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Toyota unveils 8.7 kWh battery for residential applications

300 points by xbmcuser 4y ago

wrycoder 4y ago
How much will it cost?
colechristensen 4y ago
Editorial mistake aside, is that a 1.1 kW output? That's not a lot of power at all and wouldn't power my kettle. Edit: nevermind
- kumarvvr 4y ago
  Article says 5.5 kW peak power.
  - martyvis 4y ago
    So at full rated output power, 5.5kW, it can supply that for 12 minutes (60*1.1/5.5), right? That doesn't seem to be much capacity. Running at say 1kW output you aren't even going to run for an hour. EDIT: The article must be b0rken. The spec sheet from Toyota says the storage unit capacity is 8.7kWh - where did the 1.1kWh get derived from?
    - scq 4y ago
      It's an 8.7 kWh battery, so it can supply it for 1h35m (8.7/5.5). The 1.1 kW number is the power of the EV charging adapter for the system.
      - gcbirzan 4y ago
        The issue is that they say 1.1kWh, instead of 1.1kW, misleading you to believe that it can only output that much energy (total), rather than power (per hour).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
teaearlgraycold 4y ago
Not sure how much I should be reading from a website that can’t get units right.
kumarvvr 4y ago
Looks like they are developing new markets to get to the cost advantages of scale.
thegeekpirate 4y ago
Looks like this is the official announcement: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/36615119.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/36615119.html
- neonroku 4y ago
  here’s the Japanese version: https://www.toyota.co.jp/homebattery/ https://www.toyota.co.jp/homebattery/
  - mceachen 4y ago
    Google translation of that page to English: https://www-toyota-co-jp.translate.goog/homebattery/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-toyota-co-jp.translate.goog/homebattery/?_x_tr_s...
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  They're not saying what the "vehicle adapter" spec is. I'm very curious. I know that CHAdeMO is spec'd to allow vehicle-to-house, but good luck finding an inverter device that has a connector for. My 2018 Mitusbishi Outlander PHEV has a CHAdeMO outlet, it would be handy to take backup power from it as a generator. (I use the 12Amp outlet package on it for that, but that's only good for 1 appliance really). If other people are right about it being NiMH this could actually be a really interesting product.
  - solidr53 4y ago
    The CCS connector equivalent is relying on the onboard DC-AC converter for V2L-V2G, hence no inverter needed. The CCS cable uses a resistor between PE and PP pin to allow the EVSE to determine its current capacity, 1–2.7kΩ for single-phase 13A all the way down to 50–150Ω for three-phase 63A. [1] What manufacturers have done is tap into that and use some resistance to tell the car to go to V2L mode. - Hyundai IONIQ5 and Kia EV6 use 50-75Ω for its V2L adapter, offering 3.6kW load - MG ZS uses 470Ω offering 2.2kW load - Ford F-150 to offer 9.6kW load, but resistor is unknown - BYD vehicles to offer 2.2kW load but resistor is unknown [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Proximity_Pilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Proximity_Pilot
1270018080 4y ago
The Tesla powerwall is 13.7 kWh. I would bet this will be priced better per kWh because there's less of a status symbol to it, but 8.7 is a lot smaller.
- epistasis 4y ago
  A bit smaller is probably good for right-sizing the install. The option to put 2-4 on a larger house is great.
- toast0 4y ago
  Hard to know from this PR, but I'd assume you can get two or more of these if you need more storage or more output. IIRC, Tesla does 1-3 powerwall units in their standard sales process? Storage capacity needs will vary based on the use, but over an hour of use seems like it would take care of a lot of people's needs in my seat of the pants estimate. And for many of those that don't have their needs met with 8.7kWh, 13.7kWh isn't going to do it either.
  - vwoolf 4y ago
    I was just talking to a relation about this, and he said Tesla's guy said he needs two Powerwalls to replace a generator in the event of power interruption. Is that true, or a sales guy thing? I'm not sure and haven't investigated.
    - toast0 4y ago
      It depends on your relation's power usage, I'd imagine. I believe the spec is 5.5kW max output, which is probably insufficient if you've got any sort of large load. My well pump is rated for 30A @ 220V, so startup would likely overwhelm a single powerwall, and I think my air conditioners have similar startup needs (and I've got multiple units); we managed to trip the overcurrent protection on our 35 kW whole house generator during one of our early outages (it's unfortunately not connected to the well pump, overcurrent was just from using multiple heat pumps and washing/drying clothes; dryer heat is from propane. We had a nearly 3 day outage our first winter. However, at my previous house, I didn't have any substantial electric loads, other than an electric water heater in an underused ADU, so 5.5kW would have been likely been fine, and our typical energy use was around 1kW, so we would have had several hours for service to be restored, which fit within the experienced outages.
megraf 4y ago
>operating temperatures ranging from -20 C to 45 C. I'm curious to see how thermal management is done. 45 C is not _that_ hot for a black box in the [insert warm place] heat during summer. I'm also curious if they were able to use the casement as a heatsink in itself
- duxup 4y ago
  Also -20 isn’t unheard of in some places, upper Midwest USA and north….i wonder if it could warm itself if needed?
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    Lots of people with electric cars have no idea their batteries have heating and cooling packages. I would assume this does as well.
    - jazzyjackson 4y ago
      it's always puzzled me when my prius prime asks for permission to use AC while charging, like what are you asking me for bro do what you gotta do
      - OJFord 4y ago
        I suppose if you don't want it to for whatever reason it'll shut off if it gets too hot (perhaps short of where it would otherwise start cooling) instead?
        qwertox 4y ago
        Or charge slower.
      - danuker 4y ago
        It is warming up the exterior of the car (pumping heat out of the battery). If you have a garage integrated into the home, I guess it might be undesirable.
slimsag 4y ago
Orthogonal: Anker has been working on a 1.2 kWh portable battery that you can charge directly from regular outlets, or solar panels, as an alternative to generators. It's a pretty cool little device[1], I've been thinking about getting one. I hope they go bigger. [1] https://www.anker.com/powerhouse_757 https://www.anker.com/powerhouse_757
- EdJiang 4y ago
  I'd love to see electric scooter / e-bike companies also adopt this technology too. My scooter has a 550Whr battery and I'd love to use it as a power station for some of my devices on the go.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    I have a 1200mWh bike light that lets you charge stuff off it's battery, it's a life saver. I have used it to charge my phone and my rear lights in a pinch. I am just remembering now that my e-bike has a USB port for charging off the battery too. I don't ride it much so I haven't used it yet, but I assume I could charge just about anything to full capacity off it.
  - dd36 4y ago
    I use Ryobi batteries on e scooter. Super handy.
- bombcar 4y ago
  This is starting to get into the range of things like Milwaukee’s “generator replacement”: https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Equipment/Power-Supply/MXF002-2XC https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Equipment/Power-Suppl...
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    The MX line is absurdly expensive. Not if you need a cordless jackhammer of course, but for most people. The residential version of that product would be the EGO unit that can accept 4x 672wh batteries (56V*12ah). Those EGO 12ah are expensive, but still less than the MX XC406 at 6ah. It’s an exciting time for battery tools. EDIT: As compared to the MX or Anker units above, I have use for the EGO batteries while the power is on between lawn mower, snow blower, string trimmer, leaf blower, and chainsaw. So while the batteries can be thought of as consumable, I like that they don’t just sit in the corner forever.
epistasis 4y ago
This is great but I also wish that Toyota would start shipping a lot more EVs. They have been far behind the trend and made some poor bets on the future of technology. I fear that the poor renewable resources available to Japan, compared to most nations, has colored their judgement when it comes to the global market. I would love an EV Sienna, for example. Really hate that moment of filling up with gas with my kids in the car, the cognitive dissonance of fucking over their future in such direct sight is painful.
- colordrops 4y ago
  They are an old, lethargic company. They won't do anything truly innovative until they cut the fat and get agile. I interviewed with Woven Planet, their automated driving division and it was a complete joke. They focused more on creating motivational videos and designing fancy offices than on solving problems.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    They don't even need to innovate, just copy the path laid out to them. They can already make the batteries, apparently, let's just put them in cars and let me stop putting a pound of CO2 into the atmosphere for every mile I drive. Even better would be able to live in a place that let me have a family without a car, because there was adequate transit. And though I'm working hard on that locally, it will take time, if it ever succeeds. And most parts of the country will never even attempt that :(
    - landemva 4y ago
      That depends on the country. Even in USA, there are plenty of places with great transportation for those willing to live the talk.
      - epistasis 4y ago
Animats 4y ago
That's a nice backup unit. That's very Japanese, weatherproof and suitable for outside wall installation on a concrete wall. Tesla's Powerwall is intended for indoor installation. This is something to bolt on the wall alongside the outside part of the split air conditioner.
- jccooper 4y ago
  Powerwall is installable outdoors. Though like all batteries (including this one) it will do better in moderate temperatures.
- _JamesA_ 4y ago
  >Tesla's Powerwall is intended for indoor installation. Powerwalls can be installed outdoors. Mine are installed on the exterior of my home. I have seen discussions of local codes in parts of the country requiring them to be installed outside due to perceived fire risk.
  - jazzyjackson 4y ago
    > perceived fire risk. > https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/fire-breaks-out-tesla-australia-mega-battery-during-testing-2021-07-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/fire-breaks-out-t...
    - zucker42 4y ago
      To be fair, an actual fire risk is one of the biggest reasons something might be perceived to be a fire risk.
- cptcobalt 4y ago
  Powerwall can be installed outdoors: https://www.tesla.com/powerwall#powerwall-specifications https://www.tesla.com/powerwall#powerwall-specifications
- landemva 4y ago
  Are these backups with a transfer switch, or in-line? Real in-line would be great during voltage sags.
aetherspawn 4y ago
It's unclear, but if this is Toyota's proven NiMH technology from the Prius, rather than Lithium technology (i.e. in the Tesla Powerwall), I'd personally opt for this. It will last longer, and is a lot safer. Unlike Lithium, NiMH is not particularly unstable at high temperatures or flammable. And Prius batteries have been proven to last more than 20 years (at reduced capacity) without any safety problems -- we don't ever see Prius' catching fire.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  nickel metal hydride? is that really better. i never had good experience with those. lifepo4 is where it's at.
  - aetherspawn 4y ago
    NiMH is "better" for residential (in my opinion) in the sense that it is more inert than any Li-based battery. If you crush or set fire to LiFePo4, it will burn. What's interesting is because Toyota has been developing the NiMH for so long, it has achieved densities of approx. 150Wh/kg, which actually makes it about as good as Lithium technology from 5 years ago, but without any of the stability problems.
    - pengaru 4y ago
      NiMH were incredibly annoying back when I last messed with RC cars, which was when NiMH was the latest and greatest battery chemistry in use there. They rarely delivered in practice what was in writing quite promising capacities, and they were incredibly delicate when it came to heat. The wikipedia page for NiMH also mentions things like venting hydrogen gas when overcharged... Looking through the LiFePo4 pages on wikipedia the safety and durability profile seems superior to NiMH, but maybe the LiFePo4 pages there are just fixated on vs. other Li-Ion chemistries. My impression ATM is if you've got LiFePo4 available it's preferable to NiMH. And my personal experience with a LiFePo4 portable battery booster for jumping cars and emergency charging stuff has been an incredibly positive one. The thing is like a tiny weightless magic box that tolerates incredible abuse without losing any charge even stored for a year in desert temps, and somehow manages to put out enough current to start large-displacement high-compression V8s.
cptcobalt 4y ago
For comparison to the Tesla Powerwall, in specs that matter: Power: Toyota: 5.5 kW, Powerwall: 9.6 kW (off-grid). Energy Storage: Toyota: 8.7 kWh, Powerwall: 13.5 kWh. If you estimate an average power use of 2kW while off-grid, then the Powerwall gets you 6.7 hours, and the Toyota gets you 4.3 hours of power.
- rtpg 4y ago
  I wonder what the average power usage is for this target market. I just pulled up my (Tokyo-based, February, 2 person ap't) power bill and it comes out to 670W on average over the month. People complain about lack of central heating, but I do wonder if that means that in the end lots of space is not being heated. EDIT: According to [0], Household consumption on average in Japan hovers between 800W and ... 1200W. Of course bigger battery = more time, but 8 hours and 4 hours is definitely qualitatively different. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291424/japan-energy-consumption-per-household-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291424/japan-energy-con...
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    They're quantatively different :-)
- zcbenz 4y ago
  In Japan, Powerwall is also significantly cheaper than all Japanese maker batteries, last time I checked Powerwall's per-kWh price is only 1/5 of a Panasonic one. How could this happen?
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Apparently Panasonic doesn't actually want to sell them.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Also Nissan Leaf price (3700kJPY/40kWh, without any grant) is closer to Powerwall (1200kJPY/13.5kWh, without any grant), despite Leaf come with full vehicle feature and V2H. I think Japan home battery market lacks competition.
duxup 4y ago
What is the lifetime for a battery like this?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  That’s an impossible question to answer without defining what dead means. It’s going to degrade over a very long time with no clear point that marks end of life.
  - duxup 4y ago
    Someone probably gives lifetime numbers with some context . Probably not impossible.
photochemsyn 4y ago
In the long run it's likely that large household batteries like this for aiding in load balancing with solar/wind-centric electrical grids will become as ubiquitous as hot water heaters are.
- TheDong 4y ago
  Why would they be ubiquitous at the household level, not centralized as a "electric grid backup battery", like Australia's "big battery" https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ ? For hot water heaters, it's obvious that the water would arrive cold if it were boiled in a central location, but electricity can be transmit so efficiently that storing excess load will be much more efficient in centralized locations rather than at individual houses. My guess is that this will be roughly as common as household generators, since both this and a generator are hedges against the electric grid failing more than anything else. The equivalent water analogy would be everyone having their own household water cistern in case the water system failed, which I also think is vanishingly rare.
  - ephbit 4y ago
    > Why would they be ubiquitous at the household level, not centralized as a "electric grid backup battery", like Australia's "big battery"? Let's assume the existing electrical grid to be a somewhat fixed system that gets augmented from time to time here and there but does not get changed in fundamental parameters like voltage. Then there's a certain grid capacity for transmitting power (watts) from central nodes (existing or former big power stations) to that large number of end nodes (homes) or in the opposite direction. Let's also assume that the combined capacity of all the power lines which connect the homes to the grid massively exceeds the capacity of those (big) lines that connect the "central nodes" to the grid. This means, that there exists a certain level in the hierarchy of the electrical grid (between central nodes and end nodes) where the lines do indeed match the capacity of all homes. I'd think, these are the locations where you would build/connect centralized big batteries to the grid. Because you could then take up all solar power from homes and at the same time you'd have some centralisation which would make building the facilities less expensive because of economy of scale.
2Gkashmiri 4y ago
Does anyone know of a home battery solution in India that does not cost more than the price of a small car? I have read the per kWh price is around 9-12k inr but the retail price is around 22-40k per kWh which is just outrageous by the 2-3 retailers I know of. Has anyone bought anything other than lead acid ? I am in the market for like 5-20 kWh if the per kWh actually goes down to sane levels. Suppose 15k per kWh * 20 =300k which is quite reasonable if we get 5-10 year warranty
- xbmcuser 4y ago
  If you have the space I think you would be better off using lead acid batteries or wait another 5-10 years. Though lithium based battery production costs are still falling 10-20% a year the demand even at current prices is high enough that we are not getting better prices at consumer wholesale let alone retail. So far to me it seems the battery demand from electric car manufacturers as well as grid scale battery installations is rising faster than the supply. With the current gas and oil prices the demand is going to increase even faster where as supply will still take years to catch up.
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    i understand that but the lead acid vs lithium pricing is complicated to say the least. here is an example i got recently. 12v 4 qty 200 Ah =9600 wh with usable around half so 5kwh. it would cost me INR 100,000 almost with a 5 year warranty. this is lead acid one lithium i got a quote for 48v 100ah = 110,000 INR for 3-5 years warranty. the seller is pushing me to buy the lithium battery but the pricing is not competitive enough imo. they are charging me a huge markup so unless i buy from their suppliers, i dont see the benefit of paying he dealer a huge markup for no "addition" of theirs. to put this lithium into perspective, https://okayaev.com/faast/ https://okayaev.com/faast/ this scooter is selling for the same 100,000 with a 4.5 kwh battery. i know its 72v vs 48v but just saying they are giving the same battery + entire scooter so the battery should definitely not cost this much
davidravid 4y ago
it looks amazing solution, how much it cost?
speedgoose 4y ago
Does it mean Toyota will finally stop saying they rather sell hybrids than electric cars because their battery supply chain is limited?
cko 4y ago
If I want to build a modest cabin in a continental climate powered purely by solar+batteries, could I put the batteries underground for temperature stability? I don't know much about this subject, but I'm scared of battery fires and I don't see anyone doing the underground thing, so I'm probably missing something.
- markdown 4y ago
  Spontaneous battery fires are extremely rare. The cases you hear about are due to damage (a dropped phone or a car crash). The stove in your cabin (and you) are a far greater risk than a battery would be.
  - dangrossman 4y ago
    Hundreds of thousands of electric cars have been recalled due to risk of spontaneous battery fires with no damage, recalls initiated due to a dozen or two such spontaneous battery fires occurring in parked, unplugged vehicles. The batteries in almost all cases were manufactured by LG Chem, and the cause of the fires was several potential manufacturing defects, including torn anode tabs and folded separators, that could lead to a short circuit condition when the battery cell expanded and contracted, such as after charging the car. Recalls included the Chevy Bolt, Chevy Bolt EUV, Hyundai Kona EV, Smart ForTwo Electric, Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, and some VW ID.4s. LG Chem's stationary battery packs for home/solar use were also recalled for spontaneous fire risk.
    - morepork 4y ago
      ICE cars are also not immune, for example: On April 25, 1996, Ford Motor Company announced it would conduct one of the largest recalls for a safety-related defect in the history of the U.S. Department of Transportation. The recall covered approximately 7,900,000 Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury vehicles in the U.S. from model year 1988 through 1993 for a defect in the ignition switch causing the cars to catch ablaze spontaneously (NHTSA recall number 96V-071). https://www.autosafety.org/ford-ignition-switch-fires/ https://www.autosafety.org/ford-ignition-switch-fires/
ngcc_hk 4y ago
It is sad its new car with 70kwh cannot be a battery like ionic …
ender7 4y ago
Just for comparison, the extended-range Ford Lightning pickup truck (the one that can power a home for three days) has a 131 kWh battery.
- InefficientRed 4y ago
  F150 is 98 kWh standard range, 131 extended. But the important point is this sentence: Toyota explained that the system supports supplying power from hybrid electric vehicles Presumably, this means you have a short, medium, and long option for emergency power: - short: the battery - medium: the battery + your car's battery - long: use your ($25K) Prius as a gas generator to power your home for as long as necessary. This seems like a more versatile setup than the e F150 at least for my use cases (rural WV -- power might be out for long periods but I can always get gas). It'll be interesting to see the price range of course, but this could be a good "mostly battery + gas if needed" backup option to compete with the diesel generator situation now. And of course the eF150 isn't really a good backup power (or transportation!) option in my case. The eF150 generator use case always seemed like suburban prepper fantasy bullshit. The actual use case is for running power tools on site.
  - brtkdotse 4y ago
    I’m planning for solar cells and looked into the possibility of running my house as a micro grid (ie disconnect it from the main grid) in case of a prolonged power outage. Turns out that unless you redneck engineer it, running your house without a main grid to synchronize to is very costly - among other things you need to supply your own grid grounding and that could easily run into the high €x000.
    - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
      > you need to supply your own grid grounding What does this mean? My naive reading would presume a stake in the ground?
      - dmoy 4y ago
moistly 4y ago
Having watched a video or two, I would not want that battery to be within twenty feet of my house. Just like I keep the BBQ away from the house. Rather not unnecessarily increase the risk of fire. Come to think about it, lining one’s garage with a double layer of overlapping gyproc firewall might be wise. EVs burn hot.
notorandit 4y ago
It also has vents on the upper corners. Or some assembly and QA issues.
tibbydudeza 4y ago
Living in South Africa you need to plan around electricity issues. Our coal plants are old and break down frequently and the new ones they built has design flaws so we have rotational blackouts lasting about 2.5 hours daily. Bought a 1000W inverter with 12V deepcycle gel 100AH battery for the home office - it has a solar charger but we are in winter so that has to wait.
farmin 4y ago
I am just about to have a 3 phase 30kva diesel generator installed on our farm for backup power. Multiple people had asked me, why not get a big battery? I honestly hadn't thought it was a viable option. Not sure. I want to power two houses in middle of summer or winter (-2 to 45 degrees C range). Power outages can last up to 24hr.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Solar panels + batteries can already make good economic sense. You would increase the size of the batteries to give enough capacity to last through a power cut. (Your climate is outside what I'm familiar with, so I don't have any instinct for the economics.)
- plufz 4y ago
  Are the outages usually shorter? Could you maybe get a smaller battery to cover most events and use the diesel for the extreme cases?
- filleduchaos 4y ago
  If you plan on keeping the same quality of life/not thinking about what kind of power you're using, go with the generator. If you're ready to make some sacrifices/be a lot more conscientious with energy use, take the battery capacity you think you need and then double it. Air conditioning, heating, stuff like microwaves and electric cookers, dryers, etc consume an absolute ton of power, and I imagine you'd have even more high-power appliances on a farm.
  - farmin 4y ago
    This describes me. I can also get a high power genset, Chinese built but brand name, for fairly cheap. It's old tech.
musk8tor 4y ago
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
danfo 4y ago
I like the idea of a modular battery such as Sungrow SBR series for the ability to scale up: https://www.acsolarwarehouse.com/news/sungrow-battery-and-hybrid-inverters-simplifies-solar-and-storage/ https://www.acsolarwarehouse.com/news/sungrow-battery-and-hy... Each module is 3.2kWh. Can start with a small stack of 3 modules (9.6kWh), knowing this can be trivially upgraded 2.6x later without blowing out the cost.
filleduchaos 4y ago
The way especially Americans talk about backup battery solutions confuses me. The Tesla Powerwall is spoken of as though it were a particularly unique innovation, and it's apparently news for Toyota to unveil an...8.7kWh battery. They just seem like par for the course to me, on the way too expensive side even. Then again most of the products that have existed in this space/have been deployed in the developing world are from India and China, so it's perhaps not surprising that Westerners haven't been drooling over those.
kkfx 4y ago
Ante-litteram I've made the very same system for myself: a small p.v. with 8kWh LiFeP BYD storage to have: - AC coupled solar inverter functioning in case of an outage - battery backup for critical loads (fridge, freezer, VMC, lights, computers) in the same case when there is no Sun shining - a small generator to recharge in case of emergency I feel the pain of a totally non-integrated IoT where devices can be barely commanded via ModBUS and only some can be monitored via ModBUS or MQTT, crappy flexibility and overall design etc... No vehicle-to-home integration so far (while a monodirectional to recharge an EV from p.v. depending on current availability is on sale from my battery inverter vendor) and an uncertain possible future expansion due to the crappy design EVEN if I choose "the most flexible and open solution on the market" (that's not their advertisement, that's what I've read in various forum) a Duch-centered brand with a light blue colored theme... I still wait for: - a damn open and common protocol to pilot IoT devices - a damn realist design, witch means knowing how "a complete home" can be instead of try selling self-contained walled gardens crap I doubt without public research that happen soon...
tedk-42 4y ago
Honestly I'd rather a battery that's super reliable and NOT using any lithium ion inside it in my home. As it doesn't need to move, it can sit there in an unused space and be really heavy. Lead Acid Batteries are a very good fit here (traditionally used as the 12V battery in cars). In Australia you can buy a 12V 42AH (amp-hour) battery for ~$150AUD or $100USD. 20 of these will give you 10kWh @ 240VDC. Couple this with a 6kW solar system and you'd be almost entirely free from grid electricity, especially in summer. You can individually test out the batteries and swap out bad ones. The batteries themselves typically last >5years in a car and I imagine much longer at home where they aren't exposed to high engine temps and large continuous current discharges (engine cranking on start up).
- vardump 4y ago
  Is there any data about battery safety, like NiMH vs LiFePO4 vs lead acid [add your favorite chemistry here]? I understand LiFePO4 batteries to be exceedingly safe. They don't overheat or catch fire even if punctured. Lead acid batteries, well, contain lead, which, as a father, is not something I want in our house. It can also produce hydrogen and oxygen, potentially causing an explosion.
  - AbortedLaunch 4y ago
    Lead acid batteries can also produce hydrogen sulfide, which occasionally kills boat occupants using them.
- beefield 4y ago
  You might want to check LiFePO4 battery chemistry. Heavier than Li-Ion, but longevity is better, as well as safety. I have been told that you can hammer a nail through a cell and nothing spectacular happens. (One) trouble with lead acid is that deep discharges are really bad for the longevity of the battery. So you can use only a small fraction of the capacity if you want to run regular cycles form it.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    LiFePO4 is great - especially as an addition to solar systems currently using lead acid. If you add a couple of LiFePO4 batteries before your lead acid (you should do some basic math where you have enough LiFePO4 to last about 1-2 days, depending on your location, without having to hit the lead) using a DC-DC charger (which does reduce efficiency - but that's ok) you increase the size of your pack, really help pull ALL the power out of your solar that you can, add a very safe battery (LiFePO4 is really safe compared to traditional lithium), and best of all, you really, really, really extend the lifespan of your lead. I mean like, you probably will never be able to kill your lead doing this, for multiple reasons: primarily, you're just not using it that much, but you're also really keeping it topped off when you do use it. The key is that lead acid isn't great at sucking up charge when it is 80-100% charged. So it is really hard to "catch up" charge with solar, even if you have a ton of it. Solar is not going to put out more than it draws. So if your batteries will only accept some X of AMPs to charge, that is all you're getting (well, you can use extra power for other stuff when this is happening, if you're set up that way, like powering appliances, so you can get some benefit still). However, with LiFePO4 - that bad boy will take all the power you can throw at it (well, not technically, but for the purposes of a solar array, sure) and top off really quick. Then, when the sun is down, it charges your lead. I think the benefits of this is more important for smaller arrays with fewer lead acid batteries, and where the LiFePO4 battery will be a single $500 100ah battery (rather than 10 of those), but I imagine even in large large setups this could really help. LiFePO4 is amazing but I think the cheapest you can go right now by buying used server rack equipment is like $250 for $100ah? So 2.5x or more the price of lead, and you're comparing a used battery vs a new battery (and with the lead, $100 will probably get you a reputable battery, not some no-name used LiFePO4 battery).
smileysteve 4y ago
Many comments here are concerned about the flammability of lithium, though in a stationary form, cooling and ignition are pre-emptabe via water or a phase change encasing.
pmoriarty 4y ago
Can gravity batteries[1] be practical for residential use? How would they compare to the other options like lithium and lead batteries? [1] - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220511-can-gravity-batteries-solve-our-energy-storage-problems https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220511-can-gravity-batt...
- Cerium 4y ago
  No, the energy density is poor. Gravitational potential energy depends on mass and height (mass * gravitational acceleration * height = energy in joules). If your whole house went up and down 10 meters it would store just a handful of kWh, maybe 1 to 10 depending on the mass of your house.
vonadz 4y ago
We have pretty thorough reviews of other popular batteries in this space (https://findenergy.com/solar/battery-storage/#most-popular-brands-for-solar-batteries-for-home https://findenergy.com/solar/battery-storage/#most-popular-b...), in case anyone wants to compare.
mabbo 4y ago
I'm just happy to see more competition in this space. More competition will drive down costs and increase innovation. Give me 20 companies all trying to sell me the perfect solution for my home, please! When we reach a day that most homes have a basic battery like this in them to balance their power draw, power sources like wind and solar- which have variable output- become increasingly more economically viable. Oh, you can only produce when it's sunny/windy? That's fine, half the homes in the country are willing to pay you for energy right now and then use it later when it's not. What I'd love to see next: larger units for condo/apartment buildings. Put a massive battery pack on the roof, or next to the parking garage. Because of the shared draw, there would be a very consistent daily pattern of use, and you could right-size the battery to ensure maximum utility of it.
AndrianV 4y ago
This is showing what the industry’s can produce and I think it great but they never tell us end user costs?

300 points by xbmcuser 4y ago

How much will it cost?

Editorial mistake aside, is that a 1.1 kW output? That's not a lot of power at all and wouldn't power my kettle. Edit: nevermind

kumarvvr 4y ago
Article says 5.5 kW peak power.
- martyvis 4y ago
  So at full rated output power, 5.5kW, it can supply that for 12 minutes (60*1.1/5.5), right? That doesn't seem to be much capacity. Running at say 1kW output you aren't even going to run for an hour. EDIT: The article must be b0rken. The spec sheet from Toyota says the storage unit capacity is 8.7kWh - where did the 1.1kWh get derived from?
  - scq 4y ago
    It's an 8.7 kWh battery, so it can supply it for 1h35m (8.7/5.5). The 1.1 kW number is the power of the EV charging adapter for the system.
    - gcbirzan 4y ago
      The issue is that they say 1.1kWh, instead of 1.1kW, misleading you to believe that it can only output that much energy (total), rather than power (per hour).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

teaearlgraycold 4y ago

Not sure how much I should be reading from a website that can’t get units right.

kumarvvr 4y ago

Looks like they are developing new markets to get to the cost advantages of scale.

thegeekpirate 4y ago

Looks like this is the official announcement: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/36615119.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/36615119.html

neonroku 4y ago
here’s the Japanese version: https://www.toyota.co.jp/homebattery/ https://www.toyota.co.jp/homebattery/
- mceachen 4y ago
  Google translation of that page to English: https://www-toyota-co-jp.translate.goog/homebattery/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-toyota-co-jp.translate.goog/homebattery/?_x_tr_s...
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
They're not saying what the "vehicle adapter" spec is. I'm very curious. I know that CHAdeMO is spec'd to allow vehicle-to-house, but good luck finding an inverter device that has a connector for. My 2018 Mitusbishi Outlander PHEV has a CHAdeMO outlet, it would be handy to take backup power from it as a generator. (I use the 12Amp outlet package on it for that, but that's only good for 1 appliance really). If other people are right about it being NiMH this could actually be a really interesting product.
- solidr53 4y ago
  The CCS connector equivalent is relying on the onboard DC-AC converter for V2L-V2G, hence no inverter needed. The CCS cable uses a resistor between PE and PP pin to allow the EVSE to determine its current capacity, 1–2.7kΩ for single-phase 13A all the way down to 50–150Ω for three-phase 63A. [1] What manufacturers have done is tap into that and use some resistance to tell the car to go to V2L mode. - Hyundai IONIQ5 and Kia EV6 use 50-75Ω for its V2L adapter, offering 3.6kW load - MG ZS uses 470Ω offering 2.2kW load - Ford F-150 to offer 9.6kW load, but resistor is unknown - BYD vehicles to offer 2.2kW load but resistor is unknown [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Proximity_Pilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Proximity_Pilot

1270018080 4y ago

The Tesla powerwall is 13.7 kWh. I would bet this will be priced better per kWh because there's less of a status symbol to it, but 8.7 is a lot smaller.

epistasis 4y ago
A bit smaller is probably good for right-sizing the install. The option to put 2-4 on a larger house is great.
toast0 4y ago
Hard to know from this PR, but I'd assume you can get two or more of these if you need more storage or more output. IIRC, Tesla does 1-3 powerwall units in their standard sales process? Storage capacity needs will vary based on the use, but over an hour of use seems like it would take care of a lot of people's needs in my seat of the pants estimate. And for many of those that don't have their needs met with 8.7kWh, 13.7kWh isn't going to do it either.
- vwoolf 4y ago
  I was just talking to a relation about this, and he said Tesla's guy said he needs two Powerwalls to replace a generator in the event of power interruption. Is that true, or a sales guy thing? I'm not sure and haven't investigated.
  - toast0 4y ago
    It depends on your relation's power usage, I'd imagine. I believe the spec is 5.5kW max output, which is probably insufficient if you've got any sort of large load. My well pump is rated for 30A @ 220V, so startup would likely overwhelm a single powerwall, and I think my air conditioners have similar startup needs (and I've got multiple units); we managed to trip the overcurrent protection on our 35 kW whole house generator during one of our early outages (it's unfortunately not connected to the well pump, overcurrent was just from using multiple heat pumps and washing/drying clothes; dryer heat is from propane. We had a nearly 3 day outage our first winter. However, at my previous house, I didn't have any substantial electric loads, other than an electric water heater in an underused ADU, so 5.5kW would have been likely been fine, and our typical energy use was around 1kW, so we would have had several hours for service to be restored, which fit within the experienced outages.

megraf 4y ago

>operating temperatures ranging from -20 C to 45 C. I'm curious to see how thermal management is done. 45 C is not _that_ hot for a black box in the [insert warm place] heat during summer. I'm also curious if they were able to use the casement as a heatsink in itself

duxup 4y ago
Also -20 isn’t unheard of in some places, upper Midwest USA and north….i wonder if it could warm itself if needed?
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  Lots of people with electric cars have no idea their batteries have heating and cooling packages. I would assume this does as well.
  - jazzyjackson 4y ago
    it's always puzzled me when my prius prime asks for permission to use AC while charging, like what are you asking me for bro do what you gotta do
    - OJFord 4y ago
      I suppose if you don't want it to for whatever reason it'll shut off if it gets too hot (perhaps short of where it would otherwise start cooling) instead?
      - qwertox 4y ago
        Or charge slower.
    - danuker 4y ago
      It is warming up the exterior of the car (pumping heat out of the battery). If you have a garage integrated into the home, I guess it might be undesirable.

slimsag 4y ago

Orthogonal: Anker has been working on a 1.2 kWh portable battery that you can charge directly from regular outlets, or solar panels, as an alternative to generators. It's a pretty cool little device[1], I've been thinking about getting one. I hope they go bigger. [1] https://www.anker.com/powerhouse_757 https://www.anker.com/powerhouse_757

EdJiang 4y ago
I'd love to see electric scooter / e-bike companies also adopt this technology too. My scooter has a 550Whr battery and I'd love to use it as a power station for some of my devices on the go.
- ehnto 4y ago
  I have a 1200mWh bike light that lets you charge stuff off it's battery, it's a life saver. I have used it to charge my phone and my rear lights in a pinch. I am just remembering now that my e-bike has a USB port for charging off the battery too. I don't ride it much so I haven't used it yet, but I assume I could charge just about anything to full capacity off it.
- dd36 4y ago
  I use Ryobi batteries on e scooter. Super handy.
bombcar 4y ago
This is starting to get into the range of things like Milwaukee’s “generator replacement”: https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Equipment/Power-Supply/MXF002-2XC https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Equipment/Power-Suppl...
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  The MX line is absurdly expensive. Not if you need a cordless jackhammer of course, but for most people. The residential version of that product would be the EGO unit that can accept 4x 672wh batteries (56V*12ah). Those EGO 12ah are expensive, but still less than the MX XC406 at 6ah. It’s an exciting time for battery tools. EDIT: As compared to the MX or Anker units above, I have use for the EGO batteries while the power is on between lawn mower, snow blower, string trimmer, leaf blower, and chainsaw. So while the batteries can be thought of as consumable, I like that they don’t just sit in the corner forever.

epistasis 4y ago

This is great but I also wish that Toyota would start shipping a lot more EVs. They have been far behind the trend and made some poor bets on the future of technology. I fear that the poor renewable resources available to Japan, compared to most nations, has colored their judgement when it comes to the global market. I would love an EV Sienna, for example. Really hate that moment of filling up with gas with my kids in the car, the cognitive dissonance of fucking over their future in such direct sight is painful.

colordrops 4y ago
They are an old, lethargic company. They won't do anything truly innovative until they cut the fat and get agile. I interviewed with Woven Planet, their automated driving division and it was a complete joke. They focused more on creating motivational videos and designing fancy offices than on solving problems.
- epistasis 4y ago
  They don't even need to innovate, just copy the path laid out to them. They can already make the batteries, apparently, let's just put them in cars and let me stop putting a pound of CO2 into the atmosphere for every mile I drive. Even better would be able to live in a place that let me have a family without a car, because there was adequate transit. And though I'm working hard on that locally, it will take time, if it ever succeeds. And most parts of the country will never even attempt that :(
  - landemva 4y ago
    That depends on the country. Even in USA, there are plenty of places with great transportation for those willing to live the talk.
    - epistasis 4y ago

Animats 4y ago

That's a nice backup unit. That's very Japanese, weatherproof and suitable for outside wall installation on a concrete wall. Tesla's Powerwall is intended for indoor installation. This is something to bolt on the wall alongside the outside part of the split air conditioner.

jccooper 4y ago
Powerwall is installable outdoors. Though like all batteries (including this one) it will do better in moderate temperatures.
_JamesA_ 4y ago
>Tesla's Powerwall is intended for indoor installation. Powerwalls can be installed outdoors. Mine are installed on the exterior of my home. I have seen discussions of local codes in parts of the country requiring them to be installed outside due to perceived fire risk.
- jazzyjackson 4y ago
  > perceived fire risk. > https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/fire-breaks-out-tesla-australia-mega-battery-during-testing-2021-07-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/fire-breaks-out-t...
  - zucker42 4y ago
    To be fair, an actual fire risk is one of the biggest reasons something might be perceived to be a fire risk.
cptcobalt 4y ago
Powerwall can be installed outdoors: https://www.tesla.com/powerwall#powerwall-specifications https://www.tesla.com/powerwall#powerwall-specifications
landemva 4y ago
Are these backups with a transfer switch, or in-line? Real in-line would be great during voltage sags.

aetherspawn 4y ago

It's unclear, but if this is Toyota's proven NiMH technology from the Prius, rather than Lithium technology (i.e. in the Tesla Powerwall), I'd personally opt for this. It will last longer, and is a lot safer. Unlike Lithium, NiMH is not particularly unstable at high temperatures or flammable. And Prius batteries have been proven to last more than 20 years (at reduced capacity) without any safety problems -- we don't ever see Prius' catching fire.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
denimnerd42 4y ago
nickel metal hydride? is that really better. i never had good experience with those. lifepo4 is where it's at.
- aetherspawn 4y ago
  NiMH is "better" for residential (in my opinion) in the sense that it is more inert than any Li-based battery. If you crush or set fire to LiFePo4, it will burn. What's interesting is because Toyota has been developing the NiMH for so long, it has achieved densities of approx. 150Wh/kg, which actually makes it about as good as Lithium technology from 5 years ago, but without any of the stability problems.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    NiMH were incredibly annoying back when I last messed with RC cars, which was when NiMH was the latest and greatest battery chemistry in use there. They rarely delivered in practice what was in writing quite promising capacities, and they were incredibly delicate when it came to heat. The wikipedia page for NiMH also mentions things like venting hydrogen gas when overcharged... Looking through the LiFePo4 pages on wikipedia the safety and durability profile seems superior to NiMH, but maybe the LiFePo4 pages there are just fixated on vs. other Li-Ion chemistries. My impression ATM is if you've got LiFePo4 available it's preferable to NiMH. And my personal experience with a LiFePo4 portable battery booster for jumping cars and emergency charging stuff has been an incredibly positive one. The thing is like a tiny weightless magic box that tolerates incredible abuse without losing any charge even stored for a year in desert temps, and somehow manages to put out enough current to start large-displacement high-compression V8s.

cptcobalt 4y ago

For comparison to the Tesla Powerwall, in specs that matter: Power: Toyota: 5.5 kW, Powerwall: 9.6 kW (off-grid). Energy Storage: Toyota: 8.7 kWh, Powerwall: 13.5 kWh. If you estimate an average power use of 2kW while off-grid, then the Powerwall gets you 6.7 hours, and the Toyota gets you 4.3 hours of power.

rtpg 4y ago
I wonder what the average power usage is for this target market. I just pulled up my (Tokyo-based, February, 2 person ap't) power bill and it comes out to 670W on average over the month. People complain about lack of central heating, but I do wonder if that means that in the end lots of space is not being heated. EDIT: According to [0], Household consumption on average in Japan hovers between 800W and ... 1200W. Of course bigger battery = more time, but 8 hours and 4 hours is definitely qualitatively different. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291424/japan-energy-consumption-per-household-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291424/japan-energy-con...
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  They're quantatively different :-)
zcbenz 4y ago
In Japan, Powerwall is also significantly cheaper than all Japanese maker batteries, last time I checked Powerwall's per-kWh price is only 1/5 of a Panasonic one. How could this happen?
- Tade0 4y ago
  Apparently Panasonic doesn't actually want to sell them.
- fomine3 4y ago
  Also Nissan Leaf price (3700kJPY/40kWh, without any grant) is closer to Powerwall (1200kJPY/13.5kWh, without any grant), despite Leaf come with full vehicle feature and V2H. I think Japan home battery market lacks competition.

duxup 4y ago

What is the lifetime for a battery like this?

Gigachad 4y ago
That’s an impossible question to answer without defining what dead means. It’s going to degrade over a very long time with no clear point that marks end of life.
- duxup 4y ago
  Someone probably gives lifetime numbers with some context . Probably not impossible.

photochemsyn 4y ago

In the long run it's likely that large household batteries like this for aiding in load balancing with solar/wind-centric electrical grids will become as ubiquitous as hot water heaters are.

TheDong 4y ago
Why would they be ubiquitous at the household level, not centralized as a "electric grid backup battery", like Australia's "big battery" https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ ? For hot water heaters, it's obvious that the water would arrive cold if it were boiled in a central location, but electricity can be transmit so efficiently that storing excess load will be much more efficient in centralized locations rather than at individual houses. My guess is that this will be roughly as common as household generators, since both this and a generator are hedges against the electric grid failing more than anything else. The equivalent water analogy would be everyone having their own household water cistern in case the water system failed, which I also think is vanishingly rare.
- ephbit 4y ago
  > Why would they be ubiquitous at the household level, not centralized as a "electric grid backup battery", like Australia's "big battery"? Let's assume the existing electrical grid to be a somewhat fixed system that gets augmented from time to time here and there but does not get changed in fundamental parameters like voltage. Then there's a certain grid capacity for transmitting power (watts) from central nodes (existing or former big power stations) to that large number of end nodes (homes) or in the opposite direction. Let's also assume that the combined capacity of all the power lines which connect the homes to the grid massively exceeds the capacity of those (big) lines that connect the "central nodes" to the grid. This means, that there exists a certain level in the hierarchy of the electrical grid (between central nodes and end nodes) where the lines do indeed match the capacity of all homes. I'd think, these are the locations where you would build/connect centralized big batteries to the grid. Because you could then take up all solar power from homes and at the same time you'd have some centralisation which would make building the facilities less expensive because of economy of scale.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago

Does anyone know of a home battery solution in India that does not cost more than the price of a small car? I have read the per kWh price is around 9-12k inr but the retail price is around 22-40k per kWh which is just outrageous by the 2-3 retailers I know of. Has anyone bought anything other than lead acid ? I am in the market for like 5-20 kWh if the per kWh actually goes down to sane levels. Suppose 15k per kWh * 20 =300k which is quite reasonable if we get 5-10 year warranty

xbmcuser 4y ago
If you have the space I think you would be better off using lead acid batteries or wait another 5-10 years. Though lithium based battery production costs are still falling 10-20% a year the demand even at current prices is high enough that we are not getting better prices at consumer wholesale let alone retail. So far to me it seems the battery demand from electric car manufacturers as well as grid scale battery installations is rising faster than the supply. With the current gas and oil prices the demand is going to increase even faster where as supply will still take years to catch up.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  i understand that but the lead acid vs lithium pricing is complicated to say the least. here is an example i got recently. 12v 4 qty 200 Ah =9600 wh with usable around half so 5kwh. it would cost me INR 100,000 almost with a 5 year warranty. this is lead acid one lithium i got a quote for 48v 100ah = 110,000 INR for 3-5 years warranty. the seller is pushing me to buy the lithium battery but the pricing is not competitive enough imo. they are charging me a huge markup so unless i buy from their suppliers, i dont see the benefit of paying he dealer a huge markup for no "addition" of theirs. to put this lithium into perspective, https://okayaev.com/faast/ https://okayaev.com/faast/ this scooter is selling for the same 100,000 with a 4.5 kwh battery. i know its 72v vs 48v but just saying they are giving the same battery + entire scooter so the battery should definitely not cost this much

davidravid 4y ago

it looks amazing solution, how much it cost?

speedgoose 4y ago

Does it mean Toyota will finally stop saying they rather sell hybrids than electric cars because their battery supply chain is limited?

cko 4y ago

If I want to build a modest cabin in a continental climate powered purely by solar+batteries, could I put the batteries underground for temperature stability? I don't know much about this subject, but I'm scared of battery fires and I don't see anyone doing the underground thing, so I'm probably missing something.

markdown 4y ago
Spontaneous battery fires are extremely rare. The cases you hear about are due to damage (a dropped phone or a car crash). The stove in your cabin (and you) are a far greater risk than a battery would be.
- dangrossman 4y ago
  Hundreds of thousands of electric cars have been recalled due to risk of spontaneous battery fires with no damage, recalls initiated due to a dozen or two such spontaneous battery fires occurring in parked, unplugged vehicles. The batteries in almost all cases were manufactured by LG Chem, and the cause of the fires was several potential manufacturing defects, including torn anode tabs and folded separators, that could lead to a short circuit condition when the battery cell expanded and contracted, such as after charging the car. Recalls included the Chevy Bolt, Chevy Bolt EUV, Hyundai Kona EV, Smart ForTwo Electric, Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, and some VW ID.4s. LG Chem's stationary battery packs for home/solar use were also recalled for spontaneous fire risk.
  - morepork 4y ago
    ICE cars are also not immune, for example: On April 25, 1996, Ford Motor Company announced it would conduct one of the largest recalls for a safety-related defect in the history of the U.S. Department of Transportation. The recall covered approximately 7,900,000 Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury vehicles in the U.S. from model year 1988 through 1993 for a defect in the ignition switch causing the cars to catch ablaze spontaneously (NHTSA recall number 96V-071). https://www.autosafety.org/ford-ignition-switch-fires/ https://www.autosafety.org/ford-ignition-switch-fires/

ngcc_hk 4y ago

It is sad its new car with 70kwh cannot be a battery like ionic …

ender7 4y ago

Just for comparison, the extended-range Ford Lightning pickup truck (the one that can power a home for three days) has a 131 kWh battery.

InefficientRed 4y ago
F150 is 98 kWh standard range, 131 extended. But the important point is this sentence: Toyota explained that the system supports supplying power from hybrid electric vehicles Presumably, this means you have a short, medium, and long option for emergency power: - short: the battery - medium: the battery + your car's battery - long: use your ($25K) Prius as a gas generator to power your home for as long as necessary. This seems like a more versatile setup than the e F150 at least for my use cases (rural WV -- power might be out for long periods but I can always get gas). It'll be interesting to see the price range of course, but this could be a good "mostly battery + gas if needed" backup option to compete with the diesel generator situation now. And of course the eF150 isn't really a good backup power (or transportation!) option in my case. The eF150 generator use case always seemed like suburban prepper fantasy bullshit. The actual use case is for running power tools on site.
- brtkdotse 4y ago
  I’m planning for solar cells and looked into the possibility of running my house as a micro grid (ie disconnect it from the main grid) in case of a prolonged power outage. Turns out that unless you redneck engineer it, running your house without a main grid to synchronize to is very costly - among other things you need to supply your own grid grounding and that could easily run into the high €x000.
  - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
    > you need to supply your own grid grounding What does this mean? My naive reading would presume a stake in the ground?
    - dmoy 4y ago

moistly 4y ago

Having watched a video or two, I would not want that battery to be within twenty feet of my house. Just like I keep the BBQ away from the house. Rather not unnecessarily increase the risk of fire. Come to think about it, lining one’s garage with a double layer of overlapping gyproc firewall might be wise. EVs burn hot.

notorandit 4y ago

It also has vents on the upper corners. Or some assembly and QA issues.

tibbydudeza 4y ago

Living in South Africa you need to plan around electricity issues. Our coal plants are old and break down frequently and the new ones they built has design flaws so we have rotational blackouts lasting about 2.5 hours daily. Bought a 1000W inverter with 12V deepcycle gel 100AH battery for the home office - it has a solar charger but we are in winter so that has to wait.

farmin 4y ago

I am just about to have a 3 phase 30kva diesel generator installed on our farm for backup power. Multiple people had asked me, why not get a big battery? I honestly hadn't thought it was a viable option. Not sure. I want to power two houses in middle of summer or winter (-2 to 45 degrees C range). Power outages can last up to 24hr.

Symbiote 4y ago
Solar panels + batteries can already make good economic sense. You would increase the size of the batteries to give enough capacity to last through a power cut. (Your climate is outside what I'm familiar with, so I don't have any instinct for the economics.)
plufz 4y ago
Are the outages usually shorter? Could you maybe get a smaller battery to cover most events and use the diesel for the extreme cases?
filleduchaos 4y ago
If you plan on keeping the same quality of life/not thinking about what kind of power you're using, go with the generator. If you're ready to make some sacrifices/be a lot more conscientious with energy use, take the battery capacity you think you need and then double it. Air conditioning, heating, stuff like microwaves and electric cookers, dryers, etc consume an absolute ton of power, and I imagine you'd have even more high-power appliances on a farm.
- farmin 4y ago
  This describes me. I can also get a high power genset, Chinese built but brand name, for fairly cheap. It's old tech.

musk8tor 4y ago

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

danfo 4y ago

I like the idea of a modular battery such as Sungrow SBR series for the ability to scale up: https://www.acsolarwarehouse.com/news/sungrow-battery-and-hybrid-inverters-simplifies-solar-and-storage/ https://www.acsolarwarehouse.com/news/sungrow-battery-and-hy... Each module is 3.2kWh. Can start with a small stack of 3 modules (9.6kWh), knowing this can be trivially upgraded 2.6x later without blowing out the cost.

filleduchaos 4y ago

The way especially Americans talk about backup battery solutions confuses me. The Tesla Powerwall is spoken of as though it were a particularly unique innovation, and it's apparently news for Toyota to unveil an...8.7kWh battery. They just seem like par for the course to me, on the way too expensive side even. Then again most of the products that have existed in this space/have been deployed in the developing world are from India and China, so it's perhaps not surprising that Westerners haven't been drooling over those.

kkfx 4y ago

Ante-litteram I've made the very same system for myself: a small p.v. with 8kWh LiFeP BYD storage to have: - AC coupled solar inverter functioning in case of an outage - battery backup for critical loads (fridge, freezer, VMC, lights, computers) in the same case when there is no Sun shining - a small generator to recharge in case of emergency I feel the pain of a totally non-integrated IoT where devices can be barely commanded via ModBUS and only some can be monitored via ModBUS or MQTT, crappy flexibility and overall design etc... No vehicle-to-home integration so far (while a monodirectional to recharge an EV from p.v. depending on current availability is on sale from my battery inverter vendor) and an uncertain possible future expansion due to the crappy design EVEN if I choose "the most flexible and open solution on the market" (that's not their advertisement, that's what I've read in various forum) a Duch-centered brand with a light blue colored theme... I still wait for: - a damn open and common protocol to pilot IoT devices - a damn realist design, witch means knowing how "a complete home" can be instead of try selling self-contained walled gardens crap I doubt without public research that happen soon...

tedk-42 4y ago

Honestly I'd rather a battery that's super reliable and NOT using any lithium ion inside it in my home. As it doesn't need to move, it can sit there in an unused space and be really heavy. Lead Acid Batteries are a very good fit here (traditionally used as the 12V battery in cars). In Australia you can buy a 12V 42AH (amp-hour) battery for ~$150AUD or $100USD. 20 of these will give you 10kWh @ 240VDC. Couple this with a 6kW solar system and you'd be almost entirely free from grid electricity, especially in summer. You can individually test out the batteries and swap out bad ones. The batteries themselves typically last >5years in a car and I imagine much longer at home where they aren't exposed to high engine temps and large continuous current discharges (engine cranking on start up).

vardump 4y ago
Is there any data about battery safety, like NiMH vs LiFePO4 vs lead acid [add your favorite chemistry here]? I understand LiFePO4 batteries to be exceedingly safe. They don't overheat or catch fire even if punctured. Lead acid batteries, well, contain lead, which, as a father, is not something I want in our house. It can also produce hydrogen and oxygen, potentially causing an explosion.
- AbortedLaunch 4y ago
  Lead acid batteries can also produce hydrogen sulfide, which occasionally kills boat occupants using them.
beefield 4y ago
You might want to check LiFePO4 battery chemistry. Heavier than Li-Ion, but longevity is better, as well as safety. I have been told that you can hammer a nail through a cell and nothing spectacular happens. (One) trouble with lead acid is that deep discharges are really bad for the longevity of the battery. So you can use only a small fraction of the capacity if you want to run regular cycles form it.
- roflyear 4y ago
  LiFePO4 is great - especially as an addition to solar systems currently using lead acid. If you add a couple of LiFePO4 batteries before your lead acid (you should do some basic math where you have enough LiFePO4 to last about 1-2 days, depending on your location, without having to hit the lead) using a DC-DC charger (which does reduce efficiency - but that's ok) you increase the size of your pack, really help pull ALL the power out of your solar that you can, add a very safe battery (LiFePO4 is really safe compared to traditional lithium), and best of all, you really, really, really extend the lifespan of your lead. I mean like, you probably will never be able to kill your lead doing this, for multiple reasons: primarily, you're just not using it that much, but you're also really keeping it topped off when you do use it. The key is that lead acid isn't great at sucking up charge when it is 80-100% charged. So it is really hard to "catch up" charge with solar, even if you have a ton of it. Solar is not going to put out more than it draws. So if your batteries will only accept some X of AMPs to charge, that is all you're getting (well, you can use extra power for other stuff when this is happening, if you're set up that way, like powering appliances, so you can get some benefit still). However, with LiFePO4 - that bad boy will take all the power you can throw at it (well, not technically, but for the purposes of a solar array, sure) and top off really quick. Then, when the sun is down, it charges your lead. I think the benefits of this is more important for smaller arrays with fewer lead acid batteries, and where the LiFePO4 battery will be a single $500 100ah battery (rather than 10 of those), but I imagine even in large large setups this could really help. LiFePO4 is amazing but I think the cheapest you can go right now by buying used server rack equipment is like $250 for $100ah? So 2.5x or more the price of lead, and you're comparing a used battery vs a new battery (and with the lead, $100 will probably get you a reputable battery, not some no-name used LiFePO4 battery).

smileysteve 4y ago

Many comments here are concerned about the flammability of lithium, though in a stationary form, cooling and ignition are pre-emptabe via water or a phase change encasing.

pmoriarty 4y ago

Can gravity batteries[1] be practical for residential use? How would they compare to the other options like lithium and lead batteries? [1] - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220511-can-gravity-batteries-solve-our-energy-storage-problems https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220511-can-gravity-batt...

Cerium 4y ago
No, the energy density is poor. Gravitational potential energy depends on mass and height (mass * gravitational acceleration * height = energy in joules). If your whole house went up and down 10 meters it would store just a handful of kWh, maybe 1 to 10 depending on the mass of your house.

vonadz 4y ago

We have pretty thorough reviews of other popular batteries in this space (https://findenergy.com/solar/battery-storage/#most-popular-brands-for-solar-batteries-for-home https://findenergy.com/solar/battery-storage/#most-popular-b...), in case anyone wants to compare.

mabbo 4y ago

I'm just happy to see more competition in this space. More competition will drive down costs and increase innovation. Give me 20 companies all trying to sell me the perfect solution for my home, please! When we reach a day that most homes have a basic battery like this in them to balance their power draw, power sources like wind and solar- which have variable output- become increasingly more economically viable. Oh, you can only produce when it's sunny/windy? That's fine, half the homes in the country are willing to pay you for energy right now and then use it later when it's not. What I'd love to see next: larger units for condo/apartment buildings. Put a massive battery pack on the roof, or next to the parking garage. Because of the shared draw, there would be a very consistent daily pattern of use, and you could right-size the battery to ensure maximum utility of it.

AndrianV 4y ago

This is showing what the industry’s can produce and I think it great but they never tell us end user costs?