7 ms·

Way too rushed... I don't think there is a clear roadmap for how the required infrastructure and supply chain will work. Definitely no clear understanding on th

by moravak1984 4y ago

Way too rushed... I don't think there is a clear roadmap for how the required infrastructure and supply chain will work. Definitely no clear understanding on the environmental impact of EVs. Did some pushy Tesla sales reps took senior EU politicians for some cool test rides? Sounds very much like it.

wongarsu 4y ago
We are not in a planned economy, we don't need a 10-year plan for building national supply chains. We have to make sure our electricity infrastructure can cope, everything else can be left up to the market. After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically.
- moravak1984 4y ago
  >> everything else can be left up to the market. Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. >> After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically. Maybe, but there is no such guarantee. You can't solve everything by throwing money at it. Fast chargers/decent batteries remain elusive. So then building infrastructure is the only solution within the next 10-15 years. No way the EU can coordinate that fast.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. This is banning the sale, not the use. And trains exist in Europe.
    - koonsolo 4y ago
      Airplanes are faster than trains.
      - freemint 4y ago
        Not carbon neutral air planes.
      - scrollaway 4y ago
        And a cheetah is faster than a tiger. Sorry, I don't understand your point if you have one.
        koonsolo 4y ago
        Not going to take a train when I can take a plane (which is not crazy expensive anyway). And as you know, planes are pretty polluting. So not sure that ditching driving to your destination is a positive evolution.
        scrollaway 4y ago
        Do you live in Europe? Car trips and plane trips are not interchangeable over here. If people ditch their cars, they won't be taking the plane instead, they would only take planes for long distances. If they have those means, it's most likely they're already taking the plane for it. Furthermore, short haul flights are being banned in Europe.
        koonsolo 4y ago
        I live in Belgium, and at least here that's not true at all. People drive to the south during holidays. South of France, Spain, Italy, ... . And people from the Netherlands do even bigger distances than that, mostly with their camper. And when they don't drive, guess what we/they use: not trains, airplanes. Ryanair is really cheap on some flights. For myself, my wife is from Slovakia, so every year I drive at least once there (1200km). I can do that in 1 day with getting gas in the middle. My wife takes the plane with our youngest one. The reason I drive is because I take a lot of stuff, and want a big car there. If I wouldn't take the car (which sometimes happens), I take the plane, it's really fast. I don't want to imagine how long the train would take me, and how many times I have to switch...
- pmontra 4y ago
  We don't only have to build fast chargers. We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars. Find sites, get permissions, build. That's a big race no matter the technology used by those power plants. I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good. We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation. Fulfill the remainder of the demand with electric.
    - fmajid 4y ago
      The population is ageing. The idea that everyone will use bicycles is ableist nonsense.
      - scrollaway 4y ago
        Please put your finger on the word "everyone" in my comment.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - adrianN 4y ago
        Electric tricycles are safer for elderly people than even walking. They're far safer than having them drive a car.
      - philistine 4y ago
        What's ableist about saying we need more people using bicycles? Read carefully what was written above. More. bicycles. Nothing in there mentions that everyone needs to use a bicycle. Are you saying we can never argue for more bicycle use because that's somehow ableist?
- em1sar 4y ago
  I strongly disagree. This is as close to planned economy as possible. Just that this time the planning organ is a weird hybrid mix of the private and public sector, technically very close to the official definition of of the word "fascism". A marriage of the multinational conglomerates and the globalistic supranational state-esque constructs like the EU.
  - felurx 4y ago
    Genuinely curious: What's the official definition of the word facism, and who gets to set it? I did a surface-level search, and couldn't really find that one definition everybody seems to agree on. One commonality seems to be in having some kind of dictator, and I think that even if your view of the EU was correct, it wouldn't have much to do with a dictatorship.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
Loic 4y ago
It is not too rushed, we are only talking about new cars. It means you can buy an ICE car in 2034 and use it for another 12+ years (so nearly 2050 to drive without too much problems with an ICE car). And we are talking, cars, not small buses, etc. You know that it will not have fundamental effects on the current trends if you look at the stocks of Shell, TotalEnergies, BP. They were basically not affected by the vote.
lenkite 4y ago
Don't worry this is a liveline - not a deadline. It will be postponed to 2045 and then 2055, etc
dzhiurgis 4y ago
Electric buses with a battery size of Tesla already have proved themselves, rest will solve itself.
fold3 4y ago
There definitely won't be a 1:1 replacement of petrol based car to electric. Public transportation will have to develop and drastic change in the way we move will be needed. The ban is coming too late if you consider the Paris agreement for a 1.5°C target of global warming is already on it's way to be missed.
hokkos 4y ago
we now have a deep understanding of the environmental impact of EV and it is better on all criteria than fossil cars, there is tons of documentation available on internet showing it, and I know of reports for the French electricity transmission system operator and for the distribution system operator about infrastructure impact.
LinuxBender 4y ago
I am somewhat curious what studies have been done to see if the electric grid in each region can handle what percentage of drivers using fast chargers and how many drivers will be able to charge at home and how many of them are charging off a large solar array whether it be their own or a farm connected to a local substation. I do not know much about the grid capacity in the various regions of the EU. Here in the US our grid is often pushed to the brink causing mandatory shut-offs in some areas.

wongarsu 4y ago

We are not in a planned economy, we don't need a 10-year plan for building national supply chains. We have to make sure our electricity infrastructure can cope, everything else can be left up to the market. After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically.

moravak1984 4y ago
>> everything else can be left up to the market. Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. >> After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically. Maybe, but there is no such guarantee. You can't solve everything by throwing money at it. Fast chargers/decent batteries remain elusive. So then building infrastructure is the only solution within the next 10-15 years. No way the EU can coordinate that fast.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  > Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. This is banning the sale, not the use. And trains exist in Europe.
  - koonsolo 4y ago
    Airplanes are faster than trains.
    - freemint 4y ago
      Not carbon neutral air planes.
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      And a cheetah is faster than a tiger. Sorry, I don't understand your point if you have one.
      - koonsolo 4y ago
        Not going to take a train when I can take a plane (which is not crazy expensive anyway). And as you know, planes are pretty polluting. So not sure that ditching driving to your destination is a positive evolution.
        scrollaway 4y ago
        Do you live in Europe? Car trips and plane trips are not interchangeable over here. If people ditch their cars, they won't be taking the plane instead, they would only take planes for long distances. If they have those means, it's most likely they're already taking the plane for it. Furthermore, short haul flights are being banned in Europe.
        koonsolo 4y ago
        I live in Belgium, and at least here that's not true at all. People drive to the south during holidays. South of France, Spain, Italy, ... . And people from the Netherlands do even bigger distances than that, mostly with their camper. And when they don't drive, guess what we/they use: not trains, airplanes. Ryanair is really cheap on some flights. For myself, my wife is from Slovakia, so every year I drive at least once there (1200km). I can do that in 1 day with getting gas in the middle. My wife takes the plane with our youngest one. The reason I drive is because I take a lot of stuff, and want a big car there. If I wouldn't take the car (which sometimes happens), I take the plane, it's really fast. I don't want to imagine how long the train would take me, and how many times I have to switch...
pmontra 4y ago
We don't only have to build fast chargers. We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars. Find sites, get permissions, build. That's a big race no matter the technology used by those power plants. I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  > I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good. We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation. Fulfill the remainder of the demand with electric.
  - fmajid 4y ago
    The population is ageing. The idea that everyone will use bicycles is ableist nonsense.
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      Please put your finger on the word "everyone" in my comment.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - adrianN 4y ago
      Electric tricycles are safer for elderly people than even walking. They're far safer than having them drive a car.
    - philistine 4y ago
      What's ableist about saying we need more people using bicycles? Read carefully what was written above. More. bicycles. Nothing in there mentions that everyone needs to use a bicycle. Are you saying we can never argue for more bicycle use because that's somehow ableist?
em1sar 4y ago
I strongly disagree. This is as close to planned economy as possible. Just that this time the planning organ is a weird hybrid mix of the private and public sector, technically very close to the official definition of of the word "fascism". A marriage of the multinational conglomerates and the globalistic supranational state-esque constructs like the EU.
- felurx 4y ago
  Genuinely curious: What's the official definition of the word facism, and who gets to set it? I did a surface-level search, and couldn't really find that one definition everybody seems to agree on. One commonality seems to be in having some kind of dictator, and I think that even if your view of the EU was correct, it wouldn't have much to do with a dictatorship.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

Loic 4y ago

It is not too rushed, we are only talking about new cars. It means you can buy an ICE car in 2034 and use it for another 12+ years (so nearly 2050 to drive without too much problems with an ICE car). And we are talking, cars, not small buses, etc. You know that it will not have fundamental effects on the current trends if you look at the stocks of Shell, TotalEnergies, BP. They were basically not affected by the vote.

lenkite 4y ago

Don't worry this is a liveline - not a deadline. It will be postponed to 2045 and then 2055, etc

dzhiurgis 4y ago

Electric buses with a battery size of Tesla already have proved themselves, rest will solve itself.

fold3 4y ago

There definitely won't be a 1:1 replacement of petrol based car to electric. Public transportation will have to develop and drastic change in the way we move will be needed. The ban is coming too late if you consider the Paris agreement for a 1.5°C target of global warming is already on it's way to be missed.

hokkos 4y ago

we now have a deep understanding of the environmental impact of EV and it is better on all criteria than fossil cars, there is tons of documentation available on internet showing it, and I know of reports for the French electricity transmission system operator and for the distribution system operator about infrastructure impact.

LinuxBender 4y ago

I am somewhat curious what studies have been done to see if the electric grid in each region can handle what percentage of drivers using fast chargers and how many drivers will be able to charge at home and how many of them are charging off a large solar array whether it be their own or a farm connected to a local substation. I do not know much about the grid capacity in the various regions of the EU. Here in the US our grid is often pushed to the brink causing mandatory shut-offs in some areas.