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If you have a combustion engine and want to change to electric, who will buy it from you? Or how do you get rid of your old car? There will be basically no dema

If you have a combustion engine and want to change to electric, who will buy it from you? Or how do you get rid of your old car? There will be basically no demand in Europe. Just wondering what will happen to all these existing cars, it’s nice to know new cars will be electric but what are people supposed to do with their current ones? Lot of them won’t be usable in cities due to low-emission zoning policies. Edit: it’s a genuine question, I don’t understand the logistic behind it, other than driving your old car to Turkey and sell it there, which isn’t realistic for the millions of existing cars. I asked it a few times in the past but didn’t get satisfying answers.

CalRobert 4y ago
Crushed and recycled, presumably. A new ICE car bought today will be usable for over a decade. Of course, the whole point is to make combustion vehicle purchases unappealing, and telling people their resale will be close to nothing helps with this!
Epa095 4y ago
I am willing to bet a beer that it's only for new cars. The article links to a description : >In a plenary vote on Wednesday, MEPs adopted their position on proposed rules to revise the CO2 emissions performance standards for *new* cars and vans with 339 votes in favour, 249 against and 24 abstentions. Many of the eu rules for cars are not retroactive. E.g I can use a old car without lighting for the number plate, even though new cars must have light on them.
- morsch 4y ago
  Yes, this only applies to new cars, not used cars. You will be able to sell and buy used cars after 2035 if this proposal comes into effect. Note that while the parliament of the EU has approved the proposal, it still needs approval from the council of ministers.
  - Helmut10001 4y ago
    Yes, only new cars. I think it this could also mean the reverse for used cars: They get more expensive because everybody wants them and no new are produced.
    - Multicomp 4y ago
      Frankly that's what I'm expecting for aging electric or electronic (not computerized) ICE cars. There will be contexts where BEVs don't work out (farms, off road work, extremely cold climates etc) and humans will maintain an ICE car like a good old 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Jeep CJ5, Unimog and so on for those cases, appreciating in value as the supply of new comparables is gonna be slim to none. We may even end up in a long term repair market like Cuba maintaining those 50s cars since they can't really get more. BEVs will be for civilian city dwellers, but for those who have jobs that were once called essential workers, the ones where people suffer and maybe die if the job doesn't happen, ICE cars will still have a place just for their dependability under duress factor.
  - bestouff 4y ago
    Yes but ICE cars will get more and more expensive to operate as the infrastructure (repair shops and gas stations) disappear, and EU cities will totally ban them (they already start to restrict them). All in all, in the EU you are quite pushed to get rid of your ICE car. I see this as a very good thing.
- dgellow 4y ago
  Sure but that’s just this specific vote, the goal of the EU has been quite clear here, they want to eventually ban consumption engines. If you keep a consumption engine you won’t have as many gas stations anymore and will not be allowed to circulate in some areas (low-emission zones, for example see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air).
notimetorelax 4y ago
I assume people will sell theirs for export to the countries outside of EU. Having bought a new car last year with internal combustion - I'm OK to lose a few thousands by 2035 if this means that there are no more internal combustion cars in use. The primary reason I bought non-electric car is insufficient infrastructure, bills like this will fix the infrastructure problem. Edit: to answer the question in the edit. 13 years is enought of heads up for any new cars. I'd expect a pretty significant drop off in new car sales by 2030 as few people would like to be forced to get rid of their 5 year old car by 2035.
- IanCal 4y ago
  It's only a ban on the sale of new cars.
tarsinge 4y ago
It's only for new cars and in 2035, buyers have 12 years to see it coming and make informed decisions during that period.
- dhzhzjsbevs 4y ago
  Translation: you've got twelve years to save for a Tesla ya dirty peasant.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Because everyone will buy the 2035 equivalent of a new Tesla Model 3 instead of a used Nissan Leaf?
    - toyg 4y ago
      Whatever you buy, you better save up for a new battery. That's an issue with electric cars that has not really been solved, afaik. Most batteries will become useless at a rate that is not comparable to critical ICE engine parts, and they continue to be very expensive.
      - adrianN 4y ago
        Tesla batteries show remarkably little degradation. Batteries are expected to last the whole life of the vehicle.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        That's not really all that different from an ICE car. Every ICE car I've owned becomes overly costly to maintain after 200k miles or so, with a resale/scrap value of a couple grand at most.
Symbiote 4y ago
The article doesn't make it clear, but they are banning the sale of new ICE cars. The secondhand market will continue, although I certainly would expect the value to reduce. Diesel cars have already seen this happen, with current and expected future restrictions on them being used in cities.
Hamcha 4y ago
Why wouldn't the used market eat them up? The existing infrastructure of gas station is realistically not going away until enough people have ditched their old vehicles, and cars are thankfully an industry where consumers still expect their cars to last 10+ years. Don't know what everyone else's experience is, but coming from a middle class family, my first car was a 1993 Ford Fiesta (which was ~20 year old at the time) my dad bought me for dirt cheap. It used a very outdated fuel (petrol instead of diesel), didn't have any of the modern safety standards which are required by new cars and had fuel efficiency so bad it was outright banned within many city centers... but it still served me for years.
- WhoeverSomeone 4y ago
  > consumers still expect their cars to last 10+ years Much longer than that. I'm in my mid 20s in the UK, and I only know one person who drives a car that's less than a decade old, and she leases it. Everyone else has cars 1995-2011. Mine is a 2010 fiesta which I bought last year. The used car market is huge here.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    Not that much longer than that. > The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years, which is on a par with the 2014 performance. The lowest scrappage age, 13 years, was recorded in 2009, a result of government’s scrappage scheme. [1] > Furthermore, the average age of a vehicle on the road has increased, from 6.8 years in 2003 to 7.8 recorded in 2015. This reflects both slower fleet renewal and the increased longevity of vehicles. Looking at the statistics (veh1111.ods in data tables [2]), on 31 December 2021, 63% of cars were less than 10 years old. 86% were less than 15 years old. 96% were less than 20 years old. [1] https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/ https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/averag... [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-licensing-statistics-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-licensing-s...
  - toyg 4y ago
    Tbf, this has something to do with supply of right-hand drive vehicles being smaller than left-hand drive. In a lot of the EU, the used-car sector has lost a lot of ground, particularly since governments figured that a cheap way to stimulate tax revenues is to pass emission rules, effectively forcing sales of new vehicles. We had a similar effect in UK (also powered by the rise of PCP), but the somewhat-constrained supply of new vehicles kept up prices of used ones.
sokoloff 4y ago
If they follow through with this, I’d expect a 2034 ICE car will fetch a premium in 2036 rather than being unsellable. (Note that, contrary to the headline and contents in the Register article, the ban is only on the sale of new cars with ICE, not on the sale of used ICE cars.) There are plenty of cases where EVs are very good answers today. My wife’s ICE car is 17 years old and still going strong. If I fast forward to 2039, she’d equivalently be driving a 2022. In 2045, 10 year old ICE cars will still be readily available and I think quite usable.
- koonsolo 4y ago
  That will also depend on cities still allowing them of course.
  - toyg 4y ago
    Actually I reckon it will depend on the countryside having alternative infrastructure. That's where things like range and charger availability really is critical. Cities already have public transport.
XorNot 4y ago
By 2035 any car manufactured today would be at least 13 years old. My oldest car is 20 years old, and worth basically one tenth - at best - it's purchase price (probably less). So realistically, old car stock will spend another couple of decades being driven till it's dust, and then it'll be gone. But this is a move which does need to happen soon, since you can reasonably expect another 2 decades of the vehicles on the second hand market after implementation.
sandos 4y ago
Why would you absolutely need to sell your car? Just don' buy an EV and run your car until its worth 0. "Lot of them won’t be usable in cities due to low-emission zoning policies.",Yeah lots of talk about that previously but I don't think this will happen for _new_ cars. Also lots of places outside of cities.

CalRobert 4y ago

Crushed and recycled, presumably. A new ICE car bought today will be usable for over a decade. Of course, the whole point is to make combustion vehicle purchases unappealing, and telling people their resale will be close to nothing helps with this!

Epa095 4y ago

I am willing to bet a beer that it's only for new cars. The article links to a description : >In a plenary vote on Wednesday, MEPs adopted their position on proposed rules to revise the CO2 emissions performance standards for *new* cars and vans with 339 votes in favour, 249 against and 24 abstentions. Many of the eu rules for cars are not retroactive. E.g I can use a old car without lighting for the number plate, even though new cars must have light on them.

morsch 4y ago
Yes, this only applies to new cars, not used cars. You will be able to sell and buy used cars after 2035 if this proposal comes into effect. Note that while the parliament of the EU has approved the proposal, it still needs approval from the council of ministers.
- Helmut10001 4y ago
  Yes, only new cars. I think it this could also mean the reverse for used cars: They get more expensive because everybody wants them and no new are produced.
  - Multicomp 4y ago
    Frankly that's what I'm expecting for aging electric or electronic (not computerized) ICE cars. There will be contexts where BEVs don't work out (farms, off road work, extremely cold climates etc) and humans will maintain an ICE car like a good old 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Jeep CJ5, Unimog and so on for those cases, appreciating in value as the supply of new comparables is gonna be slim to none. We may even end up in a long term repair market like Cuba maintaining those 50s cars since they can't really get more. BEVs will be for civilian city dwellers, but for those who have jobs that were once called essential workers, the ones where people suffer and maybe die if the job doesn't happen, ICE cars will still have a place just for their dependability under duress factor.
- bestouff 4y ago
  Yes but ICE cars will get more and more expensive to operate as the infrastructure (repair shops and gas stations) disappear, and EU cities will totally ban them (they already start to restrict them). All in all, in the EU you are quite pushed to get rid of your ICE car. I see this as a very good thing.
dgellow 4y ago
Sure but that’s just this specific vote, the goal of the EU has been quite clear here, they want to eventually ban consumption engines. If you keep a consumption engine you won’t have as many gas stations anymore and will not be allowed to circulate in some areas (low-emission zones, for example see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air).

notimetorelax 4y ago

I assume people will sell theirs for export to the countries outside of EU. Having bought a new car last year with internal combustion - I'm OK to lose a few thousands by 2035 if this means that there are no more internal combustion cars in use. The primary reason I bought non-electric car is insufficient infrastructure, bills like this will fix the infrastructure problem. Edit: to answer the question in the edit. 13 years is enought of heads up for any new cars. I'd expect a pretty significant drop off in new car sales by 2030 as few people would like to be forced to get rid of their 5 year old car by 2035.

IanCal 4y ago
It's only a ban on the sale of new cars.

tarsinge 4y ago

It's only for new cars and in 2035, buyers have 12 years to see it coming and make informed decisions during that period.

dhzhzjsbevs 4y ago
Translation: you've got twelve years to save for a Tesla ya dirty peasant.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Because everyone will buy the 2035 equivalent of a new Tesla Model 3 instead of a used Nissan Leaf?
  - toyg 4y ago
    Whatever you buy, you better save up for a new battery. That's an issue with electric cars that has not really been solved, afaik. Most batteries will become useless at a rate that is not comparable to critical ICE engine parts, and they continue to be very expensive.
    - adrianN 4y ago
      Tesla batteries show remarkably little degradation. Batteries are expected to last the whole life of the vehicle.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      That's not really all that different from an ICE car. Every ICE car I've owned becomes overly costly to maintain after 200k miles or so, with a resale/scrap value of a couple grand at most.

Symbiote 4y ago

The article doesn't make it clear, but they are banning the sale of new ICE cars. The secondhand market will continue, although I certainly would expect the value to reduce. Diesel cars have already seen this happen, with current and expected future restrictions on them being used in cities.

Hamcha 4y ago

Why wouldn't the used market eat them up? The existing infrastructure of gas station is realistically not going away until enough people have ditched their old vehicles, and cars are thankfully an industry where consumers still expect their cars to last 10+ years. Don't know what everyone else's experience is, but coming from a middle class family, my first car was a 1993 Ford Fiesta (which was ~20 year old at the time) my dad bought me for dirt cheap. It used a very outdated fuel (petrol instead of diesel), didn't have any of the modern safety standards which are required by new cars and had fuel efficiency so bad it was outright banned within many city centers... but it still served me for years.

WhoeverSomeone 4y ago
> consumers still expect their cars to last 10+ years Much longer than that. I'm in my mid 20s in the UK, and I only know one person who drives a car that's less than a decade old, and she leases it. Everyone else has cars 1995-2011. Mine is a 2010 fiesta which I bought last year. The used car market is huge here.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Not that much longer than that. > The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years, which is on a par with the 2014 performance. The lowest scrappage age, 13 years, was recorded in 2009, a result of government’s scrappage scheme. [1] > Furthermore, the average age of a vehicle on the road has increased, from 6.8 years in 2003 to 7.8 recorded in 2015. This reflects both slower fleet renewal and the increased longevity of vehicles. Looking at the statistics (veh1111.ods in data tables [2]), on 31 December 2021, 63% of cars were less than 10 years old. 86% were less than 15 years old. 96% were less than 20 years old. [1] https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/ https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/averag... [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-licensing-statistics-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-licensing-s...
- toyg 4y ago
  Tbf, this has something to do with supply of right-hand drive vehicles being smaller than left-hand drive. In a lot of the EU, the used-car sector has lost a lot of ground, particularly since governments figured that a cheap way to stimulate tax revenues is to pass emission rules, effectively forcing sales of new vehicles. We had a similar effect in UK (also powered by the rise of PCP), but the somewhat-constrained supply of new vehicles kept up prices of used ones.

sokoloff 4y ago

If they follow through with this, I’d expect a 2034 ICE car will fetch a premium in 2036 rather than being unsellable. (Note that, contrary to the headline and contents in the Register article, the ban is only on the sale of new cars with ICE, not on the sale of used ICE cars.) There are plenty of cases where EVs are very good answers today. My wife’s ICE car is 17 years old and still going strong. If I fast forward to 2039, she’d equivalently be driving a 2022. In 2045, 10 year old ICE cars will still be readily available and I think quite usable.

koonsolo 4y ago
That will also depend on cities still allowing them of course.
- toyg 4y ago
  Actually I reckon it will depend on the countryside having alternative infrastructure. That's where things like range and charger availability really is critical. Cities already have public transport.

XorNot 4y ago

By 2035 any car manufactured today would be at least 13 years old. My oldest car is 20 years old, and worth basically one tenth - at best - it's purchase price (probably less). So realistically, old car stock will spend another couple of decades being driven till it's dust, and then it'll be gone. But this is a move which does need to happen soon, since you can reasonably expect another 2 decades of the vehicles on the second hand market after implementation.

sandos 4y ago

Why would you absolutely need to sell your car? Just don' buy an EV and run your car until its worth 0. "Lot of them won’t be usable in cities due to low-emission zoning policies.",Yeah lots of talk about that previously but I don't think this will happen for _new_ cars. Also lots of places outside of cities.