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We don't only have to build fast chargers. We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's n

We don't only have to build fast chargers. We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars. Find sites, get permissions, build. That's a big race no matter the technology used by those power plants. I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up.

scrollaway 4y ago
> I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good. We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation. Fulfill the remainder of the demand with electric.
- fmajid 4y ago
  The population is ageing. The idea that everyone will use bicycles is ableist nonsense.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    Please put your finger on the word "everyone" in my comment.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Electric tricycles are safer for elderly people than even walking. They're far safer than having them drive a car.
  - philistine 4y ago
    What's ableist about saying we need more people using bicycles? Read carefully what was written above. More. bicycles. Nothing in there mentions that everyone needs to use a bicycle. Are you saying we can never argue for more bicycle use because that's somehow ableist?
- Ntrails 4y ago
  > Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation. Cheaper?. 100 miles on the train is more expensive [in the UK] than the fuel for the same trip. And that's before I put 4 people in the sodding car. Not to mention, my standard drive is barely serviced by public transport (requiring three changes and a significant detour). You can even amortise my car costs and I'm still way ahead in time, costs and convenience. NB. I'd really like the railways and buses nationalised and heavily subsidised to support fixed costs based solely on bucketed crow flies distance, log scaled etc. But whilst they are the way they are - no way will I give up a car.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > miles on the train is more expensive [in the UK] This didn't use to be the case. UK trains were privatised and their costs have gone way up in the past few years. Regardless, the UK is irrelevant to this discussion as we're talking about the EU.
hoseja 4y ago
I don't get how everyone is acting like EVs increase energy demands. They are way more efficient than ICEs, it would even be better to switch to EVs and just burn gasoline in big turbine powerplants.
- bionsystem 4y ago
  I can't see if you are being sarcastic or not but this is definitely wrong. Burning gasoline to move a car is much more efficient than burning gasoline to produce electricity transported to a charger to charge a car to move a car.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    Uh...when was the last time you checked on the difference between the efficiency of small and large heat engines? A large Diesel engine is going to be vastly more efficient than a small one, for example: > Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Statistics) > Low-speed diesel engines (as used in ships and other applications where overall engine weight is relatively unimportant) can reach effective efficiencies of up to 55%. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine) Not to mention that a very large percentage of electricity for charging of vehicles is not going to come from fossil fuels in the first place, especially whenever charging can be planned (which is most of the time in Europe).
    - hoseja 4y ago
      I'm thinking more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant
    - bionsystem 4y ago
      Let's assume we go from 30% (low end of small engine efficiency according to first link) to 55% (high end for a Diesel engine according to the second article), so a little short of twice as efficient. What do you think is going to be the overhead of the conversion rate to electricity, electricity transportation ? Because if it is another 50% you lost all interest (but you built a plant and a float of cars and batteries in the meantime). > Not to mention that a very large percentage of electricity for charging of vehicles is not going to come from fossil fuels in the first place, especially whenever charging can be planned (which is most of the time in Europe). That's not what my parent and I are talking about. But I second that. Except I live in France and we are starting to have electricity cuts because we can't maintain our nuclear plants properly. So we are in a little bit more trouble than you might think.
WithinReason 4y ago
> We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars. You're mixing up power and energy there

scrollaway 4y ago

> I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good. We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation. Fulfill the remainder of the demand with electric.

fmajid 4y ago
The population is ageing. The idea that everyone will use bicycles is ableist nonsense.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Please put your finger on the word "everyone" in my comment.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- adrianN 4y ago
  Electric tricycles are safer for elderly people than even walking. They're far safer than having them drive a car.
- philistine 4y ago
  What's ableist about saying we need more people using bicycles? Read carefully what was written above. More. bicycles. Nothing in there mentions that everyone needs to use a bicycle. Are you saying we can never argue for more bicycle use because that's somehow ableist?
Ntrails 4y ago
> Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation. Cheaper?. 100 miles on the train is more expensive [in the UK] than the fuel for the same trip. And that's before I put 4 people in the sodding car. Not to mention, my standard drive is barely serviced by public transport (requiring three changes and a significant detour). You can even amortise my car costs and I'm still way ahead in time, costs and convenience. NB. I'd really like the railways and buses nationalised and heavily subsidised to support fixed costs based solely on bucketed crow flies distance, log scaled etc. But whilst they are the way they are - no way will I give up a car.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  > miles on the train is more expensive [in the UK] This didn't use to be the case. UK trains were privatised and their costs have gone way up in the past few years. Regardless, the UK is irrelevant to this discussion as we're talking about the EU.

hoseja 4y ago

I don't get how everyone is acting like EVs increase energy demands. They are way more efficient than ICEs, it would even be better to switch to EVs and just burn gasoline in big turbine powerplants.

bionsystem 4y ago
I can't see if you are being sarcastic or not but this is definitely wrong. Burning gasoline to move a car is much more efficient than burning gasoline to produce electricity transported to a charger to charge a car to move a car.
- jhgb 4y ago
  Uh...when was the last time you checked on the difference between the efficiency of small and large heat engines? A large Diesel engine is going to be vastly more efficient than a small one, for example: > Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Statistics) > Low-speed diesel engines (as used in ships and other applications where overall engine weight is relatively unimportant) can reach effective efficiencies of up to 55%. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine) Not to mention that a very large percentage of electricity for charging of vehicles is not going to come from fossil fuels in the first place, especially whenever charging can be planned (which is most of the time in Europe).
  - hoseja 4y ago
    I'm thinking more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant
  - bionsystem 4y ago
    Let's assume we go from 30% (low end of small engine efficiency according to first link) to 55% (high end for a Diesel engine according to the second article), so a little short of twice as efficient. What do you think is going to be the overhead of the conversion rate to electricity, electricity transportation ? Because if it is another 50% you lost all interest (but you built a plant and a float of cars and batteries in the meantime). > Not to mention that a very large percentage of electricity for charging of vehicles is not going to come from fossil fuels in the first place, especially whenever charging can be planned (which is most of the time in Europe). That's not what my parent and I are talking about. But I second that. Except I live in France and we are starting to have electricity cuts because we can't maintain our nuclear plants properly. So we are in a little bit more trouble than you might think.

WithinReason 4y ago

> We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars. You're mixing up power and energy there