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There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially

by codex 15y ago

There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially if you're ancestors are from herder societies, which evolved temper to protect their vulnerable assets. Certain things are predominately innate.

omarchowdhury 15y ago
How do you know what the limits to Buddhism are? Have you tested the limits? Letting go of conceptions was one of Buddha's teachings. "Certain things are predominately innate" is a conception and holding on to that limits progress [1]. [1] Progress in this case means deliverance (enlightenment).
- codex 15y ago
  There is no certainty, only degrees of belief. I don't "know" that the world is round--I haven't seen it from space and I haven't circumnavigated the globe, and I can't construct a proof. However, I'm "pretty damn sure" the world is round. If the human race restricted its belief to only those things it could be 100% sure of, we would still be in the Bronze Age. Similarly, I can't know that Buddhism can't levitate you off the ground and make you immortal, but I'm "pretty damn sure" it can't, and I wouldn't get any flack for saying so. There are many preconceptions I am comfortable letting go of, but not the ones I mentioned--at least not without extraordinary evidence.
  - disgruntledphd2 15y ago
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395907002436 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395907... That was only a pilot study, but it does appear that meditation is useful for pain. A recent fmri study suggested that one year of meditation caused quite large changes in the experience of pain.
michaelochurch 15y ago
I don't know if this is true, but it's irrelevant. Sexual orientation: Buddhism's stance on sexual morality is pretty simple. No rape and no deception (cheating on a partner, sex with someone underage, and misleading a person to acquire sex all qualify as "deception"). There aren't rules about before vs. after marriage or gender. Buddhism is focused on practicality and harmony, not adherence to assertedly eternal rules. Immunity to pain: not sure of that one. The brain is a powerful thing, and accomplished yogis (not to claim equivalence between yoga and Buddhism) can get power over their bodies in pretty unusual ways. However, Buddhism's main concern is the reduction of dukkha, which translates as "mental suffering". Focusing on the elimination of physical pain is not a primary goal. This wouldn't even be desirable. Temper: I think you put your foot in your mouth here. Spend some time around some seriously accomplished meditators. Yes, there are difficult personalities and some strange (even arrogant) people. However, if you look at aggregate differences, the serious practitioners (and it has more to do with depth of practice than identification with "Buddhism" per se) are remarkably (on average; these are aggregate comparisons) calmer, less neurotic, and less self-absorbed than people without practice.
- muraiki 15y ago
  It's of note that the Dalai Lama said that homosexuality "is generally considered sexual misconduct" for Buddhists. http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm Something that complicates this discussion is that there are many varied forms of Buddhism, sometimes saying seemingly contradictory things. While it's important to be able to use the term "Buddhism" for the sake of conversation, we have to be careful of our scope in making claims. To place this in perhaps more culturally familiar terms for Americans: the Hinayana (even this term is controversial) vs Mahayana branches are as different as Catholics and Protestants, with the Mahayana schools being basically as diverse as Protestantism.
rd108 15y ago
I've worked with researchers studying how mindfulness can ameliorate chronic pain. Here are some references- the mind is a powerful thing. http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/medpain.pdf http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/medpain.pdf http://www.neuro.cjb.net/content/31/14/5540.short http://www.neuro.cjb.net/content/31/14/5540.short
codex 15y ago
Thanks to all for the informative replies. The point I attempted to make is that while you can change the mind, you can't change it completely. Buddhists still feel pain, albeit less pain, and tempers can still flare. I suspect Steve would have been even more intolerable without Zen, and his comments reflect the limits he encountered attempting to change himself.

by codex 15y ago

omarchowdhury 15y ago

How do you know what the limits to Buddhism are? Have you tested the limits? Letting go of conceptions was one of Buddha's teachings. "Certain things are predominately innate" is a conception and holding on to that limits progress [1]. [1] Progress in this case means deliverance (enlightenment).

codex 15y ago
There is no certainty, only degrees of belief. I don't "know" that the world is round--I haven't seen it from space and I haven't circumnavigated the globe, and I can't construct a proof. However, I'm "pretty damn sure" the world is round. If the human race restricted its belief to only those things it could be 100% sure of, we would still be in the Bronze Age. Similarly, I can't know that Buddhism can't levitate you off the ground and make you immortal, but I'm "pretty damn sure" it can't, and I wouldn't get any flack for saying so. There are many preconceptions I am comfortable letting go of, but not the ones I mentioned--at least not without extraordinary evidence.
- disgruntledphd2 15y ago
  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395907002436 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395907... That was only a pilot study, but it does appear that meditation is useful for pain. A recent fmri study suggested that one year of meditation caused quite large changes in the experience of pain.

michaelochurch 15y ago

I don't know if this is true, but it's irrelevant. Sexual orientation: Buddhism's stance on sexual morality is pretty simple. No rape and no deception (cheating on a partner, sex with someone underage, and misleading a person to acquire sex all qualify as "deception"). There aren't rules about before vs. after marriage or gender. Buddhism is focused on practicality and harmony, not adherence to assertedly eternal rules. Immunity to pain: not sure of that one. The brain is a powerful thing, and accomplished yogis (not to claim equivalence between yoga and Buddhism) can get power over their bodies in pretty unusual ways. However, Buddhism's main concern is the reduction of dukkha, which translates as "mental suffering". Focusing on the elimination of physical pain is not a primary goal. This wouldn't even be desirable. Temper: I think you put your foot in your mouth here. Spend some time around some seriously accomplished meditators. Yes, there are difficult personalities and some strange (even arrogant) people. However, if you look at aggregate differences, the serious practitioners (and it has more to do with depth of practice than identification with "Buddhism" per se) are remarkably (on average; these are aggregate comparisons) calmer, less neurotic, and less self-absorbed than people without practice.

muraiki 15y ago
It's of note that the Dalai Lama said that homosexuality "is generally considered sexual misconduct" for Buddhists. http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm Something that complicates this discussion is that there are many varied forms of Buddhism, sometimes saying seemingly contradictory things. While it's important to be able to use the term "Buddhism" for the sake of conversation, we have to be careful of our scope in making claims. To place this in perhaps more culturally familiar terms for Americans: the Hinayana (even this term is controversial) vs Mahayana branches are as different as Catholics and Protestants, with the Mahayana schools being basically as diverse as Protestantism.

rd108 15y ago

I've worked with researchers studying how mindfulness can ameliorate chronic pain. Here are some references- the mind is a powerful thing. http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/medpain.pdf http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/medpain.pdf http://www.neuro.cjb.net/content/31/14/5540.short http://www.neuro.cjb.net/content/31/14/5540.short

codex 15y ago

Thanks to all for the informative replies. The point I attempted to make is that while you can change the mind, you can't change it completely. Buddhists still feel pain, albeit less pain, and tempers can still flare. I suspect Steve would have been even more intolerable without Zen, and his comments reflect the limits he encountered attempting to change himself.