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TBD Web5
- 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y agoIs this satire? I honestly can't tell anymore with projects surrounding cryptocurrencies.
- anonporridge 4y agoThe project is serious, but the name is making fun of Web3.
- woojoo666 4y agoHow are they making fun of web3 when everything about the project aligns exactly with every other web3 project? Is there a page highlighting the difference between this project and web3?
- anonporridge 4y agoUnlike web3, there is no flood of altcoins that early VC investors got in ICOs and are trying to dump onto retail. It's all based on bitcoin as the foundational timechain that periodically locks in state changes. As bitcoin is the most immutable database to ever exist in human civilization, it only makes sense to use it rather than try to spin up some new network.
- woojoo666 4y agoThat just sounds like they're strawmanning web3 to try and differentiate themselves. If that's their marketing angle then sure, but to everybody else they're web3
- anonporridge 4y agoI mean, no, the proposed architectures are fundamentally different. Web3 is proposed as building on a slew of disconnected, smaller blockchains with feeble security guarantees. There's a strong profit incentive to go this way because early investors can pump and dump the tokens on these alternative blockchains. But it's fragile and doesn't scale well because it's so disorganized. Web5 is proposed as building non-blockchain decentralized and censorship resistant systems, using the extremely secure bitcoin blockchain as it's only foundation. They're not trying to put absolutely all data on the base blockchain, which is incredibly inefficient and will never scale. They aren't issuing new tokens that insiders have privileged early access to. Web3 is a scam. Web5 is an attempt at the real deal.
- woojoo666 4y agoWeb3 doesn't put everything on-chain though? IPFS doesn't put data on the blockchain, and scales plenty fine
- anonporridge 4y agoIPFS isn't web3. In fact, raw IPFS is closer to the spirit of web5 than it is web3, although the foundation building it submitted to the altcoin craze with Filecoin. > The term "Web3" was coined by Polkadot founder and Ethereum co-founder Gavin Wood in 2014, referring to a "decentralized online ecosystem based on blockchain."[1] In 2021, the idea of Web3 gained popularity.[21] Particular interest spiked toward the end of 2021, largely due to interest from cryptocurrency enthusiasts and investments from high-profile technologists and companies.[6][7] Executives from venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz traveled to Washington, D.C. in October 2021 to lobby for the idea as a potential solution to questions about regulation of the web, with which policymakers have been grappling.[22] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web3
- woojoo666 4y agoThis is the strawmanning that I was talking about. Gavin Woods alone doesn't define Web3. Most people consider IPFS to not just be part of web3, but a pretty major part. Look up Web3 articles and you will find many include IPFS. It's really starting to seem like Web5 is just Web3. Edit: I think this discussion is quickly losing it's value and turning into a debate about definitions. But overall I'm just not sure if I agree with Jack Dorsey alienating the entire Web3 community when his vision aligns so closely. I understand being put off by the more scammy parts of crypto, and that is something that crypto has to address, but the majority of Web3 is full of developers honestly working towards decentralization and personal ownership. If Jack Dorsey and Web5 wants to cut themselves away from that community, I guess we'll see how it works out for them
- zombiwoof 4y agoThis is technology looking for a problem. When users own their data, what will they do, sell it to make money on it back to the companies we don't with their data. If the companies making money (Google, FB, etc) on users Data aren't making money, then we have a Catch-22. Users can have their data, but there are no viable services around to be profitable enough to operate. Jack is making a big deal out of something b/c he's trying to make a legacy beyond the dumpster fire that is Twitter, or a fancy looking cash register system.
- asojfdowgh 4y agoAll I can say is... I've seen it all before now? on "web2", nothing ever prevented someone using cert/key based auth, and there were libraries to abstract over proprietary APIs, but if you didn't want to go that way, there is also https://remotestorage.io/ https://remotestorage.io/ et al biggest hugest problem though: no one cares, go ask your mom about the difference between web1, 2, and 3
- lukifer 4y agoSetting aside the arbitrary fuzziness of the "WebN" labels, Web 2.0 addressed two clear shortcomings of the WWW stack: (1) no protocols for persistent user identity, and (2) no protocols for value transfer. The trade-off of the 2.0 era was (is): solving those required out-sourcing to private, pseudo-feudal institutions: Google/Facebook/etc in the first case, PayPal/Venmo/etc in the second. (One could argue that WWW did in fact have affordances to make this possible, in the form of cookies and SSL; but the point is, those affordances were insufficient on their own, requiring integration with centralized "cloud" providers, and in the case of value transfer, central banks as well.) The alleged intent of "web3" is to address these shortcomings in a user-sovereign, platform-native way. No doubt, a huge number of projects operating in the space are glorified rug-pulls and Ponzi schemes; I don't blame skeptics at all, considering the history of moral hazards, perverse incentives, and blatant scams in crypto-economics. All the same, I wouldn't write off the category wholesale; there are some fascinating things happening in non-blockchain FOSS projects [0], voluntary creation of public goods [1], and community revivification of the Commons [2]. [0] https://taler.net/en/index.html https://taler.net/en/index.html [1] https://commonsstack.org/ https://commonsstack.org/ [2] https://commonsengine.org/ https://commonsengine.org/
- afiori 4y agoWasn't Web2.0 essentially XMLHttpRequest together with more featureful servers like Wordpress?
- krapp 4y agoI think the general consensus is that Web 2.0 was the shift from personal content and sites to consolidation of content onto social media, SaaS and content aggregators, but that may be just an abstraction over a shift from a synchronous, mostly static web to an asynchronous, mostly dynamic web.
- uptown 4y agoI'm holding out for Web8.
- boffinism 4y agoThe Ocho.
- NotSammyHagar 4y agoWeb Ocho Cinco? Must be Friday afternoon.
- lukifer 4y agoIn the spirit of Asimov's Zeroth Law, I think it's time for the prequel, Web0 (since we all know zero-indexing is objectively correct). Bring back the simple purity of Usenet and BBS: everything that's old is new again ;)
- vittore 4y agoor web10 :shrug:
- michaelsbradley 4y agoInteresting! Seems to have a fair bit of crossover with what the Fission team is doing. Yesterday I stumbled upon a web page re: a presentation that a key Fission dev/founder (former Ethereum Core Dev) will be making in late September[1]. I ended up spending some time playing with Fission Drive[2] and looking at their Guide[3], and just generally reading their dev[4] and marketing materials[5]. Anyway, looking at the Web5 site, it seem to strike some of the same notes. I'm not affiliated with or participating in Fission or the Web5 projects in any way, but am working as part of a different team developing an open protocol for decentralized storage, which is focused on incentivized data durability. [1] https://www.thestrangeloop.com/2022/a-distributed-file-system-for-secure-p2p-applications.html https://www.thestrangeloop.com/2022/a-distributed-file-syste... [2] https://drive.fission.codes/ https://drive.fission.codes/ [3] https://guide.fission.codes/ https://guide.fission.codes/ [4] https://github.com/fission-suite https://github.com/fission-suite [5] https://fission.codes/ https://fission.codes/
- pfraze 4y agoThere’s a number of projects circling around this architecture (mine included). DIDs, signed or encrypted user data, personal data servers, and essentially federated sync.
- dubswithus 4y agoWithout crypto incentives how will users be drawn to this architecture?
- pfraze 4y agoHopefully, with a good product
- dubswithus 4y agoWeb apps won't implement it. Users won't demand it. Of course this would go a lot smoother if Jack had stayed at Twitter and implemented it there.
- zorlack 4y ago(web2)(web3) = (web5) (web)(2)(web)(3) = (web)(5) [SNIP] (web) = (5/6) Nailed it. Er.. Or web = 0. Hmm.
- NotSammyHagar 4y agoWoah woah woah! You can't just blow right past web 4. Unless you are following the rule that all web versions must be prime numbers. Then it's okay.
- etchalon 4y agoThis idea depends on two non-starters: 1. A completely centralized data authority (in this case, Bitcoin). 2. User's running their own infrastructure. "Put everything in one giant bucket, and make users 100% responsible for managing that bucket without any room for error" is not a workable path forward. Developers may love this type of approach, and appreciate the advantages it would offer, but it's too much to ask of my 70 year old mom or 11 year old nephew. An easier approach would be Passkeys and localStorage transferability between domains, or export feature on sites.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ourmandave 4y agoDevelopers may love this type of approach, and appreciate the advantages it would offer,... Like all the roll-your-own security success stories. =D
- madrox 4y agoWe’re going to keep doing Web++ until we learn to stop worrying and love the mess that is online identity. The fact is that the distributed data model will never be clean because, in aggregate, people don’t really care and don’t neatly fit into the structures engineers want to impose on data. This is why experience started winning the app wars.
- cyanydeez 4y agoNo worries. Once the numbers get to big, they just switch to years or whatever. If you're old enough to remember windows 2000
- cookiengineer 4y agoFun fact: windows 95 and 98 are the reason why it is Windows 10 and not 9. Cause you know, kernel_version.startsWith("9") and good old programming methodologies.
- Dylan16807 4y agoThat's a fake fact. The number windows exposes doesn't work that way and also pretends to be an older version to older programs. Some people pointed at java code doing something like that, but that code never would have failed either.
- bombcar 4y agoIt was a convenient story to cover up wanting to not seem behind "Mac OS Ten".
- jazzyjackson 4y agosame thing when the Xbox 2 was going to go up against Playstation 3, they went with "Xbox 360", and then after that, god knows why, "Xbox One"
- 4y ago
- lwansbrough 4y agoAll of this stuff is built upon the premise that decentralization is a good thing, but I have yet to see much supporting evidence. I do however see a ton of evidence to the contrary. (I see centralization as more like clustering than a unifying of everything.) Decentralization happens in the real world out of necessity, not because it's preferred. In fact, we centralize everything that is convenient to centralize because of its efficiency. And decentralization tends to occur at the boundaries of cooperation, where the problems lie. So why would I want enforced decentralization when doing so would be inconvenient or inefficient?
- michaelsbradley 4y agoCentralization can lead to inefficiencies and ineffectiveness (and other problems) at large scales. It is possible to have hierarchical authority and decentralized decision-making work together over the long haul, to alleviate those obstacles, even if the two bump heads on occasion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism)
- axg11 4y agoAgreed that the current (incorrect) web3 narrative is that all decentralization is good. There will be use cases where it’s good and use cases where it’s bad. The process to a valuable endpoint will involve a lot of duds and failed companies.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- doliveira 4y agoMy underdeveloped understanding is that the big problem is thinking you can build all of these tools ignoring the whole political aspect. And I don't even mean literal politicians, I mean the whole sociological landscape. I would like to see one of these projects actually involving political scientists, sociologists, etc
- quickthrower2 4y agoThe problem with centralisation is privacy. Big tech is hostile to privacy. Both directly (Cambridge Analytica) and indirectly (Snowden) and accidentally (Staff abusing access to servers, exploits). Another concern is Google is well known for killing accounts because “computer says no”. Using their auth means risking losing all your accounts around the web. That said, username, password, password manager is an effective decentralised system for authentication and has been the way since the 90s. Make a standard for programmatically changing a pssword and have more foss password managers and that would be good enough.
- axg11 4y agoIt takes a lot to look past the branding, but I think the vision is interesting. I think there _will_ be more personal ownership of data in the future, but not across all services. Decentralized, permissionless self-custody data only makes sense for narrow use cases.
- lottin 4y agoNo, it's just technobabble. Personal ownership of data? What is that? What do they mean by ownership of data? Like, intellectual property? DRM? What exactly? They don't know, because it doesn't matter, because it's just meaningless words that are intended to sound empowering. All web3/web5 promoters care about is that we buy their worthless, useless tokens. They can stick them where the sun don't shine!
- K0SM0S 4y agoThank you. Since the early days of mass internet, it seemed obvious to me that there was a need to "translate" into the digital world the legal principles that we enjoy in the physical world. Concepts like the privacy of a "home", of "mail", the need for warrants to reach any private item, or general manners like not snooping too intimately over a customer in a shop (you may watch what they do, where they go etc., but probably not strip-search them to the bone, at least not all of them all the time). That's why instead of going straight into tech, I studied law to have a shot at one day solving this problem, among others. We're talking constitutionalism, indeed property rights, and a slew of red lines to draw in digital terms (the sec community knows what "boundaries" mean as far as preserving the integrity of a person or system is concerned: big tech happily triple-violates those boundaries, not on occasion but as a business model and moral ethos). The inception of "social networks" a decade later only confirmed my initial worries, especially given the psychological profile of their executive leaders (they should know, as I do, that being socially weird means you probably shouldn't decide how people get to live their social life. Just sayin'). The real battle is ahead, it'll be played in congresses and courts around the world come a generation of digital natives in power (my guess is millennials, but history is being stalled by the oldest generations alive-and-well in human history, as you all know; so the beginning of a "legal update" process that should already have been done by now is probably still a good ten-fifteen years away). The tech part is trivial. There are 1,001 ways to implement privacy-abiding systems, should we choose to.
- tiffanyh 4y agoReminds of WinAmp 5.x, since they went from v3 straight to v5 (the best if v2 + v3 = v5)
- vittore 4y agoonly question I have, is the next version going to be web8 or web10?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- warkdarrior 4y agoI vote for Web98SE
- mminer237 4y agoLooks like the Fibonacci sequence, so web8 would be next, followed by web13.
- Semiapies 4y agoYup. Time to close the HN tab for the week.
- collaborative 4y agoAnyone else loves the UI or is it just me?
- K0SM0S 4y agoOld school style done in a modern way, very videogame-y, high contrast with pure colors, opinionated. I just love it too. They say design —art, really…— trends tend to come back after a while (usually decades), and this is a cool example of early re-imaging the inception of computers.
- civilized 4y agoThat's Jack Dorsey for you. He has a knack for making things look cool to his target audience.
- dubswithus 4y agohttps://mobile.twitter.com/CoinDesk/status/1535333277740965892 https://mobile.twitter.com/CoinDesk/status/15353332777409658... > Web3 critic @jack and his team at @TBD54566975 are out with their alternative vision for a decentralized internet: Web5.
- staticassertion 4y agoI can't tell if this is satire
- rufusroflpunch 4y agoSerious project, the name is mocking Web3.
- woodruffw 4y agoIPv6, OpenSSL 3, Web5. Success comes when you skip!
- anomaloustho 4y agoIsn’t the issue with these that ultimately it relies on someone to make good tools around, and whoever ends up owning those tools ends up owning and re-centralizing all of these decentralized entities? (e.g. Coinbase owning everyone’s wallets) One example they posted was that Bob is a music lover. So he keeps his music on his web node. I don’t know how Bob is going to do that if it’s not painlessly easy. And it needs to be in some sort of schema-defined format, and to be honored by all decentralized apps. So Bob is going to put it in something called “MusicBase”, which now centralizes and owns all of the data + controls the schema. A second aspect is that nothing seems to really stop the web from being decentralized. e.g. Scraping, APIs, and integrations. It’s just that orgs have learned that lock-in is advantageous and therefore found their way down that path. Am I wrong about this?
- woojoo666 4y agoI think there's a bit of a leap from "Bob wants to use music in any media player" to "Bob controls the schema". Decentralized governance exists (via DAOs)
- mawise 4y agoThere's a lot of infrastructure around DNS already, it seems to be an under-discussed tool for self-soverign identity. It does depend on ICANN and domain registrars but there is lots of precedent for transferring your domain between registrars or changing the provider you use to serve content at the domain. This is what IndieAuth[1] is built on and I'd love to see more discussion around it. [1]: https://indieauth.net/ https://indieauth.net/
- dontbeabill 4y ago
- zombiwoof 4y agono one from TBD or even Jack can clearly state what the problem is, beyond some conspiracy laden, techno babble. with square stock going to 0, you'd think they would be worried about other things. But that's Jack as a CEO for you.