power. On longer trips you need to charge long enough at high power that a human is going to need something to do to kill time. My bet is on McDonalds as a big player since they are already present along lots of highways, and they do have food and a place to sit. Other restaurants would be better but McDonalds already exist in the right places. Burger King and Wendys too of course but fewer of them (hint hint - ad chargers to be more popular).
- rtp4me 4y ago
  "Smithfield's Chicken 'N Bar-B-Q" in NC is a huge supporter of Tesla chargers. I believe there are multiple charging stations at most/all of his stores. I expect other food places to start supporting paid charging in the near future. We even have a couple of local breweries that have charging spots!
lostapathy 4y ago
> It might make more sense to just buy those people out, but that would take budget, and a proposal like this doesn't. Gas stations (underground tanks especially) have a finite life span. As tanks age out, most simply won't get replaced, so the amount of gas stations will shrink that way over time. Owners will quit taking care of the buildings when they realize the tanks won't make sense to replace in a few years. It's not like we're going to be closing vibrant, well-kept businesses - there will be a natural attrition as the ownership starts investing in other businesses instead of re-investing in keeping the gas station up to date. It's not like we burned every horse barn to the ground when cars were invented - rather they were re-purposed or not replaced over time.
pengaru 4y ago
Gas stations have already turned into convenience stores that happen to also fill your car with gas. They'll continue to do so as EV charging stations, and with a captive audience for a longer duration will be able to sell even more stuff/services from their store. It's well understood they make far more money from the overpriced junk inside than stuff at the pump as-is.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  The convenience store/gas station business model is unworkable as an EV charging station. A convenience store with two or four pumps can still service many dozens of cars per hour, because a fill-up only takes a few minutes. The same space could only charge a handful of EVs in that time, because it takes 15-30 minutes per car. That's less customers per hour who might also potentially come in and buy something. These places will not be able to afford to exist. EV charging makes more sense as a value-added service for a restaurant, or supermarket, because most customers will be there for 30 minutes anyway.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    I don't disagree re: it making sense as a value-added service at a restaurant. But for many, folks already treat the gas station as their cheap convenient restaurant, grocer, gambling den, etc. I have the impression that being a gas station has already kind of ceased to be the primary source of profit. Why isn't there room for all of the above? With how many folks rent/park in the street, demand for convenient charging when the entire fleet is electric is going to be substantial. Especially if there are a lot of cheaper short-range compacts that need frequent top-ups around town... Such vehicles might also get down into the 5-10 minutes charge times too. At least around here gas stations also tend to have way more parking spaces than pumps. Isn't it rather trivial to electrify all the spots vs. putting gas pumps at all of them? Gasoline presents some unique safety and cost barriers to doing that... EVs still need to be washed as well, which many gas stations already provide and restaurants probably won't.
ajross 4y ago
> gas stations [...] becoming paid EV charging stations [...] kind of makes sense It actually doesn't, except for the tiny handful of gas stations on major rural arteries that can service long distance EV travel. The overwhelming bulk of EV charging outside of distance road trips happens at home (where it is a vastly nicer experience than pulling into any service station ever could be), whereas the overwhelming bulk of gas stations are in the urban cores catering to customers near where they live and work. And even then, a "gas station" is an expensive piece of infrastructure with underground tanks and paid employees and elaborate lighting and maintenance. It competes very poorly with a EV fast charger, which is quite literally just a few parking spaces and an electrical junction box.

foxyv 4y ago

I think most gas stations make most of their money in the convenience store. EVs would keep people hanging out at the store longer. https://thehustle.co/the-economics-of-gas-stations/ https://thehustle.co/the-economics-of-gas-stations/ The problem is that Gas stations are usually franchisees of the gasoline producers so they may not be able to install EV charging if say Chevron or Texaco don't give the green light.

klardotsh 4y ago
I've seen exactly one gas station that had EV chargers... and it wasn't in the US. At least in 2020 (last time I was up there), the Petrol-Canada somewhere along BC Hwy 17 between Swartz Bay and Victoria had (paid) DC rapid chargers. It was pretty neat. Never have seen such a thing stateside.
- foxyv 4y ago
  I saw one in Alexandria Minnesota. I'm not sure if it was a fast charger. They put it next to the dumpster and the fuel caps.

SEJeff 4y ago

The oil and gas industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries already, especially so in the US. https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Still-Not-Getting-Energy-Prices-Right-A-Global-and-Country-Update-of-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-466004 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Sti...

tablespoon 4y ago
> The oil and gas industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries already, especially so in the US. This isn't about the "oil and gas industry," as a while it's about filling stations. And I have a feeling that whatever subsidies the "oil and gas industry," gets as a whole, independent filling stations see very little of that money.
belorn 4y ago
While it is important to highlight subsidies to oil and gas industry, those numbers in particular is one I usually avoid because it uses things like traffic accidents cause by using cars and traffic congestion, and then uses that to calculate a value that can be compared to GDP. What that mean is that some of those subsidies included in that number also apply to EV cars, which makes it a bit nonsensical. It also means that if we apply it to GDP we get a GDP that is greater than 100%, which is also nonsensical.

ABeeSea 4y ago

They are going to remove already existing EV chargers at things like public rest stops. This is just political vindictiveness against the EV industry and virtue signaling their support for the fossil fuel industry.

tablespoon 4y ago
> This is just political vindictiveness against the EV industry and virtue signaling their support for the fossil fuel industry. Show me proof of that, then. Otherwise, it's just condemnation based on baseless speculation. There's probably far more reason to say the backlash here against the bill is just "political vindictiveness against the fossil fuel industry and virtue signaling their support for the EV industry," since there are actual comments with enough emotional tone to infer the commenters feelings.
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  The proof is the language of the bill
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    >>> This is just political vindictiveness against the EV industry and virtue signaling their support for the fossil fuel industry. >> Show me proof of that, then. Otherwise, it's just condemnation based on baseless speculation. > The proof is the language of the bill No. I read it, and it's not there.

fyrn- 4y ago

Doubt it since no one makes money selling gas at the pumps, that's just the hook to get people in the store

spockz 4y ago
But if you are charging at home or in the parking garage or at the restaurant you have no reason to be at the petrol station any more and therefore no opportunity to buy overpriced things!
- Retric 4y ago
  From what I have seen around half of 7/11’s are selling gas and locations without pumps seem to do just fine. Long term people in EV’s will still want to get a cold drink and a snack on a long trip and someone is going to be selling that.
  - corrral 4y ago
    > around half of 7/11’s are selling gas and locations without pumps seem to do just fine. This has got to be somewhere densely populated. The closest thing to this out in the 'burbs and sticks is a Dollar General, usually. Gas stations have gas—if they don't, they don't get enough traffic to survive. But I've seen a couple cases of what you're talking about, in the core of our own city. Ex-gas-stations with the pumps removed and surviving as purely convenience stores. > Long term people in EV’s will still want to get a cold drink and a snack on a long trip and someone is going to be selling that. There'll be fewer fueling stops overall, is the thing. Especially locally. Longer stops, yes, but way fewer. Why? Well, for local-only driving, between home charging and places like grocery stores often having chargers, I could well go all year without visiting a dedicated gas+charging station. With an ICE car, my wife and I probably fill up at local gas stations 60+ times a year (and that's with only one of us commuting!), just for local driving, not counting long-distance travel. With EV, that drops to maybe once or twice a year, if not zero. Even if we spent 2-3 weeks a year on EV-driving road trips, I bet our total time at fueling stations would be way lower than with an ICE car, despite those charging stops taking way longer than filling a gas tank, so I don't think "come up with more stuff for people to do, and charge for it" will come even close to making up the difference. Then consider what might happen to even that remaining slice of the market if highway rest-stops started including chargers (paid ones), along with the free playgrounds and free bathrooms and walking trails and picnic tables and local info they already have. EV charging infrastructure's much simpler than gas. No deliveries. Low maintenance. Very little space required (no huge underground tanks, for one thing). No spills. The only thing stopping those from going in might be desire not to compete with businesses (even if the result would be better services for people, overall). There's the rural market that'll probably remain ICE for a long time... but really rural folks may already refuel from tanks on their property, buying in bulk (and possibly a mix of taxed and untaxed fuels, depending on what they'll be used for) and the rest (small-town dwellers) may not do enough driving that they really need ICE over EV, as long as the EV can manage a 60-mile round trip to the nearest Wal-Mart.

belltaco 4y ago

>Which kind of makes sense, since the switch to EVs will probably cause acute financial distress, such as destroying the financial situation of any family that owns/runs a gas station There are tons and tons of people who live in apartments with no chargers or electrical sockets near parking spots, and who would like to purchase an EV. Gas stations can install non-free EV charging stations right now, and it will actually increase their non-gas business since EV charging takes longer, so the customer is incentivised to shop the convenience store to stretch their legs. Gas stations can install things like game kiosks etc. to help them pass time while making money. I am sure they can get more creative.For example, a small best selling books/magazines stall that people can read for free while waiting, and then buy if they want to continue reading. Paid massage chairs, VR playing stations, VR viewing chairs etc. etc. We need to provide social welfare and basic income so that we don't have to pump poison into air, cause global warming, and basically pay for dependence, cause instability and war in the Middle East and now in Eastern Europe. https://ourworldindata.org/data-review-air-pollution-deaths https://ourworldindata.org/data-review-air-pollution-deaths

adolph 4y ago
> since EV charging takes longer This is an interesting second order factor for public charging. The critical part may not be cost of electricity but the extended parking space required. If a ICE refuel space is used for <10m and a EV recharge space is used for 30m then the station's total capacity was just cut in third.
- philips 4y ago
  Maybe. Some studies show up to 80% of EV charging in the US is done at home. So demand is way lower.
  - belltaco 4y ago
    That's partly because it's hard for apartment/condo users to charge EVs, so they buy them less compared to home owners or renters, and thus underrepresented in your stats in spite of demand for EVs among them. It's a classic chicken and egg problem.

philips 4y ago

Gas stations going insolvent because of EVs and the effects is something I have been documenting at https://postpump.org https://postpump.org The problem is that I think outside of highway and freeway infrastructure most stations are doomed. You simply don’t want to stay in a 711 parking lot that long.

belltaco 4y ago
Won't it be a good thing for 711 and walkable stores in the area? Convenience stores can come up with ideas for people to pass their time beyond shopping and coffee/food. Maybe game kiosks like you see in bars that allow people to stand and stretch their legs instead of sitting in a car? They don't take up that much space. Maybe even a couple of restaurant style tables for people to eat, drink or just hang out.
- philips 4y ago
  The problem is that as these gas stations go insolvent the land will be a liability instead of an asset because you have to cleanup the tanks and likely will find damage to soil or ground water. See https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/aging-gasoline-storage-tanks-in-wa-a-serious-threat-to-human-health-and-the-environment https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/agi...
- dariusj18 4y ago
  Except a gas station can currently serve X people per hour with fuel tanks but Y per hour with electric charging. Under the assumption that Y is not only less than X but substantially less than X, they'd need to find a lot of methods to extract money form those customers, which ends up with their own risks and costs.
mint2 4y ago
There’s a lot of people who seem to think an ev charging area will look basically like a gas station with the pumps switched. That is not going to happen. A ev charging area will be a coffee shop or lounge, something that will be nice to hang around for 20 minutes. Gambling states should be ecstatic at the prospect. Gas stations as they look today are not going to exist except to service legacy ice vehicles

nsnick 4y ago

The problem with gas stations becoming EV charging stations is that EV charging takes substantially longer than filling a gas tank and no one wants to hang out at a gas station.

ParksNet 4y ago
Gas stations are also just too small. Most in my area can accommodate 4-8 cars at a time. EV charging is much more suitable for places like Supermarkets, Malls, Restaurants - places where people spend much longer amounts of time and with larger areas to park.
- natch 4y ago
  >much longer amounts of time Like 9 minutes versus 5 minutes, for a comparison of our stop at a fast charger on the way to LA from the Bay Area versus gas fillup. Such a long time. But yes it’s good to have places to go for the longer (30 minutes say) charges.

Analemma_ 4y ago

> This sounds like it's a bill meant to allow gas stations to pivot into becoming paid EV charging stations. Which won't work, regardless of which stupid laws are deployed to try and force it to happen. I've had an EV for a just under a year now and have not charged it anywhere other than my home even once. There's no reason to besides long trips (which are nowhere near as common as people think)

wollsmoth 4y ago

lol, why buy them out? They made money for decades. It's alright to hang up a successful business after a good run imo.

tablespoon 4y ago
> lol, why buy them out? They made money for decades. It's alright to hang up a successful business after a good run imo. Come on, put yourself in their shoes. It's a small business. They made money, but probably not tons. Their personal capital is tied up in an obsolete business, which has had its value drop due to technology changes, so they probably can't sell it for whatever they expected. They'll probably see large personal losses, and it's never easy transitioning to a new line of work. Thought experiment time: say you're a 40 year old software engineer, and some new AI gizmo comes out an obsoletes your career and all your work experience. You're going to have to start at the entry level in some new industry. On top of that, the gizmo can out-compete all those tech stocks you invested in, so your net worth is down 50%. You've got a family and 25 years left in your career. Should I be like "LOL. You made money for decades. It's alright to hang up a successful career after a good run imo"?
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  I absolutely think there should be a social safety net, more widely available than what we've got now, but people with failed businesses shouldn't get any special treatment beyond what anyone would get.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  This has happened to basically every single "mom-and-pop" retailer out there. Gas stations aren't special, they are normal.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > This has happened to basically every single "mom-and-pop" retailer out there. > Gas stations aren't special, they are normal. So? Other people were treated callously, so it's fine to treat these people callously too? Personally, I'd be pretty happy if that kind of treatment stopped being "normal."

phkahler 4y ago

>> This sounds like it's a bill meant to allow gas stations to pivot into becoming paid EV charging stations. Which kind of makes sense... No it doesn't. The reason is that charging takes much longer than pumping gas. For a typical daily commute you can charge at home over night at low power. On longer trips you need to charge long enough at high power that a human is going to need something to do to kill time. My bet is on McDonalds as a big player since they are already present along lots of highways, and they do have food and a place to sit. Other restaurants would be better but McDonalds already exist in the right places. Burger King and Wendys too of course but fewer of them (hint hint - ad chargers to be more popular).

rtp4me 4y ago
"Smithfield's Chicken 'N Bar-B-Q" in NC is a huge supporter of Tesla chargers. I believe there are multiple charging stations at most/all of his stores. I expect other food places to start supporting paid charging in the near future. We even have a couple of local breweries that have charging spots!

lostapathy 4y ago

> It might make more sense to just buy those people out, but that would take budget, and a proposal like this doesn't. Gas stations (underground tanks especially) have a finite life span. As tanks age out, most simply won't get replaced, so the amount of gas stations will shrink that way over time. Owners will quit taking care of the buildings when they realize the tanks won't make sense to replace in a few years. It's not like we're going to be closing vibrant, well-kept businesses - there will be a natural attrition as the ownership starts investing in other businesses instead of re-investing in keeping the gas station up to date. It's not like we burned every horse barn to the ground when cars were invented - rather they were re-purposed or not replaced over time.

pengaru 4y ago

Gas stations have already turned into convenience stores that happen to also fill your car with gas. They'll continue to do so as EV charging stations, and with a captive audience for a longer duration will be able to sell even more stuff/services from their store. It's well understood they make far more money from the overpriced junk inside than stuff at the pump as-is.

SoftTalker 4y ago
The convenience store/gas station business model is unworkable as an EV charging station. A convenience store with two or four pumps can still service many dozens of cars per hour, because a fill-up only takes a few minutes. The same space could only charge a handful of EVs in that time, because it takes 15-30 minutes per car. That's less customers per hour who might also potentially come in and buy something. These places will not be able to afford to exist. EV charging makes more sense as a value-added service for a restaurant, or supermarket, because most customers will be there for 30 minutes anyway.
- pengaru 4y ago
  I don't disagree re: it making sense as a value-added service at a restaurant. But for many, folks already treat the gas station as their cheap convenient restaurant, grocer, gambling den, etc. I have the impression that being a gas station has already kind of ceased to be the primary source of profit. Why isn't there room for all of the above? With how many folks rent/park in the street, demand for convenient charging when the entire fleet is electric is going to be substantial. Especially if there are a lot of cheaper short-range compacts that need frequent top-ups around town... Such vehicles might also get down into the 5-10 minutes charge times too. At least around here gas stations also tend to have way more parking spaces than pumps. Isn't it rather trivial to electrify all the spots vs. putting gas pumps at all of them? Gasoline presents some unique safety and cost barriers to doing that... EVs still need to be washed as well, which many gas stations already provide and restaurants probably won't.

ajross 4y ago

> gas stations [...] becoming paid EV charging stations [...] kind of makes sense It actually doesn't, except for the tiny handful of gas stations on major rural arteries that can service long distance EV travel. The overwhelming bulk of EV charging outside of distance road trips happens at home (where it is a vastly nicer experience than pulling into any service station ever could be), whereas the overwhelming bulk of gas stations are in the urban cores catering to customers near where they live and work. And even then, a "gas station" is an expensive piece of infrastructure with underground tanks and paid employees and elaborate lighting and maintenance. It competes very poorly with a EV fast charger, which is quite literally just a few parking spaces and an electrical junction box.