6 ms·

Controlling My Family’s Smart Home Is Driving Us Mad

33 points by fortran77 4y ago

h2odragon 4y ago
I love how much of "smart home" stuff is so objectively stupid on the face of it. "the ability to schedule everything!" but no one lives by such a tightly defined schedule, nor wants to. "Remote control!" which is rarely needed and often overbalanced by the unauthorized access risks. "Monitoring / data generation" which no one ever wants for any good reason: see also "unauthorized access". Anything that actually needs controls is having those removed from the consumer facing parts: What can you make your "smart TV" do vs what the manufacturer can modify? how about your "smart" phone? Anyone think the "internet enabled appliances" aren't going the same way?
- silvestrov 4y ago
  > tightly defined schedule I really miss the ability to say "turn on lights 15 minutes before sun sets", i.e. a time that is relative to the time of year (and your location).
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    Control the light with a slightly shaded photocell. The simple analog solution beats the complicated calculations; and as a bonus is weather sensitive etc.
  - bouke 4y ago
    HomeKit can actually do this.
  - gruturo 4y ago
    I know Homeassistant can be somewhat polarizing, but this is (once you're familiar with its syntax) fairly trivial. For example, a condition triggering when the sun is 10 degrees over the horizon: trigger: - platform: numeric_state entity_id: sun.sun attribute: elevation below: '10' (I hope this doesn't get mangled by the HN parser)
- isitmadeofglass 4y ago
  > "the ability to schedule everything!" but no one lives by such a tightly defined schedule We schedule the dishwasher and washer. We have solar panels so we run them I the middle of the day when we aren’t home but the sun is at its peak. We schedule the lights to turn on in the morning because we have a schedule for when we get up due to work. We schedule the radiators because we know we aren’t home midday, but still want it warm in the evening when we arrive home. None of this feels like “a tightly defined schedule” it’s just set to some reasonable assumptions when we set stuff up. And If myself or my SO works from home it’s just two taps in the app to keep the hearing going, if we have a weekday off and want to sleep in, it’s two taps as well. None of that is overly complicated and I’d compare it to what you used to need to do with your “dump alarmclock” or manually controlled “dumb radiator”, now it’s just an app.
  - antiquark 4y ago
    > We schedule the dishwasher An old dishwasher repairman once told me you shouldn't run the dishwasher when you're not home, because sometimes the valve sticks open and floods the kitchen (which he had seen).
    - doubled112 4y ago
      I try not to leave mine unattended either. My dishwasher will unload water onto the floor if you put items in the wrong place. A friend's dishwasher will unload enough water to fill a 24" planter on certain cycles, under conditions he's not figured out yet. They're terrible. I'm not asking for a lot. Clean dishes, water stays in. At least they have WiFi now /s. Priorities!
    - nixgeek 4y ago
      Having seen the effects of floods from appliances and plumbing, deploying sensors for water leaks is very high on my list of recommended “smarts” for home owners. Sinks. Toilets. Dishwashers. Washing machines. Being aware of leaks and catching them early can save >$10000 (or a significant insurance claim). Just being home isn’t necessarily enough - you’re working from an office upstairs, are you going to notice a leak? Or will it leak for 3 hours until you notice, at which point it’s equivalent to running it when you’re out of the home?
- bdcravens 4y ago
  The last 6 months or so I've been fighting our home's Nest. It'll randomly jack up the temperature according to whatever bizarre learning algorithm it supposedly has.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    You know you can just turn the learning algorithm off? I pretty much use it as an easy to program dumb thermostat, with the added nice ability to change the temperature remotely (good when coming home from holiday and you want the house warm) or via voice assistant (great if you're in bed or whatever).
    - bdcravens 4y ago
      I've looked throughout their interface, and I can't seem to find that option. What you describe is exactly what I want. I'll give it another look.
      - IshKebab 4y ago
        In the app go to settings, then select your thermostats at the bottom, then turn Auto-Schedule off (and maybe some of the other smart options).
- silisili 4y ago
  Just bought a Samsung appliance set...and the range apparently works with smartthings. Wasn't a deciding factor, but just decided to play with it because I thought there may be some value in being able to make sure the oven is off from afar. So, the only thing you can actually do is preheat the oven, and flick the oven light off and on. Can't turn it off if it's already on, can't turn burners off if they're on. I have zero idea why you'd ever want to control the light from afar. So essentially, it's 'smart abilities' are mind bogglingly useless. Oh well.
WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
Home automation is mainly broken. I and many more people have gone thru the same problems outlined in the article. It needs a strong backing by one supplier that can unite the "standards." I'm not a fan of Apple but they would change home automation for the better if they focused on it. And they would make a pretty good buck for their trouble.
- wkearney99 4y ago
  Nonsense. You'd still end up with subscriptions and inability to integrate anything beyond what the deign to allow. Kinda like their efforts thus far.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Michelangelo11 4y ago
> We need innovative solutions to problems like how to keep your light switches turned on. Wow. What a sentence.
quickthrowman 4y ago
I gave up after reading the first paragraph, the problem with the light switches is easily solvable. Remove the switch, use a wire nut to splice the hots together, cover the empty switch box with a blank plate. No more light switches, no more problems with smart bulbs being reset. Smart bulbs are stupid anyways, either get occupancy sensors or keep your toggle switches/dimmers, why do you want to control your lighting from a phone app??? Novelty does not equal utility.
- satyrnein 4y ago
  I don't use smart bulbs anymore, but I like my smart switches. "Hey Google, Watch TV" and the correct lights dim.
- neither_color 4y ago
  White bulbs with adjustable "temperature" e.g 2500K, 3000K, 5000K. I can never go back to regular dimmable bulbs.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  Even better: MvToe Magnetic Switch and Outlet Cover Light Switch Guards for Flat Modern Switches Toggle Switches, for Sabbath, Home and Office (4 Pack) https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG
isitmadeofglass 4y ago
> Take smart lighting, for example. For it to work, you have to remind everyone in your family to leave the old switches alone. Or you know, actually solve the problem at the source. If your dedicated you can remove the switches, otherwise a simple strip of tape does wonders. Trying to solve anything by “telling everyone to avoid doing something that seems obvious m” is a disastrous pattern not just in the smart home but everywhere.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  Yeah, you're supposed to cover the switches with the plates, or the sliders
- satyrnein 4y ago
  I swapped in Lutron Caseta switches, which have been great. Now I have better switches (with dimming built in), and completely separately the switches can take remote commands.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  These work well MvToe Magnetic Switch and Outlet Cover Light Switch Guards for Flat Modern Switches Toggle Switches, for Sabbath, Home and Office (4 Pack) https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG
yieldcrv 4y ago
Too many apps? I just avoid buying IOT devices that don't work with my preferred system. Mine happens to be Homekit. Apple centric. I currently don't have a star projector because none of them connected to homekit last I looked.
locallost 4y ago
Keeping things simple and stupid is a great way to live.
alkonaut 4y ago
Just follow some very simple rules of smart homes and it will be a better journey. I could make an infinitely long list. 1) things must fail to being dumb, not non-functioning. Dumb/old behavior must exist in parallel, Just consider selling the home or having an AirBnB guest. Would you need to write any notes with instructions for them to use the home? Then you probably failed. Typical example is the “don’t touch this switch, the bulb is smart” idiocy. Things must only be made smarter, never dumber or more cumbersome. I repeat: smart bulbs must never ever be connected to traditional switches. Just use smart switches behind your regular switches. 2) This one follows from 1: you will be required to know how to do basic electrical work safely, such as replacing switches and dimmers. You will not build anything that isn’t frustrating without knowing (or spending money on) electrical work. Manufacturers will try to sell you gadgets that make things smart without needing an electrician but ignore those. 3) Unfortunately you’ll need to know a bit about networking and computers. Don’t embark on it if you aren’t comfortable tinkering with computers. You’ll spend more time tweaking smart home things than you’ll ever save through the smarts. Remember: smart home tech is still on the level where it’s a hobby. It costs time. 4) Get things that support local-only operation. At least things that fall back to local only (e.g using a web service for extrnal access but still working local use even if the service is down). 5) Low power wireless mesh networks will fail to connect, drop nodes. Plan for it. 6) Don’t get anything that requires a subscription to function. 7) Don’t buy things from companies whose business is ads and dealing in PII, rather than building good gadgets. You know which those are. 8) Most things have no use being “smart”. Fridges, stoves, ovens etc. I’d avoid all A/V equipment too. Only connect smart things that actually make things easier with very simple means. Being able to switch of all lights in the house when you leave with a double click on the switch by the door is really convenient and saves you a lot of work (or electricity). “Dimming the lights and starting a movie” might be cool but is gimmicky and gets old quickly.
- fragmede 4y ago
  > Most things have no use being “smart”. Me thinks you're not the target market then. The oven is the first thing I'd want to smart-ify. Being able to check that the oven is off, remotely, is worth the world (or at least, my house not burning down). Normal people don't understand the security implications or about the dependence on a cloud service, as long as it works enough of the time.
ajolly 4y ago
Home Assistant seems to work with absolutely everything. Ultra powerful tool.
element919 4y ago
Had a buddy with a 3million $ house and something called Savant to run the automation. He was CONSTANTLY battling a system that would either refuse to respond to commands or get creative in how it implemented them. I lost count of the number of times he had to “reboot the house” via the main electrical breaker. More proof that the systems are still very half baked.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ALittleLight 4y ago
For lights my ideal would be that there are no switches or controls and instead the lights turn on when someone enters a room and off when no one is there. Hues and brightness should be customizable per person along with reasonable defaults for multiple people in the room. I'm imagining person recognition via security camera feeds. Again, ideally, all done locally.
hasbot 4y ago
> I see encouraging signs in gadgets like Flic’s programmable smart buttons So a solution is to stick expensive single-purpose buttons everywhere? That feels like a step backwards. Might expectations be too high? Ultimately everything has to be controllable by a human. Maybe expectations would be better set if this were called a "Connected Home."
syntaxing 4y ago
Home assistant + zigbee/zwave stick has been amazing. Everything runs on its own VLAN so it’s super secure.
ruskyhacker 4y ago
Unfortunately only us technical folks have it good. I solved this problem by using three methods - homeassistant is number one. The second, is only integrating / purchasing devices that I can either manually flash open source software on (think tasmota for instance,) or the solution's API has been re'd. The third thing is Shelly. Shelly products are the shit. I'm not a shill either; I've purchased every single Shelly I own (~40.) Shelly makes automating lights and switches amazing because you don't replace the switch, they're literally wife proof. I've also flashed all my Shelly devices to communicate to homeassistant directly, however they have native non cloud integration capabilities. Again, this doesn't solve the main problem of fragmentation - home assistant addresses this by being a black box, but it's not for normies, I don't know how it ever could be. It has gotten super slick though. The other issue is stuff like Shelly requires a technical brain - the way they're installed you'd be playing with mains current, and no Suzie home maker should be doing that...
- spacexsucks 4y ago
  Can you provide a link to Shelly? Thank you.
  - nixgeek 4y ago
    I found it by Google: “Shelly switches”. https://shelly.cloud/ https://shelly.cloud/
Havoc 4y ago
> Google Assistant, Alexa, or Siri Doesn’t sound like there is much of a coherent strategy at work here.

33 points by fortran77 4y ago

I love how much of "smart home" stuff is so objectively stupid on the face of it. "the ability to schedule everything!" but no one lives by such a tightly defined schedule, nor wants to. "Remote control!" which is rarely needed and often overbalanced by the unauthorized access risks. "Monitoring / data generation" which no one ever wants for any good reason: see also "unauthorized access". Anything that actually needs controls is having those removed from the consumer facing parts: What can you make your "smart TV" do vs what the manufacturer can modify? how about your "smart" phone? Anyone think the "internet enabled appliances" aren't going the same way?

silvestrov 4y ago
> tightly defined schedule I really miss the ability to say "turn on lights 15 minutes before sun sets", i.e. a time that is relative to the time of year (and your location).
- h2odragon 4y ago
  Control the light with a slightly shaded photocell. The simple analog solution beats the complicated calculations; and as a bonus is weather sensitive etc.
- bouke 4y ago
  HomeKit can actually do this.
- gruturo 4y ago
  I know Homeassistant can be somewhat polarizing, but this is (once you're familiar with its syntax) fairly trivial. For example, a condition triggering when the sun is 10 degrees over the horizon: trigger: - platform: numeric_state entity_id: sun.sun attribute: elevation below: '10' (I hope this doesn't get mangled by the HN parser)
isitmadeofglass 4y ago
> "the ability to schedule everything!" but no one lives by such a tightly defined schedule We schedule the dishwasher and washer. We have solar panels so we run them I the middle of the day when we aren’t home but the sun is at its peak. We schedule the lights to turn on in the morning because we have a schedule for when we get up due to work. We schedule the radiators because we know we aren’t home midday, but still want it warm in the evening when we arrive home. None of this feels like “a tightly defined schedule” it’s just set to some reasonable assumptions when we set stuff up. And If myself or my SO works from home it’s just two taps in the app to keep the hearing going, if we have a weekday off and want to sleep in, it’s two taps as well. None of that is overly complicated and I’d compare it to what you used to need to do with your “dump alarmclock” or manually controlled “dumb radiator”, now it’s just an app.
- antiquark 4y ago
  > We schedule the dishwasher An old dishwasher repairman once told me you shouldn't run the dishwasher when you're not home, because sometimes the valve sticks open and floods the kitchen (which he had seen).
  - doubled112 4y ago
    I try not to leave mine unattended either. My dishwasher will unload water onto the floor if you put items in the wrong place. A friend's dishwasher will unload enough water to fill a 24" planter on certain cycles, under conditions he's not figured out yet. They're terrible. I'm not asking for a lot. Clean dishes, water stays in. At least they have WiFi now /s. Priorities!
  - nixgeek 4y ago
    Having seen the effects of floods from appliances and plumbing, deploying sensors for water leaks is very high on my list of recommended “smarts” for home owners. Sinks. Toilets. Dishwashers. Washing machines. Being aware of leaks and catching them early can save >$10000 (or a significant insurance claim). Just being home isn’t necessarily enough - you’re working from an office upstairs, are you going to notice a leak? Or will it leak for 3 hours until you notice, at which point it’s equivalent to running it when you’re out of the home?
bdcravens 4y ago
The last 6 months or so I've been fighting our home's Nest. It'll randomly jack up the temperature according to whatever bizarre learning algorithm it supposedly has.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  You know you can just turn the learning algorithm off? I pretty much use it as an easy to program dumb thermostat, with the added nice ability to change the temperature remotely (good when coming home from holiday and you want the house warm) or via voice assistant (great if you're in bed or whatever).
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    I've looked throughout their interface, and I can't seem to find that option. What you describe is exactly what I want. I'll give it another look.
    - IshKebab 4y ago
      In the app go to settings, then select your thermostats at the bottom, then turn Auto-Schedule off (and maybe some of the other smart options).
silisili 4y ago
Just bought a Samsung appliance set...and the range apparently works with smartthings. Wasn't a deciding factor, but just decided to play with it because I thought there may be some value in being able to make sure the oven is off from afar. So, the only thing you can actually do is preheat the oven, and flick the oven light off and on. Can't turn it off if it's already on, can't turn burners off if they're on. I have zero idea why you'd ever want to control the light from afar. So essentially, it's 'smart abilities' are mind bogglingly useless. Oh well.

WheelsAtLarge 4y ago

Home automation is mainly broken. I and many more people have gone thru the same problems outlined in the article. It needs a strong backing by one supplier that can unite the "standards." I'm not a fan of Apple but they would change home automation for the better if they focused on it. And they would make a pretty good buck for their trouble.

wkearney99 4y ago
Nonsense. You'd still end up with subscriptions and inability to integrate anything beyond what the deign to allow. Kinda like their efforts thus far.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Michelangelo11 4y ago

> We need innovative solutions to problems like how to keep your light switches turned on. Wow. What a sentence.

quickthrowman 4y ago

I gave up after reading the first paragraph, the problem with the light switches is easily solvable. Remove the switch, use a wire nut to splice the hots together, cover the empty switch box with a blank plate. No more light switches, no more problems with smart bulbs being reset. Smart bulbs are stupid anyways, either get occupancy sensors or keep your toggle switches/dimmers, why do you want to control your lighting from a phone app??? Novelty does not equal utility.

satyrnein 4y ago
I don't use smart bulbs anymore, but I like my smart switches. "Hey Google, Watch TV" and the correct lights dim.
neither_color 4y ago
White bulbs with adjustable "temperature" e.g 2500K, 3000K, 5000K. I can never go back to regular dimmable bulbs.
kkielhofner 4y ago
Even better: MvToe Magnetic Switch and Outlet Cover Light Switch Guards for Flat Modern Switches Toggle Switches, for Sabbath, Home and Office (4 Pack) https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG

isitmadeofglass 4y ago

> Take smart lighting, for example. For it to work, you have to remind everyone in your family to leave the old switches alone. Or you know, actually solve the problem at the source. If your dedicated you can remove the switches, otherwise a simple strip of tape does wonders. Trying to solve anything by “telling everyone to avoid doing something that seems obvious m” is a disastrous pattern not just in the smart home but everywhere.

yieldcrv 4y ago
Yeah, you're supposed to cover the switches with the plates, or the sliders
satyrnein 4y ago
I swapped in Lutron Caseta switches, which have been great. Now I have better switches (with dimming built in), and completely separately the switches can take remote commands.
kkielhofner 4y ago
These work well MvToe Magnetic Switch and Outlet Cover Light Switch Guards for Flat Modern Switches Toggle Switches, for Sabbath, Home and Office (4 Pack) https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG https://a.co/d/bGLX7sG

yieldcrv 4y ago

Too many apps? I just avoid buying IOT devices that don't work with my preferred system. Mine happens to be Homekit. Apple centric. I currently don't have a star projector because none of them connected to homekit last I looked.

locallost 4y ago

Keeping things simple and stupid is a great way to live.

alkonaut 4y ago

Just follow some very simple rules of smart homes and it will be a better journey. I could make an infinitely long list. 1) things must fail to being dumb, not non-functioning. Dumb/old behavior must exist in parallel, Just consider selling the home or having an AirBnB guest. Would you need to write any notes with instructions for them to use the home? Then you probably failed. Typical example is the “don’t touch this switch, the bulb is smart” idiocy. Things must only be made smarter, never dumber or more cumbersome. I repeat: smart bulbs must never ever be connected to traditional switches. Just use smart switches behind your regular switches. 2) This one follows from 1: you will be required to know how to do basic electrical work safely, such as replacing switches and dimmers. You will not build anything that isn’t frustrating without knowing (or spending money on) electrical work. Manufacturers will try to sell you gadgets that make things smart without needing an electrician but ignore those. 3) Unfortunately you’ll need to know a bit about networking and computers. Don’t embark on it if you aren’t comfortable tinkering with computers. You’ll spend more time tweaking smart home things than you’ll ever save through the smarts. Remember: smart home tech is still on the level where it’s a hobby. It costs time. 4) Get things that support local-only operation. At least things that fall back to local only (e.g using a web service for extrnal access but still working local use even if the service is down). 5) Low power wireless mesh networks will fail to connect, drop nodes. Plan for it. 6) Don’t get anything that requires a subscription to function. 7) Don’t buy things from companies whose business is ads and dealing in PII, rather than building good gadgets. You know which those are. 8) Most things have no use being “smart”. Fridges, stoves, ovens etc. I’d avoid all A/V equipment too. Only connect smart things that actually make things easier with very simple means. Being able to switch of all lights in the house when you leave with a double click on the switch by the door is really convenient and saves you a lot of work (or electricity). “Dimming the lights and starting a movie” might be cool but is gimmicky and gets old quickly.

fragmede 4y ago
> Most things have no use being “smart”. Me thinks you're not the target market then. The oven is the first thing I'd want to smart-ify. Being able to check that the oven is off, remotely, is worth the world (or at least, my house not burning down). Normal people don't understand the security implications or about the dependence on a cloud service, as long as it works enough of the time.

ajolly 4y ago

Home Assistant seems to work with absolutely everything. Ultra powerful tool.

element919 4y ago

Had a buddy with a 3million $ house and something called Savant to run the automation. He was CONSTANTLY battling a system that would either refuse to respond to commands or get creative in how it implemented them. I lost count of the number of times he had to “reboot the house” via the main electrical breaker. More proof that the systems are still very half baked.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ALittleLight 4y ago

For lights my ideal would be that there are no switches or controls and instead the lights turn on when someone enters a room and off when no one is there. Hues and brightness should be customizable per person along with reasonable defaults for multiple people in the room. I'm imagining person recognition via security camera feeds. Again, ideally, all done locally.

hasbot 4y ago

> I see encouraging signs in gadgets like Flic’s programmable smart buttons So a solution is to stick expensive single-purpose buttons everywhere? That feels like a step backwards. Might expectations be too high? Ultimately everything has to be controllable by a human. Maybe expectations would be better set if this were called a "Connected Home."

syntaxing 4y ago

Home assistant + zigbee/zwave stick has been amazing. Everything runs on its own VLAN so it’s super secure.

ruskyhacker 4y ago

Unfortunately only us technical folks have it good. I solved this problem by using three methods - homeassistant is number one. The second, is only integrating / purchasing devices that I can either manually flash open source software on (think tasmota for instance,) or the solution's API has been re'd. The third thing is Shelly. Shelly products are the shit. I'm not a shill either; I've purchased every single Shelly I own (~40.) Shelly makes automating lights and switches amazing because you don't replace the switch, they're literally wife proof. I've also flashed all my Shelly devices to communicate to homeassistant directly, however they have native non cloud integration capabilities. Again, this doesn't solve the main problem of fragmentation - home assistant addresses this by being a black box, but it's not for normies, I don't know how it ever could be. It has gotten super slick though. The other issue is stuff like Shelly requires a technical brain - the way they're installed you'd be playing with mains current, and no Suzie home maker should be doing that...

spacexsucks 4y ago
Can you provide a link to Shelly? Thank you.
- nixgeek 4y ago
  I found it by Google: “Shelly switches”. https://shelly.cloud/ https://shelly.cloud/

Havoc 4y ago

> Google Assistant, Alexa, or Siri Doesn’t sound like there is much of a coherent strategy at work here.