8 ms·

It's always a shame when ideologically motivated policy doesn't line up with reality. Bathrooms are closed to non-customers because the burden of dealing with t

It's always a shame when ideologically motivated policy doesn't line up with reality. Bathrooms are closed to non-customers because the burden of dealing with the occasional mentally ill drug addict isn't worth the risk or expense. This was just as true a few years ago when the policy was changed as it is now, when it has been quietly changed back. We can't have nice things because not enough of us are nice people. In places like Japan, where people are fundamentally more well-behaved, they can have nice things. I dare someone to ask why Japan doesn't have a problem with violent, drug-addicted, vagrants.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
Because they believe in collectivism. If someone is peeing on the street, they think oh how this makes my country look. In SF someone peeing in the street thinks aaah so much relief. It's like how killer whales share their sense of self with others in the pod.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  I don't think you need collectivism per se, all you need is functioning police. If you piss on the floor in a cafe in Japan, you'll be arrested, charged, found guilty, and sent to prison. This process is swift, effective and severe, and doesn't include any public outcry about racism or marginalization. Japanese prisons are inhumane by American standards, but cheap and very effective. They don't allow prisoners to interact or form a prison culture, so they don't function as criminal training centers. Consequently, crime rates in Japan are among the lowest in the world, despite declining economic conditions and dense populations.
  - vimy 4y ago
    Everyone is isolated in prison? You can’t talk to other prisoners?
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Yes. > When and how to speak. Strict silence is observed the majority of the time. During leisure times, talking should be done in a low voice so as not to disturb others. Utmost respect must be used when addressing guards or punishments will follow. 1. https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-...
  - kube-system 4y ago
    The police can’t be everywhere at every time. Policing can only be effective when crime is culturally uncommon and the incidents relatively mild. If crime is culturally excusable, it often exceeds what police can handle. Japan isn’t the only country with a brutal criminal justice system. Many of the other examples have high crime.
  - bozhark 4y ago
    Japan police are extremely corrupt. Extremely. There is a reason they have the highest conviction rate in the world. It’s not justice. It’s the social expectation that the law officers are correct, no matter what. If you are charged, you are guilty, as you cannot bring shame to the police. No need to pretend they are just or proper.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      I never said that it wasn't corrupt, only asserted that it was very effective. Just like Israeli airport security - clearly ethnically discriminatory, but also very effective.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      Polices aren't extremely corrupt but just sometimes incompetent. Prosecutors are corrupt.
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  >Because they believe in collectivism. Not just that, I think. What's true of Japan is also true of parts of Western Europe. >If someone is peeing on the street, they think oh how this makes my country look. In SF someone peeing in the street thinks aaah so much relief. In France, public urination is viewed as an unofficial human right[0], but I don't think you'd have SF's problems in Paris. It's just more "civilized" societies (with better education, law enforcement, social safety nets, regional investment, etc.). The U.S. is a step towards Pandora from Borderlands (in scale, material social investment, and cultural ethos). 0: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/11/646567224/paris-tries-to-control-rampant-public-urination-with-sidewalk-urinals https://www.npr.org/2018/09/11/646567224/paris-tries-to-cont...
  - jwilk 4y ago
    Text-only version: https://text.npr.org/646567224 https://text.npr.org/646567224
- usrn 4y ago
  Collectivism requires some amount of nationalism. When everyone in charge treats your country like it's just an economic zone you're not going to have that.
jamal-kumar 4y ago
The access to drugs is a huge thing differentiating but it's also that they didn't close down psychiatric institutions and haven't been in any major wars with a battle-scarred population for a very long time now. They still have a homeless problem, it's just without exacerbating factors.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  Right, so we should reopen psychiatric institutions, and harshly prosecute people for property crimes. This has proven an effective strategy to reduce criminality overall.
  - harmon 4y ago
    Honestly, I do think we should reopen psychiatric institutions (although properly funded and regulated this time) and forcibly treat certain people that need help. I don't think it is good or acceptable to allow people with obviously severe mental illness to self medicate with unregulated drugs or alcohol and walk around disrupting society. The current state of affairs works for no one, especially the mentally ill who we could be treating but have chosen not to. As for property crime, no one wants to live in a society where someone can steal your stuff with impunity, as the broadly supported recent recall of the DA in SF has clearly shown.
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    I think it isn't a very popular opinion to reopen those due to the enormous amounts of abuse that went on in those places. A more progressive approach I feel would be reopening them far away from cities and in nature... Much less like a prison and much more like going to summer camp. Not prosecuting property crimes has to be the biggest what the hell did they think was going to happen I have ever seen. Impunity is a slippery slope.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      It's indeed not a very popular opinion, but I think if you ask most people in private, they would happily tolerate the most abusive asylums/penal institutions if they could live in a legitimately polite, safe society, where even minor property crimes are a vanishingly rare occurrence.
cscurmudgeon 4y ago
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  People adore Japan because it is a legitimately safe and pleasant place to be, if you know how to behave yourself. And this is in spite of the racism that non-Japanese face being there.
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    - jamal-kumar 4y ago
      I've encountered people who have lived their entire adult lives in Japan right here on this site. Ever hear of getting married before?
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        Ever done any nontrivial reading? Beyond memes and one-liners that you think are clever? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan Imagine seriously claiming Japan is non racist and a good place for non Japanese to prosper (maybe white folks can). https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781498513920/Embedded-Racism-Japans-Visible-Minorities-and-Racial-Discrimination https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781498513920/Embedded-Racism-Japans... > Consequently, businesses around Japan display “Japanese Only” signs, denying entry to all 'foreigners' on sight. Employers and landlords routinely refuse jobs and apartments to foreign applicants. Japanese police racially profile 'foreign-looking' bystanders for invasive questioning on the street. Legislators, administrators, and pundits portray foreigners as a national security threat and call for their segregation and expulsion. Japanphiles will sing and dance around this discrimination.
        jamal-kumar 4y ago
theonemind 4y ago
Japan has a very high suicide rate which I think has a lot to do with the heavy-handed social expectations.
woodruffw 4y ago
Japan is an ethnostate where people die in quiet desperation. You don’t see society’s ills because they’re deeply stigmatized and brutally repressed by law enforcement. We can desire a better world than these two opposite poles.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  > We can desire a better world than these two opposite poles. I don't disagree, but if you ask me which of these two evils I would prefer, I would always pick the peaceful one. > people die in quiet desperation To me this seems a much more dignified way to die than in a fit of mad violence, trying to take what isn't yours.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Every human being wants peace and order. The question is the cost: you shouldn’t support Mussolini because he makes the trains run on time. Japan has made a cynical bargain: peace and order are worth an astronomical suicide rate and a civic ethos that prefers clean streets over individual lives. It’s their bargain to make, but it isn’t one that’s compatible with a plural society like ours. And likewise: everybody wants dignity. But I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      > Every human being wants peace and order. The whole problem here is that this isn't true. Some significant majority of us do. But there is enough of a minority who are content with violence and chaos as to totally destroy peace and order if they are left unchecked. This is true basically any place criminality is studied. The only remaining question is how do we deal with this minority? As someone without aggressive inclinations, I'm don't have sympathy or regard for those who display them. As a matter of primacy, I would like to live in a peaceful society. Anyone who violates this basic social contract has lost their humanity in my eyes. I would not object to their summary execution (in cases of absolute certainty of guilt), much as dangerous animals are routinely euthanized. The maintenance of civilized order, and resolution of conflict via due process, are the only things distinguishing people from animals. This isn't remotely comparable to making the trains run on time. > I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment. To me there is nothing more dignified than being unwilling to impose yourself on others. If no one wants to help you, and you cannot continue on your own, then taking your own life is the only dignified course, given the alternatives.
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
Aside from the major differences in social pressures others have mentioned, you've also completely missed that they have free universal healthcare in Japan. One might ask, how would drug addiction and mental health improve in the USA if we had free medical care and mental health care? Sad that you're so quick to chock up issues in the USA to "not enough of us are nice people" when there are huge material differences between the USA and every other developed nation.
sky-kedge0749 4y ago
> Bathrooms are closed to non-customers because the burden of dealing with the occasional mentally ill drug addict isn't worth the risk or expense. This can't be the whole story because a "mentally ill drug addict" is still the same person even if they buy something for $1 and become a customer.
tomjen3 4y ago
TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan just locked a lot more people up in institutions.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

Because they believe in collectivism. If someone is peeing on the street, they think oh how this makes my country look. In SF someone peeing in the street thinks aaah so much relief. It's like how killer whales share their sense of self with others in the pod.

thegrimmest 4y ago
I don't think you need collectivism per se, all you need is functioning police. If you piss on the floor in a cafe in Japan, you'll be arrested, charged, found guilty, and sent to prison. This process is swift, effective and severe, and doesn't include any public outcry about racism or marginalization. Japanese prisons are inhumane by American standards, but cheap and very effective. They don't allow prisoners to interact or form a prison culture, so they don't function as criminal training centers. Consequently, crime rates in Japan are among the lowest in the world, despite declining economic conditions and dense populations.
- vimy 4y ago
  Everyone is isolated in prison? You can’t talk to other prisoners?
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    Yes. > When and how to speak. Strict silence is observed the majority of the time. During leisure times, talking should be done in a low voice so as not to disturb others. Utmost respect must be used when addressing guards or punishments will follow. 1. https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-...
- kube-system 4y ago
  The police can’t be everywhere at every time. Policing can only be effective when crime is culturally uncommon and the incidents relatively mild. If crime is culturally excusable, it often exceeds what police can handle. Japan isn’t the only country with a brutal criminal justice system. Many of the other examples have high crime.
- bozhark 4y ago
  Japan police are extremely corrupt. Extremely. There is a reason they have the highest conviction rate in the world. It’s not justice. It’s the social expectation that the law officers are correct, no matter what. If you are charged, you are guilty, as you cannot bring shame to the police. No need to pretend they are just or proper.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    I never said that it wasn't corrupt, only asserted that it was very effective. Just like Israeli airport security - clearly ethnically discriminatory, but also very effective.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Polices aren't extremely corrupt but just sometimes incompetent. Prosecutors are corrupt.
shrimp_emoji 4y ago
>Because they believe in collectivism. Not just that, I think. What's true of Japan is also true of parts of Western Europe. >If someone is peeing on the street, they think oh how this makes my country look. In SF someone peeing in the street thinks aaah so much relief. In France, public urination is viewed as an unofficial human right[0], but I don't think you'd have SF's problems in Paris. It's just more "civilized" societies (with better education, law enforcement, social safety nets, regional investment, etc.). The U.S. is a step towards Pandora from Borderlands (in scale, material social investment, and cultural ethos). 0: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/11/646567224/paris-tries-to-control-rampant-public-urination-with-sidewalk-urinals https://www.npr.org/2018/09/11/646567224/paris-tries-to-cont...
- jwilk 4y ago
  Text-only version: https://text.npr.org/646567224 https://text.npr.org/646567224
usrn 4y ago
Collectivism requires some amount of nationalism. When everyone in charge treats your country like it's just an economic zone you're not going to have that.

jamal-kumar 4y ago

The access to drugs is a huge thing differentiating but it's also that they didn't close down psychiatric institutions and haven't been in any major wars with a battle-scarred population for a very long time now. They still have a homeless problem, it's just without exacerbating factors.

thegrimmest 4y ago
Right, so we should reopen psychiatric institutions, and harshly prosecute people for property crimes. This has proven an effective strategy to reduce criminality overall.
- harmon 4y ago
  Honestly, I do think we should reopen psychiatric institutions (although properly funded and regulated this time) and forcibly treat certain people that need help. I don't think it is good or acceptable to allow people with obviously severe mental illness to self medicate with unregulated drugs or alcohol and walk around disrupting society. The current state of affairs works for no one, especially the mentally ill who we could be treating but have chosen not to. As for property crime, no one wants to live in a society where someone can steal your stuff with impunity, as the broadly supported recent recall of the DA in SF has clearly shown.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  I think it isn't a very popular opinion to reopen those due to the enormous amounts of abuse that went on in those places. A more progressive approach I feel would be reopening them far away from cities and in nature... Much less like a prison and much more like going to summer camp. Not prosecuting property crimes has to be the biggest what the hell did they think was going to happen I have ever seen. Impunity is a slippery slope.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    It's indeed not a very popular opinion, but I think if you ask most people in private, they would happily tolerate the most abusive asylums/penal institutions if they could live in a legitimately polite, safe society, where even minor property crimes are a vanishingly rare occurrence.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

thegrimmest 4y ago
People adore Japan because it is a legitimately safe and pleasant place to be, if you know how to behave yourself. And this is in spite of the racism that non-Japanese face being there.
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    I've encountered people who have lived their entire adult lives in Japan right here on this site. Ever hear of getting married before?
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      Ever done any nontrivial reading? Beyond memes and one-liners that you think are clever? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan Imagine seriously claiming Japan is non racist and a good place for non Japanese to prosper (maybe white folks can). https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781498513920/Embedded-Racism-Japans-Visible-Minorities-and-Racial-Discrimination https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781498513920/Embedded-Racism-Japans... > Consequently, businesses around Japan display “Japanese Only” signs, denying entry to all 'foreigners' on sight. Employers and landlords routinely refuse jobs and apartments to foreign applicants. Japanese police racially profile 'foreign-looking' bystanders for invasive questioning on the street. Legislators, administrators, and pundits portray foreigners as a national security threat and call for their segregation and expulsion. Japanphiles will sing and dance around this discrimination.
      - jamal-kumar 4y ago

theonemind 4y ago

Japan has a very high suicide rate which I think has a lot to do with the heavy-handed social expectations.

woodruffw 4y ago

Japan is an ethnostate where people die in quiet desperation. You don’t see society’s ills because they’re deeply stigmatized and brutally repressed by law enforcement. We can desire a better world than these two opposite poles.

thegrimmest 4y ago
> We can desire a better world than these two opposite poles. I don't disagree, but if you ask me which of these two evils I would prefer, I would always pick the peaceful one. > people die in quiet desperation To me this seems a much more dignified way to die than in a fit of mad violence, trying to take what isn't yours.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Every human being wants peace and order. The question is the cost: you shouldn’t support Mussolini because he makes the trains run on time. Japan has made a cynical bargain: peace and order are worth an astronomical suicide rate and a civic ethos that prefers clean streets over individual lives. It’s their bargain to make, but it isn’t one that’s compatible with a plural society like ours. And likewise: everybody wants dignity. But I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    > Every human being wants peace and order. The whole problem here is that this isn't true. Some significant majority of us do. But there is enough of a minority who are content with violence and chaos as to totally destroy peace and order if they are left unchecked. This is true basically any place criminality is studied. The only remaining question is how do we deal with this minority? As someone without aggressive inclinations, I'm don't have sympathy or regard for those who display them. As a matter of primacy, I would like to live in a peaceful society. Anyone who violates this basic social contract has lost their humanity in my eyes. I would not object to their summary execution (in cases of absolute certainty of guilt), much as dangerous animals are routinely euthanized. The maintenance of civilized order, and resolution of conflict via due process, are the only things distinguishing people from animals. This isn't remotely comparable to making the trains run on time. > I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment. To me there is nothing more dignified than being unwilling to impose yourself on others. If no one wants to help you, and you cannot continue on your own, then taking your own life is the only dignified course, given the alternatives.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

Aside from the major differences in social pressures others have mentioned, you've also completely missed that they have free universal healthcare in Japan. One might ask, how would drug addiction and mental health improve in the USA if we had free medical care and mental health care? Sad that you're so quick to chock up issues in the USA to "not enough of us are nice people" when there are huge material differences between the USA and every other developed nation.

sky-kedge0749 4y ago

> Bathrooms are closed to non-customers because the burden of dealing with the occasional mentally ill drug addict isn't worth the risk or expense. This can't be the whole story because a "mentally ill drug addict" is still the same person even if they buy something for $1 and become a customer.

tomjen3 4y ago

TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan just locked a lot more people up in institutions.