12 ms·

Why championship chess sets are so expensive

24 points by yarapavan 4y ago

aldebran 4y ago
Not only are these expensive, they’re hard to find. A few years ago I asked my (Indian) in laws to gift me a nice wooden chess set in lieu of the usual gifs they get for me from India. I asked for it thinking it’ll be easy for them to get and it’ll be something I’ll cherish and find use for instead of dealing with clothing sizes or designs I might like. It was absolutely not like that. The quality of the pieces is so drastically different and now I know why. Even now after they spent 2x-4x more than a good quality plastic set the bishop isn’t that much taller than the pawns. The rook is as tall as the pawns. And that was after they spent a lot of time finding a decent set that had a good feel and ensuring the due isn’t chipping off.
- blip54321 4y ago
  Historically, India made premium products for export markets. Many weren't sold locally.
- tzs 4y ago
  Unless the in laws were serious chess players, I'd be afraid to ask for a chess set as a gift. The chances would be too high that they would get some theme or novelty set that might be great as a decorative object but is not so good for playing, especially if you want to play with other people. So if you are into say WW2 history, you might end up with something like this [1]. Religious? Maybe you get this [2]. Once mentioned you read an interesting article about Frank Lloyd Wright? They might remember and get you this [3]. Like marijuana? They might think this is the perfect set for you [4]. What I'd want is a set that if I took it to tournament I could choose to use it when I'm playing Black and White would have to accept it. (Note for non-US players. Typical tournaments in the US do not provide equipment. The players are supposed to bring sets and clocks. If both players offer equipment for a game, Black gets to choose which is used unless Black's choice is not considered standard [5] and White's is in which case White's is used). [1] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2S-009.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2S-009.html [2] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Z-W02.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Z-W02.html [3] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-030.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-030.html [4] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-420.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-420.html [5] Standard is pieces of plastic or wood or something with a similar appearance. King height 8.65 to 11.54 cm. The cross or other finial no more than 20% of the King height. King base 40-50% of King height. Other pieces proportionate in height and form. All pieces well balanced for stability and comfortable moving. Staunton design, with minor variations allowed. Color should be the colors of naturally light and dark wood or approximations of those, or simply black and white. Board must be opaque and made from something smooth that allows easy movement of pieces. Colors should offer high contrast between the dark and light squares. Red and black checkerboards are explicitly called out in the rules as nonstandard. Square sides should be approximately 5 to 6.4 cm. Divide the diameter of the King's base by 0.78 to get the ideal square size. The square should not be smaller than that, but it is OK if it is up to 4 mm larger.
roelschroeven 4y ago
So they're expensive (and rare) because apparently the certification is pretty strict and it takes a lot of skilled manual labor to comply with the certification. But why is the certification so strict? Why isn't the certification somewhat looser, so that official sets can be less expensive? It's not like the exact dimensions, weights, shapes or materials influence the game play like e.g. a football ball does, or a formula racing car.
- phoe-krk 4y ago
  > But why is the certification so strict? Why isn't the certification somewhat looser, so that official sets can be less expensive? It's not like the exact dimensions, weights, shapes or materials influence the game play like e.g. a football ball does, or a formula racing car. Isn't it a general lack of demand? Machine-produced chess sets are commonplace and much cheaper to make en masse. A handmade chess like this is also also a luxury item at this point, and luxury items may have arbitrary price tags.
  - ivanbakel 4y ago
    That has nothing to do with certification for official use.
    - phoe-krk 4y ago
      OK - isn't it a general lack of demand for the certifications to be changed, then? If the certification process looks like this now, then what is the force that would bring it out of its current inertia?
- treeman79 4y ago
  Have played on cheap “fancy” sets. Ones where both sides keep confusing themselves on who owns a piece. Or what it is. Nothing like losing or wining because you tried to checkmate using your opponents pawn as a bishop…
  - klez 4y ago
criddell 4y ago
Expensive? They are handmade in a factory that only makes 250 sets / year. That's only $125k of revenue per year. Doesn't seem like a lot.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > They are handmade in a factory that only makes 250 sets / year. Yes… but why are they made this way?
  - usrusr 4y ago
    How many championships are there? The video mentions another certification (?) class ("tournament") that's presumably no less official than the "championship" one, just less exclusive. And there you have the answer: exclusivity. Keeping an artificially scarce class of artisanal playpieces around to fill the upper market niche that is still focused on clean line functionality and standards seems like a very clever way to keep the higher priced market segment from losing itself even more than it already does in fancy novelty designs. Strategies that good rarely get invented, usually they are chance discoveries. They should absolutely keep this up, it's good for the game.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > And there you have the answer: exclusivity. Fundamental answer then - they don’t need to be this expensive.
      - usrusr 4y ago
        Are they that expensive though? Plenty of sports have more expensive equipment and often that's not even handmade, much less durable and associated with a strong in-group/out-group mechanism that I don't really see in chess. If you made it to the world championships never having touched anything but plastic pieces, would they think less of you? I suspect quite the opposite..
  - grumple 4y ago
wodenokoto 4y ago
The Youtube version of this video was released a while ago. The video fails to answer the more meaningful version of the "why": The "why does it have to". There is no limit to how expensive you can make a chess set (Fill it with diamonds, pay the Queen to piss on it, use wood smoked on burned dollar bills). But why does a championship chess set need to be produced expensively? That was the question I was hoping for, when I watched this video a long time ago, and now I dislike all the videos from this series when the appear on my recommendation feed on YT. You can always make an expensive version of something. It is interesting to know _why_ something has to be expensive.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Yes it’s bizarre the journalist didn’t think to ask ‘but why?’
  - toolz 4y ago
    I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect answering that question would take longer and all they needed was enough material to justify the title, which was the real value proposition all along, as the title was enough to get clicks.
- Zak 4y ago
  It also doesn't need over seven minutes to explain why they cost $500. I'll do it in seven words: they are handmade with high quality standards.
  - MushyRoom 4y ago
    I don't know who this 7min square video is directed at - hosted on twitter the worst video platform on the internet (scroll stop video)
- ianbicking 4y ago
  Some of it may simply be volume. They make 250 of these sets a year, @$500 that's a gross of just $125k. The actual revenue for the factory must be much lower. It's hard to imagine maintaining a reliable supply at a lower cost.
bambax 4y ago
Why would you need "certified" pieces if you're not running a competition? You can buy very high quality weighted wooden sets for around $100. But ebony ones start at $1500...
leoff 4y ago
At first I thought this was a parody like the Artisanal Firewood video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI). It seems like a lot of this process could and should be automated to improve consistency and quality.
- saint-loup 4y ago
  Thanks for this video. As a fan of "craftsmanship porn" videos, I feel seen. :)
- usrusr 4y ago
  Feels really weird watching that with my mind turning his voice into that of Carrie Brownstein.
tomashubelbauer 4y ago
If anyone is interested, here's Hikaru Nakamura, a super GM reacting to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IowQeiC4V8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IowQeiC4V8I. The video is long but I think the main takeaway is already clear from the first 13 seconds. :)
- edelans 4y ago
  thanks a lot for posting this ! I recommend the first 13s as well !
benj111 4y ago
Why do you even need certified sets, much less to such exacting standards? It's not like it's going to give a player an unfair advantage.
Saint_Genet 4y ago
Noticed 30 seconds in that everyone in the video still have all their fingers. Feel like this wouldn't be the case if they were cheaper.
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
Everyone is asking "why does it need to be so expensive"? I think it's basically the same reason why anything that doesn't have to be expensive, is: 1) To make money 2) To elevate status For 1), buying world championship chess sets is not something done en-masse. You buy one because you really like chess and have disposable income, otherwise there is literally no reason not to buy a normal cheap one. For 2), you don't want people to say the chess championship gives you shitty chess pieces that break, no? 95% of people won't care, but those that will will. And 500 dollars is not very much for an event this size (although chess championships haven't been the biggest event..) The fact that they made a video showing off "look how expensive and nicely done our chess sets are" basically proves it's a status thing.
Karliss 4y ago
They way I look at it they are more like FIFA World Cup balls each year slightly different and for the last 50 years made by Adidas. Except there it's much clearer that they have little meaning outside the specific tournament games and value in sales outside it is clearly seen as collection item not as tool for performing the sport. There is no impression that those are only balls which could be used for proper football competition. From what I understood by reading "Standards of Chess Equipment, venue for FIDE Tournaments" Even official FIDE registered games could happen with other chess sets as long as they are approved by Chief Organiser and the Chief Arbiter of the tournament and comply with much weaker and vaguely defined requirements listed in that document. Although I wouldn't be surprised if many organizers due to prestige and to avoid any unnecessary complaints from players would still try to buy the official sets.
arnaudsm 4y ago
It's common to hear "handmade is higher quality", but is it always true? Automation with solid QA can be more reliable than humans, but a fraction of the cost. Mass production has a bad rap, but it's an art too, and can be done correctly.
- loloquwowndueo 4y ago
  Interestingly, higher quality was one of the selling points of mass-produced vs. hand-made items back in the day. “Machines are more consistent”. The “hand-made is better” myth sounds invented to justify higher prices for hand-crafted stuff and help keep some workers in business in the age of machines.
- solatic 4y ago
  You're thinking of mass producers like Apple, which hit both high volume and high price points. Mass producers like Apple have enough revenue to pay for the higher quality standards within mass production. Championship chess sets, even if you could somehow produce them for $5/set, are not going to have the sales volume to justify the cost of the automation + solid QA.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  >Automation with solid QA can be more reliable than humans, but a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure where the line is drawn for 'handmade', but of course the best version of 'handmade' has the humans doing the complex parts to connect all the tools together. It's like QA on the front end.
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  There's also the concept that the artifacts (imperfections) of being hand-made add value; much in the same way that people prefer vinyl because of it's imperfections. Having a master crafted _item_ vs a machine made one can be considered to add "quality/value", even if it's not as technically perfect.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like an incredibly easy problem for CNC, possibly with some hand detailing - or perhaps not. I'm finding it hard to believe that machines that can produce something like this can't handle some fairly simple standardised chess shapes. https://preview.redd.it/xbk6s64gu6181.jpg?width=794&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e734100ebd0ff19e70eea1d8d673b2336ebabed5 https://preview.redd.it/xbk6s64gu6181.jpg?width=794&format=p...

24 points by yarapavan 4y ago

Not only are these expensive, they’re hard to find. A few years ago I asked my (Indian) in laws to gift me a nice wooden chess set in lieu of the usual gifs they get for me from India. I asked for it thinking it’ll be easy for them to get and it’ll be something I’ll cherish and find use for instead of dealing with clothing sizes or designs I might like. It was absolutely not like that. The quality of the pieces is so drastically different and now I know why. Even now after they spent 2x-4x more than a good quality plastic set the bishop isn’t that much taller than the pawns. The rook is as tall as the pawns. And that was after they spent a lot of time finding a decent set that had a good feel and ensuring the due isn’t chipping off.

blip54321 4y ago
Historically, India made premium products for export markets. Many weren't sold locally.
tzs 4y ago
Unless the in laws were serious chess players, I'd be afraid to ask for a chess set as a gift. The chances would be too high that they would get some theme or novelty set that might be great as a decorative object but is not so good for playing, especially if you want to play with other people. So if you are into say WW2 history, you might end up with something like this [1]. Religious? Maybe you get this [2]. Once mentioned you read an interesting article about Frank Lloyd Wright? They might remember and get you this [3]. Like marijuana? They might think this is the perfect set for you [4]. What I'd want is a set that if I took it to tournament I could choose to use it when I'm playing Black and White would have to accept it. (Note for non-US players. Typical tournaments in the US do not provide equipment. The players are supposed to bring sets and clocks. If both players offer equipment for a game, Black gets to choose which is used unless Black's choice is not considered standard [5] and White's is in which case White's is used). [1] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2S-009.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2S-009.html [2] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Z-W02.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Z-W02.html [3] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-030.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-030.html [4] https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-420.html https://www.chessusa.com/product/2Y-420.html [5] Standard is pieces of plastic or wood or something with a similar appearance. King height 8.65 to 11.54 cm. The cross or other finial no more than 20% of the King height. King base 40-50% of King height. Other pieces proportionate in height and form. All pieces well balanced for stability and comfortable moving. Staunton design, with minor variations allowed. Color should be the colors of naturally light and dark wood or approximations of those, or simply black and white. Board must be opaque and made from something smooth that allows easy movement of pieces. Colors should offer high contrast between the dark and light squares. Red and black checkerboards are explicitly called out in the rules as nonstandard. Square sides should be approximately 5 to 6.4 cm. Divide the diameter of the King's base by 0.78 to get the ideal square size. The square should not be smaller than that, but it is OK if it is up to 4 mm larger.

roelschroeven 4y ago

So they're expensive (and rare) because apparently the certification is pretty strict and it takes a lot of skilled manual labor to comply with the certification. But why is the certification so strict? Why isn't the certification somewhat looser, so that official sets can be less expensive? It's not like the exact dimensions, weights, shapes or materials influence the game play like e.g. a football ball does, or a formula racing car.

phoe-krk 4y ago
> But why is the certification so strict? Why isn't the certification somewhat looser, so that official sets can be less expensive? It's not like the exact dimensions, weights, shapes or materials influence the game play like e.g. a football ball does, or a formula racing car. Isn't it a general lack of demand? Machine-produced chess sets are commonplace and much cheaper to make en masse. A handmade chess like this is also also a luxury item at this point, and luxury items may have arbitrary price tags.
- ivanbakel 4y ago
  That has nothing to do with certification for official use.
  - phoe-krk 4y ago
    OK - isn't it a general lack of demand for the certifications to be changed, then? If the certification process looks like this now, then what is the force that would bring it out of its current inertia?
treeman79 4y ago
Have played on cheap “fancy” sets. Ones where both sides keep confusing themselves on who owns a piece. Or what it is. Nothing like losing or wining because you tried to checkmate using your opponents pawn as a bishop…
- klez 4y ago

criddell 4y ago

Expensive? They are handmade in a factory that only makes 250 sets / year. That's only $125k of revenue per year. Doesn't seem like a lot.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> They are handmade in a factory that only makes 250 sets / year. Yes… but why are they made this way?
- usrusr 4y ago
  How many championships are there? The video mentions another certification (?) class ("tournament") that's presumably no less official than the "championship" one, just less exclusive. And there you have the answer: exclusivity. Keeping an artificially scarce class of artisanal playpieces around to fill the upper market niche that is still focused on clean line functionality and standards seems like a very clever way to keep the higher priced market segment from losing itself even more than it already does in fancy novelty designs. Strategies that good rarely get invented, usually they are chance discoveries. They should absolutely keep this up, it's good for the game.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > And there you have the answer: exclusivity. Fundamental answer then - they don’t need to be this expensive.
    - usrusr 4y ago
      Are they that expensive though? Plenty of sports have more expensive equipment and often that's not even handmade, much less durable and associated with a strong in-group/out-group mechanism that I don't really see in chess. If you made it to the world championships never having touched anything but plastic pieces, would they think less of you? I suspect quite the opposite..
- grumple 4y ago

wodenokoto 4y ago

The Youtube version of this video was released a while ago. The video fails to answer the more meaningful version of the "why": The "why does it have to". There is no limit to how expensive you can make a chess set (Fill it with diamonds, pay the Queen to piss on it, use wood smoked on burned dollar bills). But why does a championship chess set need to be produced expensively? That was the question I was hoping for, when I watched this video a long time ago, and now I dislike all the videos from this series when the appear on my recommendation feed on YT. You can always make an expensive version of something. It is interesting to know _why_ something has to be expensive.

chrisseaton 4y ago
Yes it’s bizarre the journalist didn’t think to ask ‘but why?’
- toolz 4y ago
  I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect answering that question would take longer and all they needed was enough material to justify the title, which was the real value proposition all along, as the title was enough to get clicks.
Zak 4y ago
It also doesn't need over seven minutes to explain why they cost $500. I'll do it in seven words: they are handmade with high quality standards.
- MushyRoom 4y ago
  I don't know who this 7min square video is directed at - hosted on twitter the worst video platform on the internet (scroll stop video)
ianbicking 4y ago
Some of it may simply be volume. They make 250 of these sets a year, @$500 that's a gross of just $125k. The actual revenue for the factory must be much lower. It's hard to imagine maintaining a reliable supply at a lower cost.

bambax 4y ago

Why would you need "certified" pieces if you're not running a competition? You can buy very high quality weighted wooden sets for around $100. But ebony ones start at $1500...

leoff 4y ago

At first I thought this was a parody like the Artisanal Firewood video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI). It seems like a lot of this process could and should be automated to improve consistency and quality.

saint-loup 4y ago
Thanks for this video. As a fan of "craftsmanship porn" videos, I feel seen. :)
usrusr 4y ago
Feels really weird watching that with my mind turning his voice into that of Carrie Brownstein.

tomashubelbauer 4y ago

If anyone is interested, here's Hikaru Nakamura, a super GM reacting to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IowQeiC4V8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IowQeiC4V8I. The video is long but I think the main takeaway is already clear from the first 13 seconds. :)

edelans 4y ago
thanks a lot for posting this ! I recommend the first 13s as well !

benj111 4y ago

Why do you even need certified sets, much less to such exacting standards? It's not like it's going to give a player an unfair advantage.

Saint_Genet 4y ago

Noticed 30 seconds in that everyone in the video still have all their fingers. Feel like this wouldn't be the case if they were cheaper.

dj_mc_merlin 4y ago

Everyone is asking "why does it need to be so expensive"? I think it's basically the same reason why anything that doesn't have to be expensive, is: 1) To make money 2) To elevate status For 1), buying world championship chess sets is not something done en-masse. You buy one because you really like chess and have disposable income, otherwise there is literally no reason not to buy a normal cheap one. For 2), you don't want people to say the chess championship gives you shitty chess pieces that break, no? 95% of people won't care, but those that will will. And 500 dollars is not very much for an event this size (although chess championships haven't been the biggest event..) The fact that they made a video showing off "look how expensive and nicely done our chess sets are" basically proves it's a status thing.

Karliss 4y ago

They way I look at it they are more like FIFA World Cup balls each year slightly different and for the last 50 years made by Adidas. Except there it's much clearer that they have little meaning outside the specific tournament games and value in sales outside it is clearly seen as collection item not as tool for performing the sport. There is no impression that those are only balls which could be used for proper football competition. From what I understood by reading "Standards of Chess Equipment, venue for FIDE Tournaments" Even official FIDE registered games could happen with other chess sets as long as they are approved by Chief Organiser and the Chief Arbiter of the tournament and comply with much weaker and vaguely defined requirements listed in that document. Although I wouldn't be surprised if many organizers due to prestige and to avoid any unnecessary complaints from players would still try to buy the official sets.

arnaudsm 4y ago

It's common to hear "handmade is higher quality", but is it always true? Automation with solid QA can be more reliable than humans, but a fraction of the cost. Mass production has a bad rap, but it's an art too, and can be done correctly.

loloquwowndueo 4y ago
Interestingly, higher quality was one of the selling points of mass-produced vs. hand-made items back in the day. “Machines are more consistent”. The “hand-made is better” myth sounds invented to justify higher prices for hand-crafted stuff and help keep some workers in business in the age of machines.
solatic 4y ago
You're thinking of mass producers like Apple, which hit both high volume and high price points. Mass producers like Apple have enough revenue to pay for the higher quality standards within mass production. Championship chess sets, even if you could somehow produce them for $5/set, are not going to have the sales volume to justify the cost of the automation + solid QA.
QuarterReptile 4y ago
>Automation with solid QA can be more reliable than humans, but a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure where the line is drawn for 'handmade', but of course the best version of 'handmade' has the humans doing the complex parts to connect all the tools together. It's like QA on the front end.
RHSeeger 4y ago
There's also the concept that the artifacts (imperfections) of being hand-made add value; much in the same way that people prefer vinyl because of it's imperfections. Having a master crafted _item_ vs a machine made one can be considered to add "quality/value", even if it's not as technically perfect.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like an incredibly easy problem for CNC, possibly with some hand detailing - or perhaps not. I'm finding it hard to believe that machines that can produce something like this can't handle some fairly simple standardised chess shapes. https://preview.redd.it/xbk6s64gu6181.jpg?width=794&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e734100ebd0ff19e70eea1d8d673b2336ebabed5 https://preview.redd.it/xbk6s64gu6181.jpg?width=794&format=p...