9 ms·

Startups making lithium-ion battery recycling more profitable and sustainable

93 points by orangebanana1 4y ago

oittaa 4y ago
Redwood Materials is super interesting since the founder JB Straubel was one of the key people at Tesla. There aren't many people on the planet who know more about battery production than him.
- orangebanana1 4y ago
  Investors think so too. As of last year had raised almost $800 million: https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/28/redwood-materials-raises-700m-to-expand-its-battery-recycling-operation/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/28/redwood-materials-raises-7...
- wumpus 4y ago
  Don't forget all the people claiming that Tesla just buys batteries, they don't know anything about them.
sydthrowaway 4y ago
Any of them hiring in California?
- wumpus 4y ago
  https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/join https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/join
icameron 4y ago
There is a real need for this. Just today I was dropping the kids off at school and was diverted because a garbage truck had caught fire and had to dump its payload in the middle of the playground. A flaming pile of hot garbage. The firefighter said it was probably caused by a battery someone left in the dumpster...
- sumy23 4y ago
  I've always wondered about this. It seems like it would be quite common that someone would throw away a Li-ion battery. In garbage trucks that compact garbage (all of them?), it would be easy to damage the battery and cause a fire. On the other hand, there might not be a lot of oxygen in the compressed garbage to sustain the fire.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    I think standard procedure for garbage trucks is to dump the load over a long area when this happens. There’s probably thermal detectors in the bin that let them know pretty quick that something is up.
  - dangrossman 4y ago
    Lithium battery fires are extra dangerous because they produce their own oxygen, so they do not need an external oxygen source, and can even continue burning when completely submerged in water.
- lnsru 4y ago
  Almost every shop in Germany has a box for collecting old batteries. There is even one in the office. I happily throw my old batteries there. It’s so easy and convenient.
  - spathi_fwiffo 4y ago
    US has this too, most hardware stores, and some offices. Some people are just lazy or don't know.
    - kxyvr 4y ago
      I don't think it's this way everywhere, but I do worry that many of these store disposal options may not work particularly well. A few weeks ago, I had an argument with an employee at Home Depot. I was looking for the battery disposal area and the employee wanted to see what I wanted to deposit. I had a small CR2032 lithium and was told that they don't do the flat ones. That was news to me and my best guess was that the employee was confused about the kind of battery because many of the small batteries are alkaline, which my city has us dispose in the trash. Anyway, eventually management got involved and I was told to just deposit it because they'll throw it away later. After I deposited the battery, the employee opened the box in order to fish it out and the box was full of trash. At best, people were putting large numbers of AAA, AA, C, and D batteries in grocery bags and just throwing them in. Frankly, I think a good amount of it was just plain garbage. The point is that I think that particular Home Depot just takes most of what is in the battery disposal box and just puts it into the trash. I don't think they bother to identify the kinds of batteries in there and the employees I interacted with could not correctly identify battery type. I do believe strongly in battery and electronic disposal. However, I'm not convinced that all disposal places are created equal. In my area, I will no longer use the hardware stores.
lnsru 4y ago
I am just curious how these companies are going to acquire batteries for the recycling. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Tesla sold around two million cars in total. Majority of them in the last couple or so years. That means, these cars will be ready for recycling in 10 or more years (battery 5 years in a car and further as stationary batteries). Electric cars from other manufacturers have sick waiting times. Maybe it’s all a bit too early? Venture capitalists are not going to wait for decades to make profit.
- spathi_fwiffo 4y ago
  There are tons of older hybrids out there that also use very large batteries. Prius has been around for 20+ years, i believe. If the technology works well (i guess the ones not specifically targetted at Tesla batteries) it should work for any lithium battery -- laptop/etc/Solar array batteries.
- vardump 4y ago
  Battery production scrap / rejects is one additional source of material.
- gcheong 4y ago
  “ But this new cohort of recyclers doesn’t have to wait for electric vehicles to hit critical mass. They’ve got plenty to hone their techniques on with existing consumer electronics waste, plus the scrap from new battery manufacturing. ” Sounds like they’re starting now because they need time to get things efficient enough for the day when EV recycling starts to be needed en mass?
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    I’m assuming they’ll be put in fixed applications where weight and max efficiency/charge aren’t critical, unless they’re already damaged. Pumped storage is economically viable at 70-80% efficient at each cycle after a big capital investment. It won’t be EV battery recycling but just battery recycling.
- outworlder 4y ago
sandworm101 4y ago
Why are startups the leaders in lithium recycling? Haven't we learned after decades that producers of trash should be the ones cleaning it up? Europe made manufacturers responsible for all that extra plastic packaging years ago. When Tesla's battery packs wear out they should be dumped at their feet for recycling. Only by folding the problem back on manufacturers will they have any real incentive to build sustainable and repairable products.
- google234123 4y ago
  > Europe made manufacturers responsible for all that extra plastic packaging years ago. I'm guessing they just pass this cost to consumers and the EU already has very high taxes on average.
  - blackoil 4y ago
    Which is how it should be. In the end consumer is making the purchase decision.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Redwood Materials was founded by a Tesla cofounder. They have contracts with both legacy (Ford, notably) and startup automakers, and presumably, will have a contract with Tesla at some point. Panasonic (who manufactures a portion of cells Tesla consumes) has an agreement to source materials for battery production from Redwood. If you’re asking why JB left to found Redwood instead of Tesla building this capability this internally, I’d speculate that it was to demonstrate some form of independence to get legacy automakers onboard versus them potentially being unwilling to work with a competitor and intertwining their supply chains with Tesla. Tesla could always buy Redwood, but based on the investment Redwood has been able to obtain, that’s an unnecessary organizational complexity. Tangentially, Tesla does refurbish and repair entire battery packs for purchase by vehicle owners. It’s still expensive though (I was quoted $19k for a 100kw Model S battery pack if I needed a replacement out of warranty, and that is very close to Tesla’s costs based on some inside math). (nothing above is material non public information)
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
48cfu 4y ago
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93 points by orangebanana1 4y ago

Redwood Materials is super interesting since the founder JB Straubel was one of the key people at Tesla. There aren't many people on the planet who know more about battery production than him.

orangebanana1 4y ago
Investors think so too. As of last year had raised almost $800 million: https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/28/redwood-materials-raises-700m-to-expand-its-battery-recycling-operation/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/28/redwood-materials-raises-7...
wumpus 4y ago
Don't forget all the people claiming that Tesla just buys batteries, they don't know anything about them.

sydthrowaway 4y ago

Any of them hiring in California?

wumpus 4y ago
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/join https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/join

icameron 4y ago

There is a real need for this. Just today I was dropping the kids off at school and was diverted because a garbage truck had caught fire and had to dump its payload in the middle of the playground. A flaming pile of hot garbage. The firefighter said it was probably caused by a battery someone left in the dumpster...

sumy23 4y ago
I've always wondered about this. It seems like it would be quite common that someone would throw away a Li-ion battery. In garbage trucks that compact garbage (all of them?), it would be easy to damage the battery and cause a fire. On the other hand, there might not be a lot of oxygen in the compressed garbage to sustain the fire.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  I think standard procedure for garbage trucks is to dump the load over a long area when this happens. There’s probably thermal detectors in the bin that let them know pretty quick that something is up.
- dangrossman 4y ago
  Lithium battery fires are extra dangerous because they produce their own oxygen, so they do not need an external oxygen source, and can even continue burning when completely submerged in water.
lnsru 4y ago
Almost every shop in Germany has a box for collecting old batteries. There is even one in the office. I happily throw my old batteries there. It’s so easy and convenient.
- spathi_fwiffo 4y ago
  US has this too, most hardware stores, and some offices. Some people are just lazy or don't know.
  - kxyvr 4y ago
    I don't think it's this way everywhere, but I do worry that many of these store disposal options may not work particularly well. A few weeks ago, I had an argument with an employee at Home Depot. I was looking for the battery disposal area and the employee wanted to see what I wanted to deposit. I had a small CR2032 lithium and was told that they don't do the flat ones. That was news to me and my best guess was that the employee was confused about the kind of battery because many of the small batteries are alkaline, which my city has us dispose in the trash. Anyway, eventually management got involved and I was told to just deposit it because they'll throw it away later. After I deposited the battery, the employee opened the box in order to fish it out and the box was full of trash. At best, people were putting large numbers of AAA, AA, C, and D batteries in grocery bags and just throwing them in. Frankly, I think a good amount of it was just plain garbage. The point is that I think that particular Home Depot just takes most of what is in the battery disposal box and just puts it into the trash. I don't think they bother to identify the kinds of batteries in there and the employees I interacted with could not correctly identify battery type. I do believe strongly in battery and electronic disposal. However, I'm not convinced that all disposal places are created equal. In my area, I will no longer use the hardware stores.

lnsru 4y ago

I am just curious how these companies are going to acquire batteries for the recycling. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Tesla sold around two million cars in total. Majority of them in the last couple or so years. That means, these cars will be ready for recycling in 10 or more years (battery 5 years in a car and further as stationary batteries). Electric cars from other manufacturers have sick waiting times. Maybe it’s all a bit too early? Venture capitalists are not going to wait for decades to make profit.

spathi_fwiffo 4y ago
There are tons of older hybrids out there that also use very large batteries. Prius has been around for 20+ years, i believe. If the technology works well (i guess the ones not specifically targetted at Tesla batteries) it should work for any lithium battery -- laptop/etc/Solar array batteries.
vardump 4y ago
Battery production scrap / rejects is one additional source of material.
gcheong 4y ago
“ But this new cohort of recyclers doesn’t have to wait for electric vehicles to hit critical mass. They’ve got plenty to hone their techniques on with existing consumer electronics waste, plus the scrap from new battery manufacturing. ” Sounds like they’re starting now because they need time to get things efficient enough for the day when EV recycling starts to be needed en mass?
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  I’m assuming they’ll be put in fixed applications where weight and max efficiency/charge aren’t critical, unless they’re already damaged. Pumped storage is economically viable at 70-80% efficient at each cycle after a big capital investment. It won’t be EV battery recycling but just battery recycling.
outworlder 4y ago

sandworm101 4y ago

Why are startups the leaders in lithium recycling? Haven't we learned after decades that producers of trash should be the ones cleaning it up? Europe made manufacturers responsible for all that extra plastic packaging years ago. When Tesla's battery packs wear out they should be dumped at their feet for recycling. Only by folding the problem back on manufacturers will they have any real incentive to build sustainable and repairable products.

google234123 4y ago
> Europe made manufacturers responsible for all that extra plastic packaging years ago. I'm guessing they just pass this cost to consumers and the EU already has very high taxes on average.
- blackoil 4y ago
  Which is how it should be. In the end consumer is making the purchase decision.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
Redwood Materials was founded by a Tesla cofounder. They have contracts with both legacy (Ford, notably) and startup automakers, and presumably, will have a contract with Tesla at some point. Panasonic (who manufactures a portion of cells Tesla consumes) has an agreement to source materials for battery production from Redwood. If you’re asking why JB left to found Redwood instead of Tesla building this capability this internally, I’d speculate that it was to demonstrate some form of independence to get legacy automakers onboard versus them potentially being unwilling to work with a competitor and intertwining their supply chains with Tesla. Tesla could always buy Redwood, but based on the investment Redwood has been able to obtain, that’s an unnecessary organizational complexity. Tangentially, Tesla does refurbish and repair entire battery packs for purchase by vehicle owners. It’s still expensive though (I was quoted $19k for a 100kw Model S battery pack if I needed a replacement out of warranty, and that is very close to Tesla’s costs based on some inside math). (nothing above is material non public information)
spaetzleesser 4y ago

48cfu 4y ago

[dead]