4 ms·

What, exactly, in quantum mechanics is nondeterministic and how does that translate to nondeterministicness in the macroscopic/biochemical world?

by feet 4y ago

dekhn 4y ago
wavefunction collapse is nondeterministic (at least, that's my simple understanding). There is no known relationship between wavefunction collapse macroscopic biological systems. There are examples of quantum coherence, though.
- virgildotcodes 4y ago
  It's my understanding that the many worlds interpretation puts us back on track for a fully deterministic universe, no?
  - dekhn 4y ago
    I do not think the many worlds interpretation provides any value. I only care about what is experimentally determinable.
    - feet 4y ago
      100% agree. Theory is nice but meaningless until we have evidence
      - barneygale 4y ago
        Like all interpretations of quantum mechanics, then.
- feet 4y ago
  My understanding was that we don't have the ability to predict collapse, but that doesn't make it nondeterministic. I could be wrong about this, physics is not my field If there is no connection between wave function collapse and macroscopic biological systems, then that would mean that it doesn't matter. The macroscopic/biochemical world is still deterministic
  - esarbe 4y ago
    There's more than enough evidence that macroscopic biological entities use processes that depend on qm effects. See for example photosynthesis or enzymatic reactions. As I understand it, the wave collapse is wholly probabilistic and there's no "hidden data" (hidden variable[0]) that we could now to predict the outcome. At least not if we want keep expecting locality. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory
    - feet 4y ago
      The level that I understand photosynthesis and enzymatic reactions is that of electron transfer, but I'm not sure how the probabilistic nature of wave collapse impacts that. I would also think its reasonable to assume that we just don't understand wave function collapse in order to be able to predict it. But again, my understanding is at a slightly larger scale
      - tuckerman 4y ago
        While quantum indeterminacy is fairly offensive to most of our experience, and creating a theory which doesn’t have it is definitely possible, the result is a theory with some equally (or perhaps more so) offensive ramifications. Assuming you accomplish this with hidden variables, this theory would by necessity have to have global hidden variables and instantaneous information transfer. I don’t know if this actually impacts this broader discussion, and of course we can always discover new science, but there is a reason quantum indeterminacy is so widely accepted despite the near universal distaste for its existence.
      - esarbe 4y ago
        Here some more examples of qm effects in biological systems. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5454345/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5454345/ Wave collapse is only one possible interpretation of qm. And the Copenhagen interpretation - that proposes wave collapse - is not a complete theory. So yes; we just don't understand it.
    - 4y ago

What, exactly, in quantum mechanics is nondeterministic and how does that translate to nondeterministicness in the macroscopic/biochemical world?

by feet 4y ago

What, exactly, in quantum mechanics is nondeterministic and how does that translate to nondeterministicness in the macroscopic/biochemical world?

dekhn 4y ago

wavefunction collapse is nondeterministic (at least, that's my simple understanding). There is no known relationship between wavefunction collapse macroscopic biological systems. There are examples of quantum coherence, though.

virgildotcodes 4y ago
It's my understanding that the many worlds interpretation puts us back on track for a fully deterministic universe, no?
- dekhn 4y ago
  I do not think the many worlds interpretation provides any value. I only care about what is experimentally determinable.
  - feet 4y ago
    100% agree. Theory is nice but meaningless until we have evidence
    - barneygale 4y ago
      Like all interpretations of quantum mechanics, then.
feet 4y ago
My understanding was that we don't have the ability to predict collapse, but that doesn't make it nondeterministic. I could be wrong about this, physics is not my field If there is no connection between wave function collapse and macroscopic biological systems, then that would mean that it doesn't matter. The macroscopic/biochemical world is still deterministic
- esarbe 4y ago
  There's more than enough evidence that macroscopic biological entities use processes that depend on qm effects. See for example photosynthesis or enzymatic reactions. As I understand it, the wave collapse is wholly probabilistic and there's no "hidden data" (hidden variable[0]) that we could now to predict the outcome. At least not if we want keep expecting locality. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory
  - feet 4y ago
    The level that I understand photosynthesis and enzymatic reactions is that of electron transfer, but I'm not sure how the probabilistic nature of wave collapse impacts that. I would also think its reasonable to assume that we just don't understand wave function collapse in order to be able to predict it. But again, my understanding is at a slightly larger scale
    - tuckerman 4y ago
      While quantum indeterminacy is fairly offensive to most of our experience, and creating a theory which doesn’t have it is definitely possible, the result is a theory with some equally (or perhaps more so) offensive ramifications. Assuming you accomplish this with hidden variables, this theory would by necessity have to have global hidden variables and instantaneous information transfer. I don’t know if this actually impacts this broader discussion, and of course we can always discover new science, but there is a reason quantum indeterminacy is so widely accepted despite the near universal distaste for its existence.
    - esarbe 4y ago
      Here some more examples of qm effects in biological systems. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5454345/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5454345/ Wave collapse is only one possible interpretation of qm. And the Copenhagen interpretation - that proposes wave collapse - is not a complete theory. So yes; we just don't understand it.
  - 4y ago