7 ms·

>In particular, there has been growing anxiety about the potential conflict of interest presented where an expert could be financially incentivised to make a fi

>In particular, there has been growing anxiety about the potential conflict of interest presented where an expert could be financially incentivised to make a finding of PA in a system that allows them to recommend their own therapy or that of colleagues. > An expert report can cost as much as £10,000, but the costs of therapeutic interventions can run into tens of thousands of pounds. > The options for a parent who believes they have been wrongly accused of alienation are limited and costly. “There is no way of getting your children back unless you admit you have alienated them,” said Waxman. “Not wanting to do the therapy is seen as resisting.” This honestly seems like a Kafka-esque nightmare driven by greed. Parent: "My ex hit me." Psychologist: "Lol, that's parental alienation, you need to give me monies, it's 'for the children'." Parent: "No, I was actually hurt by this person." Psychologist: "You're clearly in denial, courts, take the kids away until this person pays up."

annyeonghada 4y ago
After 2 years of therapy I'm convinced that psychologist are the sarcedotal class of our time. Like astrology in Imperial China, psychology serves as the science for ad hoc justification.
- flybrand 4y ago
  sac·er·do·tal /ˌsasərˈdōdl,ˌsakərˈdōdl/ Learn to pronounce adjective relating to priests or the priesthood; priestly. THEOLOGY relating to or denoting a doctrine which ascribes sacrificial functions and spiritual or supernatural powers to ordained priests.
  - annyeonghada 4y ago
    Yes, I can read the dictionary, thank you. Nevertheless, I will respond to your implied objection instead of whatever you wrote. 1. Check the definition of an analogy (this is the case where the dictionary is actually useful), maybe it will make clear why what I wrote was not meant as a perfect depiction of reality; 2. Psychology has not really a good track as a science: between replication crisis, statistical illiteracy of the researchers, ideologically motivated reasoning and outright fraud it is not clear to me that believing in Psychology is any different that believing in Theology: they are both self-consistent systems that fail to make prediction on the physical world and, while intellectually interesting and provocative, I would not like that anyone makes decisions about society and my life using concepts from these disciplines. P.S.: Actually, thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect much more about the similarity between these two seemingly different disciplines.
    - flybrand 4y ago
      > implied objection It is a cut-copy-paste definition of a rarely used word.
    - glaugh 4y ago
      I believe flybrand had to look up the word and then just wanted to save time for other folks (like me) who might also have needed to do so :)
      - flybrand 4y ago
        Yes, that was exactly it. I didn’t know the word and figured others might not.
      - robonerd 4y ago
        I interpreted the capitalization of 'THEOLOGY' as an alarmed objection to the comparison.
        wisemang 4y ago
        The “learn to pronounce” made it seem pretty clear this was just copypasta, without any effort put into editing. The caps presumably just came from the dictionary’s styling. In this case indicating a more specific meaning in a particular field (theology). Like glaugh, I appreciated the definition of a new-to-me word appearing inline :)
        flybrand 4y ago
        Yes, I was just trying to pass on something helpful based on my own ignorance.
        whiddershins 4y ago
        Understandable. Actually if you Google the word theology is in all caps in the definition so the intention of the comment is unclear.
    - deleted 4y ago
- dixie_land 4y ago
  Yup. Unlike psychiatrists, psychologists are not MDs.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- abirch 4y ago
  When you look at the history or psychology it's not great. Look no further than Hemingway
- pizza234 4y ago
  > After 2 years of therapy I'm convinced that psychologist are the sarcedotal class of our time. Like astrology in Imperial China [...] I know a few people who benefited from therapy; some very much. If you think your therapist is the equivalent of an astrologist, you should try another one; it's not unusual.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    > you should try another one; If you try enough astrologers, fortune tellers or priests, you'll probably find one with the necessary life experience and empathy to earnestly benefit you. Their stated methods differ, but I think all these people are basically in the same line of work and, insofar as any of them are capable of helping others, they're all doing basically the same thing. They ask questions and have people talk about their problems, evaluate what they hear, and offer advice based on what you've said and their professional and personal experience. And all of them should be thrown out of court rooms. Expert testimony from fortune tellers and psychologists is trash as far as I'm concerned. Rolling for a new psychologist to help yourself get better is fine and dandy, but in an adversarial courtroom environment this whole thing breaks down. When your ex-spouse brings a psychologist to court to testify against you, you don't get to "try another" until you get good results. All you can really do is hire one of your own to throw shit back in the other direction. It's farcical.
    - franga2000 4y ago
      > If you try enough astrologers, fortune tellers or priests, you'll probably find one with the necessary life experience and empathy to earnestly benefit you. You cannot be serious with this comparison. Changing therapists once or twice because different types of therapy work on different people and because you need to be comfortable around yoir therapist is in no way comparable to people dialing the TV astrologer every morning until the nonsense they literally make up on the spot happens to be what they meeded to hear by pure chance. Psychology might not be as rigorous of a science as physics or whatever, but it still follows the scientific method and therapy is primarily evidence-based. Would you also be so quick to compare a doctor trying multiple different antibiotics on a patient dying from an infection to repeatedly throwing a dart into a pharmacy and trying whatever it hits?
- dwaltrip 4y ago
  It took me 4 attempts to find a therapist who is actually helpful for me. It’s a hard job.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Interesting, I would say the same about the Diversity, Inclusion and Equity "professionals".
treis 4y ago
The problem is that it does happen. People do make up DV stories to gain leverage in divorces and children are easy to manipulate. In short, the opposite is equally Kafkaesque and there's little way of reliably determining the truth
- slowcathack 4y ago
  I'm a long time reader but I decided to bite at this comment. This isn't going to be a well received comment but here it goes. My partner was going to do the whole parental alimentation at the end of the relationship, multiple DVO and restraining orders but she was a gasped at what I did. I just packed my bags and move in and started a new family with a new partner. You have to accept that once a relationship has broken down, there are no rules or obligations that either of you need to follow. Yes, it sucks for the kids but if it really was for the kids then there would be a incentive to work-out the dichotomy. The problem is now theirs to pick up the pieces like yourself and live the rest of your life, I owe nothing to them and vis versa. I did recently bump into her new partner during the stroll with my new family which he confided that she was going to do everything in her power to destroy me financially and emotionally but didn't think I would do what I did.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    > I did recently bump into her new partner during the stroll with my new family which he confided that she was going to do everything in her power to destroy me financially and emotionally Brave man, to know that and still get involved with her..
  - em-bee 4y ago
    a gasped -> aghast?
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    > I just packed my bags and move in and started a new family with a new partner. Given how biased the current system is I think this is a reasonable default choice. If the ex is throwing crazy accusations and the courts continue to reward liars, this is probably the only way to avoid spending yourself into bankruptcy trying to stay in your kids’ lives. It’s definitely not good for the kids at all, but it’s also not good for them to have the whole family’s assets spent on attorneys, and to risk the father being accused of so much stuff that he ends up in jail during all the gamesmanship. When they’re older hopefully you’d be able to reconnect and explain what happened.
throwaway09223 4y ago
The psychologist producing the report (a custody evaluation) is not the same person or organization providing therapy. I'm not sure, but I got the impression there are ethical rules against it. > but the costs of therapeutic interventions can run into tens of thousands of pounds. More like hundreds of thousands. Courts have no limit on what they can order and they often order expensive, private therapeutic schools. In my case, I estimate about $150k per year in therapeutic expenses has been ordered by the family court presiding over my case. Mostly in the form of a few private schools. I'm in support of almost all of it, fwiw. > Parent: "No, I was actually hurt by this person." There's nothing wrong with talking about being hurt by your spouse to other adults (though- family courts may order that you can't!). The problem here is talking about it with your children in an inappropriate fashion, such that it damages their parental relationships. Doubly so when the events never occurred, or when the parent accusing is actually the parent doing the abusing.
- ectopod 4y ago
  From the article: > there has been growing anxiety about the potential conflict of interest presented where an expert could be financially incentivised to make a finding of PA in a system that allows them to recommend their own therapy or that of colleagues.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  > In my case, I estimate about $150k per year in therapeutic expenses has been ordered by the family court presiding over my case. That sounds pointless. If they want me to pay 1.5x my yearly salary just to see my kids I might as well… I don’t quite know, but something excessive.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
908B64B197 4y ago
It's just like the Salem trials "confess you are a witch, else it's proof you are a witch since a witch would deny being such".
pessimizer 4y ago
What about: Parent: "Your mother hit me. She wants to take you away from me and hurt both of us." Child: "Mommy is bad?" Parent: "She doesn't want us to be happy, she doesn't want to do what's right, she just wants to win." Psychologist: "Please stop sabotaging your child's relationship with her mother." Parent: "But she did hit me, and she's unreasonable. She won't be happy until she takes everything away from us." Psychologist: "Yes, that's another example of a thing you shouldn't say to your daughter until she is a lot older, even if it is true. True does not mean helpful."

annyeonghada 4y ago

After 2 years of therapy I'm convinced that psychologist are the sarcedotal class of our time. Like astrology in Imperial China, psychology serves as the science for ad hoc justification.

flybrand 4y ago
sac·er·do·tal /ˌsasərˈdōdl,ˌsakərˈdōdl/ Learn to pronounce adjective relating to priests or the priesthood; priestly. THEOLOGY relating to or denoting a doctrine which ascribes sacrificial functions and spiritual or supernatural powers to ordained priests.
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  Yes, I can read the dictionary, thank you. Nevertheless, I will respond to your implied objection instead of whatever you wrote. 1. Check the definition of an analogy (this is the case where the dictionary is actually useful), maybe it will make clear why what I wrote was not meant as a perfect depiction of reality; 2. Psychology has not really a good track as a science: between replication crisis, statistical illiteracy of the researchers, ideologically motivated reasoning and outright fraud it is not clear to me that believing in Psychology is any different that believing in Theology: they are both self-consistent systems that fail to make prediction on the physical world and, while intellectually interesting and provocative, I would not like that anyone makes decisions about society and my life using concepts from these disciplines. P.S.: Actually, thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect much more about the similarity between these two seemingly different disciplines.
  - flybrand 4y ago
    > implied objection It is a cut-copy-paste definition of a rarely used word.
  - glaugh 4y ago
    I believe flybrand had to look up the word and then just wanted to save time for other folks (like me) who might also have needed to do so :)
    - flybrand 4y ago
      Yes, that was exactly it. I didn’t know the word and figured others might not.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      I interpreted the capitalization of 'THEOLOGY' as an alarmed objection to the comparison.
      - wisemang 4y ago
        The “learn to pronounce” made it seem pretty clear this was just copypasta, without any effort put into editing. The caps presumably just came from the dictionary’s styling. In this case indicating a more specific meaning in a particular field (theology). Like glaugh, I appreciated the definition of a new-to-me word appearing inline :)
        flybrand 4y ago
        Yes, I was just trying to pass on something helpful based on my own ignorance.
      - whiddershins 4y ago
        Understandable. Actually if you Google the word theology is in all caps in the definition so the intention of the comment is unclear.
  - deleted 4y ago
dixie_land 4y ago
Yup. Unlike psychiatrists, psychologists are not MDs.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
abirch 4y ago
When you look at the history or psychology it's not great. Look no further than Hemingway
pizza234 4y ago
> After 2 years of therapy I'm convinced that psychologist are the sarcedotal class of our time. Like astrology in Imperial China [...] I know a few people who benefited from therapy; some very much. If you think your therapist is the equivalent of an astrologist, you should try another one; it's not unusual.
- robonerd 4y ago
  > you should try another one; If you try enough astrologers, fortune tellers or priests, you'll probably find one with the necessary life experience and empathy to earnestly benefit you. Their stated methods differ, but I think all these people are basically in the same line of work and, insofar as any of them are capable of helping others, they're all doing basically the same thing. They ask questions and have people talk about their problems, evaluate what they hear, and offer advice based on what you've said and their professional and personal experience. And all of them should be thrown out of court rooms. Expert testimony from fortune tellers and psychologists is trash as far as I'm concerned. Rolling for a new psychologist to help yourself get better is fine and dandy, but in an adversarial courtroom environment this whole thing breaks down. When your ex-spouse brings a psychologist to court to testify against you, you don't get to "try another" until you get good results. All you can really do is hire one of your own to throw shit back in the other direction. It's farcical.
  - franga2000 4y ago
    > If you try enough astrologers, fortune tellers or priests, you'll probably find one with the necessary life experience and empathy to earnestly benefit you. You cannot be serious with this comparison. Changing therapists once or twice because different types of therapy work on different people and because you need to be comfortable around yoir therapist is in no way comparable to people dialing the TV astrologer every morning until the nonsense they literally make up on the spot happens to be what they meeded to hear by pure chance. Psychology might not be as rigorous of a science as physics or whatever, but it still follows the scientific method and therapy is primarily evidence-based. Would you also be so quick to compare a doctor trying multiple different antibiotics on a patient dying from an infection to repeatedly throwing a dart into a pharmacy and trying whatever it hits?
dwaltrip 4y ago
It took me 4 attempts to find a therapist who is actually helpful for me. It’s a hard job.
inglor_cz 4y ago
Interesting, I would say the same about the Diversity, Inclusion and Equity "professionals".

treis 4y ago

The problem is that it does happen. People do make up DV stories to gain leverage in divorces and children are easy to manipulate. In short, the opposite is equally Kafkaesque and there's little way of reliably determining the truth

slowcathack 4y ago
I'm a long time reader but I decided to bite at this comment. This isn't going to be a well received comment but here it goes. My partner was going to do the whole parental alimentation at the end of the relationship, multiple DVO and restraining orders but she was a gasped at what I did. I just packed my bags and move in and started a new family with a new partner. You have to accept that once a relationship has broken down, there are no rules or obligations that either of you need to follow. Yes, it sucks for the kids but if it really was for the kids then there would be a incentive to work-out the dichotomy. The problem is now theirs to pick up the pieces like yourself and live the rest of your life, I owe nothing to them and vis versa. I did recently bump into her new partner during the stroll with my new family which he confided that she was going to do everything in her power to destroy me financially and emotionally but didn't think I would do what I did.
- robonerd 4y ago
  > I did recently bump into her new partner during the stroll with my new family which he confided that she was going to do everything in her power to destroy me financially and emotionally Brave man, to know that and still get involved with her..
- em-bee 4y ago
  a gasped -> aghast?
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  > I just packed my bags and move in and started a new family with a new partner. Given how biased the current system is I think this is a reasonable default choice. If the ex is throwing crazy accusations and the courts continue to reward liars, this is probably the only way to avoid spending yourself into bankruptcy trying to stay in your kids’ lives. It’s definitely not good for the kids at all, but it’s also not good for them to have the whole family’s assets spent on attorneys, and to risk the father being accused of so much stuff that he ends up in jail during all the gamesmanship. When they’re older hopefully you’d be able to reconnect and explain what happened.

throwaway09223 4y ago

The psychologist producing the report (a custody evaluation) is not the same person or organization providing therapy. I'm not sure, but I got the impression there are ethical rules against it. > but the costs of therapeutic interventions can run into tens of thousands of pounds. More like hundreds of thousands. Courts have no limit on what they can order and they often order expensive, private therapeutic schools. In my case, I estimate about $150k per year in therapeutic expenses has been ordered by the family court presiding over my case. Mostly in the form of a few private schools. I'm in support of almost all of it, fwiw. > Parent: "No, I was actually hurt by this person." There's nothing wrong with talking about being hurt by your spouse to other adults (though- family courts may order that you can't!). The problem here is talking about it with your children in an inappropriate fashion, such that it damages their parental relationships. Doubly so when the events never occurred, or when the parent accusing is actually the parent doing the abusing.

ectopod 4y ago
From the article: > there has been growing anxiety about the potential conflict of interest presented where an expert could be financially incentivised to make a finding of PA in a system that allows them to recommend their own therapy or that of colleagues.
Aeolun 4y ago
> In my case, I estimate about $150k per year in therapeutic expenses has been ordered by the family court presiding over my case. That sounds pointless. If they want me to pay 1.5x my yearly salary just to see my kids I might as well… I don’t quite know, but something excessive.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

908B64B197 4y ago

It's just like the Salem trials "confess you are a witch, else it's proof you are a witch since a witch would deny being such".

pessimizer 4y ago

What about: Parent: "Your mother hit me. She wants to take you away from me and hurt both of us." Child: "Mommy is bad?" Parent: "She doesn't want us to be happy, she doesn't want to do what's right, she just wants to win." Psychologist: "Please stop sabotaging your child's relationship with her mother." Parent: "But she did hit me, and she's unreasonable. She won't be happy until she takes everything away from us." Psychologist: "Yes, that's another example of a thing you shouldn't say to your daughter until she is a lot older, even if it is true. True does not mean helpful."