4 ms·

This is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Just like daylight saving time. You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on the clock.

blowski 4y ago
From the article, I don't think they're forcing them to sleep more, but giving them the option by starting school later.
- JaceLightning 4y ago
  From the article: > Adolescents in the U.S. are chronically sleep-deprived, in part because most schools start too early. The goal of changing the start time is to allow students to sleep more. But changing the number on the clock doesn't mean students will sleep more. Allowing students to start at 8am instead of 7am will just mean they go to bed and hour later because teenagers are terrible about going to bed on time.
  - blowski 4y ago
    You're massively over-generalising there. Some will do that, sure. But this should make it better for some teenagers, without making it worse for others. That sounds like a good solution.
  - itronitron 4y ago
    They should just schedule one third of the classes to be online and from midnight to 2am.
  - thewebcount 4y ago
    > changing the number on the clock doesn't mean students will sleep more They aren’t changing the number on the clock like Daylight Saving Time did. They’re changing when you are required to arrive. They number on the clocks are staying fixed and that’s why it’s more likely to help.
ironmagma 4y ago
The thing that changes sleep isn't actually the clock changing. It's that in combination with "Our business/school opens at 8 AM every day" and the sun behaving decidedly different from that.
- JaceLightning 4y ago
  The sun rises between 5am and 7am where I live. But anyone who has flown between the East Coast and West Coast of the US knows that the sun doesn't determine when you feel tired or when you wake up: your sleep hygiene does. I used to fly to SF from Boston and wanted to go to bed at 7-8pm every night and then would wake up at 4am. Not because of sunlight but because my body was used to that schedule.
  - mod 4y ago
    The sun determines my sleep hygiene.
  - LikelyClueless 4y ago
    Many studies claim the response people have to the manipulation of light intensity, color, and duration, does effect several aspects of the person. Sleep hygiene does seem to play a large role, but the sun is likely the largest contributor to the human body's roughly 24 hour circadian rhythm.
    - JaceLightning 4y ago
      Ironically it's the wavelengths at sunrise which have the greatest affect. If teenagers are sleeping in they don't get to see these: > Researchers said the wavelengths at sunrise and sunset have the biggest impact to brain centers that regulate our circadian clock and our mood and alertness. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200220141731.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200220141731.h...
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Absolutely not my experience at all. Something as simple as the sun rising up sooner in summer makes me inclined to wake up and be active earlier, whereas winter makes me feel groggy and mediocre for several hours until the sun is actually up.
Supermancho 4y ago
This type of thinking is backwards. Ignoring modern human behavior is what has contributed to student (and faculty) performance problems for 50+ yrs. Poor performance in the earliest classes is a leading indicator for class performance overall (similar to broken window theory). Supposing (pretending?) that arbitrary time constraints will force behavior without confounding effects is the kind of willful ignorance that has perpetuated poor academic performance around the world.
- JaceLightning 4y ago
  Tell me: If you go to bed at 11pm and wake up at 7am every day, and then change time zones, do you magically go to bed at the new 11pm and wake up at the new 7am? No, of course not. Because the times you get tired and wake up have nothing to do with an arbitrary number on the wall.
  - blowski 4y ago
    There's a big ball of fire in the sky which does have a massive impact on us, and those arbitrary numbers on the wall are a proxy for that.
    - JaceLightning 4y ago
      Except it doesn't. Anyone who has traveled more than one time zone away knows this.
      - blowski 4y ago
        https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171208-what-working-through-the-dead-of-night-does-to-your-body https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171208-what-working-t... > He says night workers are exposed to low light levels during the overnight shift, but as they encounter bright natural light on the journey home, their internal clocks lock on to the normal light-dark pattern that day shift workers are on. “So, you constantly have to override this sort of biological drive from the clock saying you should be asleep.” https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/seasonal-affective-disorder-sad/overview/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/seasonal-affecti... > A lack of sunlight might stop a part of the brain called the hypothalamus working properly, which may affect the production of melatonin, serotonin, and the body's circadian rhythms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/ > Our circadian pacemaker, the suprachiasmatic nuclei (SCN) in the hypothalamus, is entrained to the 24-hour solar day via a pathway from the retina and synchronises our internal biological rhythms. Rhythmic variations in ambient illumination impact behaviours such as rest during sleep and activity during wakefulness as well as their underlying biological processes. I guess the doctors quoted in these articles didn't work in multiple timezones then.
akavi 4y ago
You might be able to make them sleep more by having there be more time between when the sun goes down and when they have to wake up. Humans aren't totally divorced from biological cycles.
wzdd 4y ago
> You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on the clock. As a matter of fact, the article cites data from Seattle and Denver which shows that teenagers slept more after schools in these areas changed the number on the clock.
- JaceLightning 4y ago
  Of course they will right away. Then after a year or two it will be the same problem again. Changing the number on the clock to get more sleep is like taking out a loan to pay down your debt: sure you will be able to pay off your housing and car payment today, but soon that loan you took out will come due.
  - NobodyNada 4y ago
    > And in Cherry Creek, a Denver-area suburb, high schoolers slept about 45 minutes longer on average, and those improvements endured even two years after the change.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Of course they will right away. > > Then after a year or two it will be the same problem again. According to the article it lasted for over two years.
bmacho 4y ago
> You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on the clock. Actually they are changing the position of the sun on the sky.

blowski 4y ago

From the article, I don't think they're forcing them to sleep more, but giving them the option by starting school later.

JaceLightning 4y ago
From the article: > Adolescents in the U.S. are chronically sleep-deprived, in part because most schools start too early. The goal of changing the start time is to allow students to sleep more. But changing the number on the clock doesn't mean students will sleep more. Allowing students to start at 8am instead of 7am will just mean they go to bed and hour later because teenagers are terrible about going to bed on time.
- blowski 4y ago
  You're massively over-generalising there. Some will do that, sure. But this should make it better for some teenagers, without making it worse for others. That sounds like a good solution.
- itronitron 4y ago
  They should just schedule one third of the classes to be online and from midnight to 2am.
- thewebcount 4y ago
  > changing the number on the clock doesn't mean students will sleep more They aren’t changing the number on the clock like Daylight Saving Time did. They’re changing when you are required to arrive. They number on the clocks are staying fixed and that’s why it’s more likely to help.

ironmagma 4y ago

The thing that changes sleep isn't actually the clock changing. It's that in combination with "Our business/school opens at 8 AM every day" and the sun behaving decidedly different from that.

JaceLightning 4y ago
The sun rises between 5am and 7am where I live. But anyone who has flown between the East Coast and West Coast of the US knows that the sun doesn't determine when you feel tired or when you wake up: your sleep hygiene does. I used to fly to SF from Boston and wanted to go to bed at 7-8pm every night and then would wake up at 4am. Not because of sunlight but because my body was used to that schedule.
- mod 4y ago
  The sun determines my sleep hygiene.
- LikelyClueless 4y ago
  Many studies claim the response people have to the manipulation of light intensity, color, and duration, does effect several aspects of the person. Sleep hygiene does seem to play a large role, but the sun is likely the largest contributor to the human body's roughly 24 hour circadian rhythm.
  - JaceLightning 4y ago
    Ironically it's the wavelengths at sunrise which have the greatest affect. If teenagers are sleeping in they don't get to see these: > Researchers said the wavelengths at sunrise and sunset have the biggest impact to brain centers that regulate our circadian clock and our mood and alertness. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200220141731.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200220141731.h...
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Absolutely not my experience at all. Something as simple as the sun rising up sooner in summer makes me inclined to wake up and be active earlier, whereas winter makes me feel groggy and mediocre for several hours until the sun is actually up.

Supermancho 4y ago

This type of thinking is backwards. Ignoring modern human behavior is what has contributed to student (and faculty) performance problems for 50+ yrs. Poor performance in the earliest classes is a leading indicator for class performance overall (similar to broken window theory). Supposing (pretending?) that arbitrary time constraints will force behavior without confounding effects is the kind of willful ignorance that has perpetuated poor academic performance around the world.

JaceLightning 4y ago
Tell me: If you go to bed at 11pm and wake up at 7am every day, and then change time zones, do you magically go to bed at the new 11pm and wake up at the new 7am? No, of course not. Because the times you get tired and wake up have nothing to do with an arbitrary number on the wall.
- blowski 4y ago
  There's a big ball of fire in the sky which does have a massive impact on us, and those arbitrary numbers on the wall are a proxy for that.
  - JaceLightning 4y ago
    Except it doesn't. Anyone who has traveled more than one time zone away knows this.
    - blowski 4y ago
      https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171208-what-working-through-the-dead-of-night-does-to-your-body https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171208-what-working-t... > He says night workers are exposed to low light levels during the overnight shift, but as they encounter bright natural light on the journey home, their internal clocks lock on to the normal light-dark pattern that day shift workers are on. “So, you constantly have to override this sort of biological drive from the clock saying you should be asleep.” https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/seasonal-affective-disorder-sad/overview/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/seasonal-affecti... > A lack of sunlight might stop a part of the brain called the hypothalamus working properly, which may affect the production of melatonin, serotonin, and the body's circadian rhythms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/ > Our circadian pacemaker, the suprachiasmatic nuclei (SCN) in the hypothalamus, is entrained to the 24-hour solar day via a pathway from the retina and synchronises our internal biological rhythms. Rhythmic variations in ambient illumination impact behaviours such as rest during sleep and activity during wakefulness as well as their underlying biological processes. I guess the doctors quoted in these articles didn't work in multiple timezones then.

akavi 4y ago

You might be able to make them sleep more by having there be more time between when the sun goes down and when they have to wake up. Humans aren't totally divorced from biological cycles.

wzdd 4y ago

> You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on the clock. As a matter of fact, the article cites data from Seattle and Denver which shows that teenagers slept more after schools in these areas changed the number on the clock.

JaceLightning 4y ago
Of course they will right away. Then after a year or two it will be the same problem again. Changing the number on the clock to get more sleep is like taking out a loan to pay down your debt: sure you will be able to pay off your housing and car payment today, but soon that loan you took out will come due.
- NobodyNada 4y ago
  > And in Cherry Creek, a Denver-area suburb, high schoolers slept about 45 minutes longer on average, and those improvements endured even two years after the change.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Of course they will right away. > > Then after a year or two it will be the same problem again. According to the article it lasted for over two years.

bmacho 4y ago

> You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on the clock. Actually they are changing the position of the sun on the sky.