4 ms·

So consciousness is an illusion. Great. Then what are you experiencing right now? Who is experiencing it?

whimsicalism 4y ago
If what defines an agent who experiences something is something that takes in inputs, makes a "choice" independent of the base, deterministic interactions of atoms in their brain, and then executes on that choice - then nobody is experiencing it. I agree that this is a difficult question - but it is equally obvious that the way we experience the world is not real. We feel that we have free will but we know we don't.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  So it was preordained since the beginning of time that you would write this comment and that I would reply to you?
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    Quantum effects aside, yes.
    - TuringTest 4y ago
      To the extension that "preordained" has any meaning at all in a chaotic system.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      This seems to be self defeating. Since everyone’s words, including yours, would be those of the primordial demiurge (?) who got the ball rolling. If ‘quantum effects’ are large enough to affect that causal chain then they would be enough to affect the course of human action.
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        Self-defeating? In what way? > If ‘quantum effects’ are large enough to affect that causal chain then they would be enough to affect the course of human action. Yes, but they are just manifestations of a deterministically evolving wavefunction.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        So you assert all words, including yours, ultimately derive from a ‘deterministically evolving wavefunction’?
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        Assert? No, this is what all evidence indicates.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        You certainly seem to be asserting something. Whatever any evidence indicates is only probabilistic and thus needs to be hedged with modifiers to be taken seriously. And regardless, your words, and everyone else's, were still determined at the beginning of time, if your argument is true. That's why this line of reasoning is self-defeating, since if one accepts it they will ignore you since they literally can have no effect on you, nor you on them.
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  How do we know this?
disgruntledphd2 4y ago
This statement is the hard problem in a nutshell.
- TuringTest 4y ago
  The experiences are having themselves.

If what defines an agent who experiences something is something that takes in inputs, makes a "choice" independent of the base, deterministic interactions of atoms in their brain, and then executes on that choice - then nobody is experiencing it. I agree that this is a difficult question - but it is equally obvious that the way we experience the world is not real. We feel that we have free will but we know we don't.

MichaelZuo 4y ago
So it was preordained since the beginning of time that you would write this comment and that I would reply to you?
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  Quantum effects aside, yes.
  - TuringTest 4y ago
    To the extension that "preordained" has any meaning at all in a chaotic system.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    This seems to be self defeating. Since everyone’s words, including yours, would be those of the primordial demiurge (?) who got the ball rolling. If ‘quantum effects’ are large enough to affect that causal chain then they would be enough to affect the course of human action.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      Self-defeating? In what way? > If ‘quantum effects’ are large enough to affect that causal chain then they would be enough to affect the course of human action. Yes, but they are just manifestations of a deterministically evolving wavefunction.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        So you assert all words, including yours, ultimately derive from a ‘deterministically evolving wavefunction’?
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        Assert? No, this is what all evidence indicates.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        You certainly seem to be asserting something. Whatever any evidence indicates is only probabilistic and thus needs to be hedged with modifiers to be taken seriously. And regardless, your words, and everyone else's, were still determined at the beginning of time, if your argument is true. That's why this line of reasoning is self-defeating, since if one accepts it they will ignore you since they literally can have no effect on you, nor you on them.
disgruntledphd2 4y ago
How do we know this?

disgruntledphd2 4y ago

This statement is the hard problem in a nutshell.

TuringTest 4y ago
The experiences are having themselves.