5 ms·

I was at the opera last night seeing Don Giovanni and some of these excerpts from Peyps are fairly close to the behaviour of the titular villain. It's intriguin

I was at the opera last night seeing Don Giovanni and some of these excerpts from Peyps are fairly close to the behaviour of the titular villain. It's intriguing that recorded contemporary attitudes towards stories of sexual misbehaviour were typically tinged with amusement. Excellent article over all. Although one minor criticism I have is that it toes the line in terms of almost judging historical figures by today's morals at certain points.

zasdffaa 4y ago
Questions, then, genuine interest in how you see this (not looking for flames). What is wrong with judging then by the standards of now? If we did as you seem to suggest and not judge, wouldn't that negate the ability to learn from past mistakes because you hinder recognition of those mistakes?
- yung_steezy 4y ago
  I suppose the danger is believing that we are substantively different to people who came before us, or that our current moral beliefs are correct. Our moral judgements may seem correct now but there's a good chance future generations will look back on us unfavourably too.
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    > I suppose the danger is believing that we are substantively different to people who came before us genetically no, morally - well perhaps somewhat. Arguably. Maybe. Can you really rule it out? > or that our current moral beliefs are corrector that our current moral beliefs are correct We can be better without reaching perfection. > Our moral judgements may seem correct now but there's a good chance future generations will look back on us unfavourably too. I quite agree! Still, we can learn from the past and we should. You seem to be disagree that it's possible or meaningful to do so.
    - mmcdermott 4y ago
      > Still, we can learn from the past and we should. You seem to be disagree that it's possible or meaningful to do so. This might be a matter of perspective. The idea that humans haven't fundamentally (either morally or genetically) changed means that history cannot be discarded out of hand and is valuable. It can't be written off as being "different back then."
vintermann 4y ago
Did you leave before the part where Don Giovanni is thrown screaming into the flames of hell? Yes, they could laugh at sex, they could also get absolutely furious over it, and it wasn't necessarily in a court of law it got consequences. I think it was more than embarrassment Pepys sought to avoid by obfuscating these parts of his diaries.
- yung_steezy 4y ago
  I think Don Giovanni being thrown into hell is a narrative get-out-of-jail-free card being played. Most of the humour in the opera is derived from Giovanni's libido or shamelessness but giving him a comeuppance allows the audience to laugh at him instead of with him.

zasdffaa 4y ago

Questions, then, genuine interest in how you see this (not looking for flames). What is wrong with judging then by the standards of now? If we did as you seem to suggest and not judge, wouldn't that negate the ability to learn from past mistakes because you hinder recognition of those mistakes?

yung_steezy 4y ago
I suppose the danger is believing that we are substantively different to people who came before us, or that our current moral beliefs are correct. Our moral judgements may seem correct now but there's a good chance future generations will look back on us unfavourably too.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  > I suppose the danger is believing that we are substantively different to people who came before us genetically no, morally - well perhaps somewhat. Arguably. Maybe. Can you really rule it out? > or that our current moral beliefs are corrector that our current moral beliefs are correct We can be better without reaching perfection. > Our moral judgements may seem correct now but there's a good chance future generations will look back on us unfavourably too. I quite agree! Still, we can learn from the past and we should. You seem to be disagree that it's possible or meaningful to do so.
  - mmcdermott 4y ago
    > Still, we can learn from the past and we should. You seem to be disagree that it's possible or meaningful to do so. This might be a matter of perspective. The idea that humans haven't fundamentally (either morally or genetically) changed means that history cannot be discarded out of hand and is valuable. It can't be written off as being "different back then."

vintermann 4y ago

Did you leave before the part where Don Giovanni is thrown screaming into the flames of hell? Yes, they could laugh at sex, they could also get absolutely furious over it, and it wasn't necessarily in a court of law it got consequences. I think it was more than embarrassment Pepys sought to avoid by obfuscating these parts of his diaries.

yung_steezy 4y ago
I think Don Giovanni being thrown into hell is a narrative get-out-of-jail-free card being played. Most of the humour in the opera is derived from Giovanni's libido or shamelessness but giving him a comeuppance allows the audience to laugh at him instead of with him.