4 ms·

I think we do. If something can make decisions, without external input, act on those decisions without external support, then it could be said to be sentient.

I think we do. If something can make decisions, without external input, act on those decisions without external support, then it could be said to be sentient. Perhaps, I dare say, a key indicator of sentience is the ability to kill another species, even its own, but chooses not to.

colechristensen 4y ago
Autonomy is not sentience.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
You should probably read up on "shut in syndrome" - people with about as close to zero voluntary muscle control as you could get, and yet internally still fully conscious. They are totally unable to act in any way, yet still sentient.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
To try to clarify the conversation a bit, here's (my version of) a couple definitions. Sentience is awareness of one's surroundings. Your cat is sentient. Most embedded systems are to some degree sentient. We know what makes this - adequate interfaces to adequate sensors, plus some mechanism to respond to the input in some way. That's basically all it takes. Sapience is the awareness of one's own mind - the ability to watch yourself think. We're pretty sure that your cat is not sapient, and neither are embedded systems. But we don't know what enables or causes sapience, nor how it does so. So when we're talking about "consciousness" or something, we have to be clear whether we're talking about sentience or sapience. (And the conversation won't be using my words, so don't go by that - you have to sort out which idea is being discussed.) And of course the worst discussions have different people using the same word for different ideas, and nobody recognizes it, so the discussion is really about different definitions of the same word.
- foobarian 4y ago
  Thank you for pointing out the word "sapience," it is a great distinction to the more general concept. Also did you mean to say "sapience" instead of "sentience" in the 3rd paragraph?
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Fixed, thanks. And, credit where due: I stole the term from Howard Tayler's wonderful "Schlock Mercenary" webcomic. It may not be original with him, but that's where I got it.
- epgui 4y ago
  Cats are almost certainly both sentient and sapient by your definition. Even crows appear to be sapient, and their brain architecture is a lot more primitive than cats'.
krisoft 4y ago
> If something can make decisions, without external input, act on those decisions without external support, then it could be said to be sentient. So like, a microcontroller deciding to turn on a LED from time to time when it feels like it is sentient? Sounds like it by that definition. > a key indicator of sentience is the ability to kill another species, even its own, but chooses not to Oh no. This appears to be a different definition now! I'm afraid I don't meet the sentience threshold then. I have many skills but I don't think that I have the ability to kill another species. Not alone at least.
- whynaut 4y ago
  > I have many skills but I don't think that I have the ability to kill another species. Not alone at least. It's very difficult to just walk down the street without killing half a dozen bugs.
  - krisoft 4y ago
    True. But that only kills individual bugs, not a whole species. Is it not?
    - whynaut 4y ago
      We have a word for killing an entire species. I don’t think that’s what is being referred to here.
krageon 4y ago
You just made a case for children not being sentient.

colechristensen 4y ago

Autonomy is not sentience.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

You should probably read up on "shut in syndrome" - people with about as close to zero voluntary muscle control as you could get, and yet internally still fully conscious. They are totally unable to act in any way, yet still sentient.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

To try to clarify the conversation a bit, here's (my version of) a couple definitions. Sentience is awareness of one's surroundings. Your cat is sentient. Most embedded systems are to some degree sentient. We know what makes this - adequate interfaces to adequate sensors, plus some mechanism to respond to the input in some way. That's basically all it takes. Sapience is the awareness of one's own mind - the ability to watch yourself think. We're pretty sure that your cat is not sapient, and neither are embedded systems. But we don't know what enables or causes sapience, nor how it does so. So when we're talking about "consciousness" or something, we have to be clear whether we're talking about sentience or sapience. (And the conversation won't be using my words, so don't go by that - you have to sort out which idea is being discussed.) And of course the worst discussions have different people using the same word for different ideas, and nobody recognizes it, so the discussion is really about different definitions of the same word.

foobarian 4y ago
Thank you for pointing out the word "sapience," it is a great distinction to the more general concept. Also did you mean to say "sapience" instead of "sentience" in the 3rd paragraph?
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Fixed, thanks. And, credit where due: I stole the term from Howard Tayler's wonderful "Schlock Mercenary" webcomic. It may not be original with him, but that's where I got it.
epgui 4y ago
Cats are almost certainly both sentient and sapient by your definition. Even crows appear to be sapient, and their brain architecture is a lot more primitive than cats'.

krisoft 4y ago

> If something can make decisions, without external input, act on those decisions without external support, then it could be said to be sentient. So like, a microcontroller deciding to turn on a LED from time to time when it feels like it is sentient? Sounds like it by that definition. > a key indicator of sentience is the ability to kill another species, even its own, but chooses not to Oh no. This appears to be a different definition now! I'm afraid I don't meet the sentience threshold then. I have many skills but I don't think that I have the ability to kill another species. Not alone at least.

whynaut 4y ago
> I have many skills but I don't think that I have the ability to kill another species. Not alone at least. It's very difficult to just walk down the street without killing half a dozen bugs.
- krisoft 4y ago
  True. But that only kills individual bugs, not a whole species. Is it not?
  - whynaut 4y ago
    We have a word for killing an entire species. I don’t think that’s what is being referred to here.

krageon 4y ago

You just made a case for children not being sentient.