6 ms·

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware tha

by jmyeet 4y ago

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston metro area to the other is almost as far as London to Birmingham. Many Americans live in the suburbs. This is complete car dependence. Children in particular often can't go anywhere without being driven. It's actually depressing what a soulless barren dystopia most of the US actually is. [1]: https://charlesandcharles.co.uk/f/take-a-look-at-the-katy-freeway-in-texas https://charlesandcharles.co.uk/f/take-a-look-at-the-katy-fr...

mgdlbp 4y ago
> Critics say that the road will simply attract more traffic, but the way in which it is managed means that traffic is dispersed and therefore means there is less congestion than your average motorway. What's the incentive for a UK construction talent agency to defend it? I don't actually grok any road traffic science aside from repeatedly seeing induced demand[0] mentioned; is there any truth in that? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > […] induced demand[0] mentioned; is there any truth in that? RAND Europe 2018 study for the UK Department for Transport, "Induced travel demand: an evidence review": > The objective of this study was therefore to review the empirical evidence on induced demand, with a view to understanding the size of the effect and where and under what conditions it occurs. In practice, measured induced traffic effects will depend on the time period over which they are measured, the geographical area and whether short-run or long run effects, particularly on land use, are included. While the impact of background growth is not included in this review, empirical studies of induced travel need to control for background traffic growth, as well as traffic changing route (reassigned traffic). […] > The evidence reviewed in this study supports the findings of the SACTRA (1994) report that induced traffic does exist, though its size and significance is likely to vary in different circumstances. It was not possible to obtain any qualitative understanding about the composition of induced traffic in terms of new trips, redistributed trips, transfers between modes and trips associated with new developments. There remain wide variations in the quantitative evidence that make it difficult to draw conclusions about the magnitude of the impact of induced demand from road capacity improvements on the Strategic Road Network. However, we draw some tentative conclusions: * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-demand-an-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-de... * PDF: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/762976/latest-evidence-on-induced-travel-demand-an-evidence-review.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... 2021 follow-up, "Induced travel demand: analytical research": * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-demand-analytical-research https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-de... From the Netherlands: > The increase in traffic volume that arises after opening of new road infrastructure, is often attributed to ‘induced demand’. The objective of this study is to provide empirically derived insights in this phenomenon, in the amount of induced demand and in the benefits that adding road infrastructure has for users. Based on multivariate analyses of detailed data in The Netherlands from 2000-2012, it is concluded that the amount of induced demand in total is relatively low and that the relatively large increase in traffic volume during peak hours on roads that were congested before adding lanes mainly has been caused by shifts in route and departure time. The benefits of the new infrastructure for users have been calculated in terms of savings of travel time and travel time reliability. Implications for cost-benefit analyses of road investments have been reviewed. * https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trpro.2016.05.008 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trpro.2016.05.008 Huge amounts of academic literature on this.
  - mgdlbp 4y ago
    Oh, I didn't read what I wrote! I meant to question the blog's argument that 'the way in which it is managed...means that traffic is dispersed'; I see how the 'that' binds to the closer noun now. Still, thanks for the refs on the topic in general--I never really researched it because its existence didn't seem contested. -- Re-reading the blog, I just realized that they're referring to the managed lane system described in the first paragraph. Looking it up now, it does not look very effective. The 2013 study of the results of its implementation by the Texas A&M Transportation Institute gives a good introduction: > The Katy Freeway Managed Lanes on I-10 in Houston became fully operational in 2009. The managed lane facility, also referred to as the Katy Tollway, is the first constructed managed lane project in Texas and the first variably priced operation in the state since the implementation of the QuickRide program on US 290 and I-10 HOV lanes in Houston more than 10 years ago. The four-lane facility, which was constructed within the center of the existing freeway, can be described as a "second-generation" managed lanes project that is more complex than earlier-generation HOV-to-HOT conversions. I gather that the added lanes (four in every source I could find, but six according to the blog?) were intended to relieve congestion during peak hours, and that the managed lane system was used instead of a simple widening indeed to limit induced demand, through both tolls and HOV restrictions (incentivizing carpooling). But: > Figure 4 shows that the daily traffic volumes on the managed lanes were fairly consistent from about 2001 through 2008, even during the construction period from 2004 through 2009. In 2009, after construction was complete, a dramatic increase in vehicle volume was observed, essentially doubling volumes over pre-expansion levels. They also note that "isolated sections of congestion have emerged on the GPLs [general-purpose lanes] despite the increase in general-purpose capacity provided by the freeway expansion" and that "off-peak volumes are growing at a rapid rate on the managed lanes". Still, they manage to arrive at the conclusion that "the project is achieving its stated goals". https://library.ctr.utexas.edu/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=UmVzZWFyY2gtaW4tUHJvZ3Jlc3NfMTExMjY%3D&rID=MjM3 https://library.ctr.utexas.edu/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ct... PDF: https://tti.tamu.edu/documents/0-6688-1.pdf https://tti.tamu.edu/documents/0-6688-1.pdf -- It's possible that latent instead of induced demand was the cause, though. From another group from the institute: > Since its reconstruction, the improved capacity of IH 10 has been offset by latent traffic demand from commuters in the northwest and southwest utilizing IH 10 via Beltway 8 as an alternative to the heavy congestion on US 290 and US 59. This trend has been exacerbated since construction began on US 290 in 2011. https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/congestion.php#houston https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/congestion.php#houston PDF: https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/corridors-pdfs/houston/HOU-22-IH-10-101713.pdf https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/corridors-pdfs/houston/HOU-22-... -- There's not much more research beyond that--various news sources have cited traffic monitoring data as proof of continually worsening conditions. This 2015 piece from a think tank links to several local news articles and gives its own analysis: > We extracted these data from Transtar (Houston’s official traffic tracking data source) for two segments of the Katy Freeway for the years 2011 through 2014. They show that the morning commute has increased by 25 minutes (or 30 percent) and the afternoon commute has increased by 23 minutes (or 55 percent). https://cityobservatory.org/reducing-congestion-katy-didnt/ https://cityobservatory.org/reducing-congestion-katy-didnt/ Though, years after the lanes opened, that might just be population growth rather than induced demand. There's also a confounder in the US 290 construction, which didn't finish until 2017, but scrubbing through the TranStar data[1] I don't see a noticeable drop in congestion. But the talent agency post is from 2020; I still don't see why they feel the need to defend the project. [1]https://traffic.houstontranstar.org/hist/traveltimes_web_all.aspx https://traffic.houstontranstar.org/hist/traveltimes_web_all... ~~~~~ More links mostly for myself Portal for commuters: https://www.hctra.org/KatyManagedLanes https://www.hctra.org/KatyManagedLanes US and Texas Departments of Transportation on the concept of managed lanes: https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/managelanes_primer/ https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/managelanes_primer/ https://www.txdot.gov/driver/managed-lanes/managed-lanes.html https://www.txdot.gov/driver/managed-lanes/managed-lanes.htm...
refurb 4y ago
This is a bizarre take. Most suburbs I’ve seen is actually amazing for walking in. Sure if there is no sidewalk it sucks, but if you walk where people live usually there is a nice walking path, minimal traffic, lots of families around. I’ve lived in dense urban centers and walking can suck with the crowded sidewalks, always having to cross streets with cars, the noise. People aren’t walking in malls because of car culture. Usually they walk in malls because it’s too damn hot/cold outside.
- pnutjam 4y ago
  This is simply not true, and it was less true in the 80's/90's.
  - coastflow 4y ago
    There might be two separate assertions under discussion. One is that it is typically difficult in a suburb to get to a landmark destination (e.g. to the grocery store, to the gym, to a coffee shop, and to work) just by walking, without a car. This is true. At the same time, suburbs with low rates of crime are typically nicer to walk around without a destination in mind. It’s typically easier to go outside for a jog or run in a suburb than in downtown, as there are fewer cars on the road and other pedestrians on the sidewalk.
    - Retric 4y ago
      I have been in plenty of suburbs without sidewalks or almost worse where there are bits and pieces of sidewalks that don’t connect to each other. Walking on the road is possible, but can be quite dangerous in such places.
    - alphabettsy 4y ago
      > At the same time, suburbs with low rates of crime are typically nicer to walk around without a destination in mind. I have to disagree here. In the suburbs there is nowhere to go and nothing to discover. Walking around the city I see new people, restaurants or other businesses that I find interesting. The suburbs where I grew up were always the same thing.
msandford 4y ago
That's not an actual picture of the road in the article. I'm also not sure one should count the feeder or access road as a part of the freeway. If you can't go freeway speeds it's probably not a freeway.
- fourthark 4y ago
  I counted 40 lanes in that picture!
  - red369 4y ago
    I think that photo might not be of a real place - here is a discussion trying to locate it: https://www.reddit.com/r/whereisthis/comments/iss0vj/where_is_this_40_lane_megahighway_located/ https://www.reddit.com/r/whereisthis/comments/iss0vj/where_i...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- jfk13 4y ago
  While that picture doesn't belong with the article (it's not the Katy freeway mentioned, if indeed it's a genuine photo at all and not a photoshop job), the real thing in Texas seems dystopian enough in its own right: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,257.77h,88.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJQrYkXTzVgNM4TtXqzHNwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,2...
  - frosted-flakes 4y ago
    Seems pretty similar to the 401 in Toronto, which is 18 lanes wide on some parts (not including merge lanes or access lanes): https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64726,-79.6370771,631m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64726,-79.6370771,631m/data=!...
PebblesRox 4y ago
Reminds me of this image of the city center of Florence shown to-scale next to a single highway interchange. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/11/19/visualizing-place-vs-non-place https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/11/19/visualizing-p...
joeamroo 4y ago
Living in Katy is hellish when you don't drive and want to hangout on the weekends as a broke college student: A. you are surrounded by aliens (cars) who look at you strangely for not riding a car B. There's not a place to hangout and talk to people in the street
hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers chose it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike paths, hiking areas, or nature trails, but because walking outdoors can be unpleasant in the dark, frigid, snowy, and often-slippery depths of winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal for someone my age, but the risks are greater for an older person falling from a standing height (e.g.: one in three adults age 50+ dies within 12 months of getting a hip fracture). I imagine people in very hot climates appreciate being able to exercise in air conditioning, and you can also schedule it with others (say, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10am) regardless of inclement weather. But I would guess a lot of it has been supplanted by going to the gym (there are a lot more gyms, at least around here, than there were a couple decades ago). I agree about Texas. When I stayed a night in Amarillo I was astounded not only by the fact that everyone there drives a giant tank, but that there weren't any sidewalks, even though my hotel was within walkable distance of various stores, etc.
- Aloha 4y ago
  In Texas, walking outdoors can the unpleasant or outright dangerous in summer or frankly winter (in Amarillo certainly). We drive giant tanks because distances are vast here between towns and cities - also because gas tax is low.
- occz 4y ago
  >Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers chose it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike paths or nature trails, but because walking outdoors can be unpleasant in the dark, frigid, and often-slippery depths of winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal for someone my age, but the risks are greater for an older person falling from a standing height (e.g.: one in three adults age 50+ dies within 12 months of getting a hip fracture). This sounds to me like a matter of infrastructure - street lights and plowing + puttin gravel on walking infrastructure. >I imagine people in very hot climates appreciate being able to exercise in air conditioning, and you can also schedule it with others (say, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10am) regardless of inclement weather. But I would guess a lot of it has been supplanted by going to the gym (there are a lot more gyms around here than there used to be). And this also sounds to me kind of like a matter of infrastructure - planting trees to provide shaded paths and cooler microclimates could remedy this issue. This one is less solvable though on account of the ongoing climate catastrophe, but it can at the very least be improved.
larryett 4y ago
It is absurd to say there is no place to walk in the suburbs. People just walk on the suburban streets. Most suburban streets are obviously not the highway. I just got back from a walk in the suburbs and passed 5 other people out for their morning walk. I don't think I even passed a car. My impression of mall walking is that it was largely used by people when the weather was bad.
- bluejekyll 4y ago
  One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. It’s nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is a store nearby are upwards of four or five lanes across, and then the stores are setback behind huge parking lots without much protected walking from the street to the store.
  - eropple 4y ago
    > One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. ... what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. This represents in part a terminology clash, I think, and I think it impacts the discussion a lot. "Suburb" means different things in different parts of the country. I live on the edge of what you'd call "suburbs" around Boston, and yes to all of these; my morning routine is to walk about 7-8 minutes down to the nearest convenience store for a morning beverage and maybe a bagel. It's next to my bank, across the street is a coffee shop and a couple of nice bars. Maybe five minutes past that is a liquor store, an Indian food market, and my auto mechanic. I can be in downtown Boston, by train, in 30 minutes, but unless I throw on a backpack and walk 2.5 miles round-trip I'm not going to the hardware store or to a full-size grocery store. Which I do, when I have the time, but here's where the overlap with more conventional "suburbs" happens: when I'm walking somewhere, nobody else is. It's totally doable and totally reasonable, even in bad weather, but the locals don't have that mindset, so they don't do it. Much of what folks like Strongtowns talk about is actually represented pretty well in my New England town, but we're the "burbs" because we're outside the city proper. On the other hand, I've been to places like Des Moines, IA, and the suburbs are just car parks as far as the eye can see.
bcrosby95 4y ago
Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was plenty of things for me to do. Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I wasn't exactly aiming for mobility. This last year, I walked my kid to elementary school every day. It's a 10 minute walk. My 3 neighbors, whose kids go to the same school, drive them.
- hedora 4y ago
  I lived in a subway like you describe. The slightly newer suburbs didn't have sidewalks, and had non-leveled, unmowed (easy to twist your ankle in your 20's) green space moats between each housing subdivision and shopping strip mall. The poor folks had to cross a narrow, 4 lane car bridge to get to work. There was a bike fatality on that bridge every six months or so. This was in a city with above average transit and bike trails for the US, but most housing was still gratuitously car dependent.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  In the area where I live, the schools are in easy walking distance. I never see kids walk or bike to school.
  - frosted-flakes 4y ago
    Maybe because you're not out right before or after school? I know that at least where I live in Ontario, if you live within 3 km (elementary) or 5 km (secondary) of the school you are not entitled to bus pick-up. Maybe some parents drive their kids, but most kids walk, and a few bike. Also, if you live farther away than that, the bus stop could be as far away as 0.5 km where the bus picks up a lot of kids at one time (unless you live on a busy highway, in which case it will be at your driveway). Related: late last night I sent an email to my city councilor to see about getting bike lanes added to some of the roads in the neighbourhood of two schools. One of my arguments was that it would make it more viable for kids to bike to school. I've had this thought years ago, but only now did I decide to actually see if I could get it done. To my surprise, the councilor and the mayor responded early this (Saturday) morning, both in agreement and said they would add it to the agenda for discussion and invited me to send further comments to their Master Transportation Plan that will soon be meeting (I believe this is something they do every 10 years). We'll see if it actually gets done, but I'm hopeful.
sampo 4y ago
> I believe one end of the Houston metro area to the other is almost as far as London to Birmingham. One end of the London metro area to the other (say, from Reading to Southend-on-Sea) is almost (half of the distance) as far as London to Birmingham. Both London and Houston seem to have metro areas of maybe almost 100km in diameter.
robocat 4y ago
FYI: that “highway” is a photoshop fake. Note the pattern of dark heavily driven lanes - that is the most used slow lane copied again and again. See other comment pointing to reddit discussion.

by jmyeet 4y ago

mgdlbp 4y ago

> Critics say that the road will simply attract more traffic, but the way in which it is managed means that traffic is dispersed and therefore means there is less congestion than your average motorway. What's the incentive for a UK construction talent agency to defend it? I don't actually grok any road traffic science aside from repeatedly seeing induced demand[0] mentioned; is there any truth in that? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

throw0101a 4y ago
> […] induced demand[0] mentioned; is there any truth in that? RAND Europe 2018 study for the UK Department for Transport, "Induced travel demand: an evidence review": > The objective of this study was therefore to review the empirical evidence on induced demand, with a view to understanding the size of the effect and where and under what conditions it occurs. In practice, measured induced traffic effects will depend on the time period over which they are measured, the geographical area and whether short-run or long run effects, particularly on land use, are included. While the impact of background growth is not included in this review, empirical studies of induced travel need to control for background traffic growth, as well as traffic changing route (reassigned traffic). […] > The evidence reviewed in this study supports the findings of the SACTRA (1994) report that induced traffic does exist, though its size and significance is likely to vary in different circumstances. It was not possible to obtain any qualitative understanding about the composition of induced traffic in terms of new trips, redistributed trips, transfers between modes and trips associated with new developments. There remain wide variations in the quantitative evidence that make it difficult to draw conclusions about the magnitude of the impact of induced demand from road capacity improvements on the Strategic Road Network. However, we draw some tentative conclusions: * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-demand-an-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-de... * PDF: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/762976/latest-evidence-on-induced-travel-demand-an-evidence-review.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... 2021 follow-up, "Induced travel demand: analytical research": * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-demand-analytical-research https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-de... From the Netherlands: > The increase in traffic volume that arises after opening of new road infrastructure, is often attributed to ‘induced demand’. The objective of this study is to provide empirically derived insights in this phenomenon, in the amount of induced demand and in the benefits that adding road infrastructure has for users. Based on multivariate analyses of detailed data in The Netherlands from 2000-2012, it is concluded that the amount of induced demand in total is relatively low and that the relatively large increase in traffic volume during peak hours on roads that were congested before adding lanes mainly has been caused by shifts in route and departure time. The benefits of the new infrastructure for users have been calculated in terms of savings of travel time and travel time reliability. Implications for cost-benefit analyses of road investments have been reviewed. * https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trpro.2016.05.008 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trpro.2016.05.008 Huge amounts of academic literature on this.
- mgdlbp 4y ago
  Oh, I didn't read what I wrote! I meant to question the blog's argument that 'the way in which it is managed...means that traffic is dispersed'; I see how the 'that' binds to the closer noun now. Still, thanks for the refs on the topic in general--I never really researched it because its existence didn't seem contested. -- Re-reading the blog, I just realized that they're referring to the managed lane system described in the first paragraph. Looking it up now, it does not look very effective. The 2013 study of the results of its implementation by the Texas A&M Transportation Institute gives a good introduction: > The Katy Freeway Managed Lanes on I-10 in Houston became fully operational in 2009. The managed lane facility, also referred to as the Katy Tollway, is the first constructed managed lane project in Texas and the first variably priced operation in the state since the implementation of the QuickRide program on US 290 and I-10 HOV lanes in Houston more than 10 years ago. The four-lane facility, which was constructed within the center of the existing freeway, can be described as a "second-generation" managed lanes project that is more complex than earlier-generation HOV-to-HOT conversions. I gather that the added lanes (four in every source I could find, but six according to the blog?) were intended to relieve congestion during peak hours, and that the managed lane system was used instead of a simple widening indeed to limit induced demand, through both tolls and HOV restrictions (incentivizing carpooling). But: > Figure 4 shows that the daily traffic volumes on the managed lanes were fairly consistent from about 2001 through 2008, even during the construction period from 2004 through 2009. In 2009, after construction was complete, a dramatic increase in vehicle volume was observed, essentially doubling volumes over pre-expansion levels. They also note that "isolated sections of congestion have emerged on the GPLs [general-purpose lanes] despite the increase in general-purpose capacity provided by the freeway expansion" and that "off-peak volumes are growing at a rapid rate on the managed lanes". Still, they manage to arrive at the conclusion that "the project is achieving its stated goals". https://library.ctr.utexas.edu/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=UmVzZWFyY2gtaW4tUHJvZ3Jlc3NfMTExMjY%3D&rID=MjM3 https://library.ctr.utexas.edu/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ct... PDF: https://tti.tamu.edu/documents/0-6688-1.pdf https://tti.tamu.edu/documents/0-6688-1.pdf -- It's possible that latent instead of induced demand was the cause, though. From another group from the institute: > Since its reconstruction, the improved capacity of IH 10 has been offset by latent traffic demand from commuters in the northwest and southwest utilizing IH 10 via Beltway 8 as an alternative to the heavy congestion on US 290 and US 59. This trend has been exacerbated since construction began on US 290 in 2011. https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/congestion.php#houston https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/congestion.php#houston PDF: https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/corridors-pdfs/houston/HOU-22-IH-10-101713.pdf https://mobility.tamu.edu/mip/corridors-pdfs/houston/HOU-22-... -- There's not much more research beyond that--various news sources have cited traffic monitoring data as proof of continually worsening conditions. This 2015 piece from a think tank links to several local news articles and gives its own analysis: > We extracted these data from Transtar (Houston’s official traffic tracking data source) for two segments of the Katy Freeway for the years 2011 through 2014. They show that the morning commute has increased by 25 minutes (or 30 percent) and the afternoon commute has increased by 23 minutes (or 55 percent). https://cityobservatory.org/reducing-congestion-katy-didnt/ https://cityobservatory.org/reducing-congestion-katy-didnt/ Though, years after the lanes opened, that might just be population growth rather than induced demand. There's also a confounder in the US 290 construction, which didn't finish until 2017, but scrubbing through the TranStar data[1] I don't see a noticeable drop in congestion. But the talent agency post is from 2020; I still don't see why they feel the need to defend the project. [1]https://traffic.houstontranstar.org/hist/traveltimes_web_all.aspx https://traffic.houstontranstar.org/hist/traveltimes_web_all... ~~~~~ More links mostly for myself Portal for commuters: https://www.hctra.org/KatyManagedLanes https://www.hctra.org/KatyManagedLanes US and Texas Departments of Transportation on the concept of managed lanes: https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/managelanes_primer/ https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/managelanes_primer/ https://www.txdot.gov/driver/managed-lanes/managed-lanes.html https://www.txdot.gov/driver/managed-lanes/managed-lanes.htm...

refurb 4y ago

This is a bizarre take. Most suburbs I’ve seen is actually amazing for walking in. Sure if there is no sidewalk it sucks, but if you walk where people live usually there is a nice walking path, minimal traffic, lots of families around. I’ve lived in dense urban centers and walking can suck with the crowded sidewalks, always having to cross streets with cars, the noise. People aren’t walking in malls because of car culture. Usually they walk in malls because it’s too damn hot/cold outside.

pnutjam 4y ago
This is simply not true, and it was less true in the 80's/90's.
- coastflow 4y ago
  There might be two separate assertions under discussion. One is that it is typically difficult in a suburb to get to a landmark destination (e.g. to the grocery store, to the gym, to a coffee shop, and to work) just by walking, without a car. This is true. At the same time, suburbs with low rates of crime are typically nicer to walk around without a destination in mind. It’s typically easier to go outside for a jog or run in a suburb than in downtown, as there are fewer cars on the road and other pedestrians on the sidewalk.
  - Retric 4y ago
    I have been in plenty of suburbs without sidewalks or almost worse where there are bits and pieces of sidewalks that don’t connect to each other. Walking on the road is possible, but can be quite dangerous in such places.
  - alphabettsy 4y ago
    > At the same time, suburbs with low rates of crime are typically nicer to walk around without a destination in mind. I have to disagree here. In the suburbs there is nowhere to go and nothing to discover. Walking around the city I see new people, restaurants or other businesses that I find interesting. The suburbs where I grew up were always the same thing.

msandford 4y ago

That's not an actual picture of the road in the article. I'm also not sure one should count the feeder or access road as a part of the freeway. If you can't go freeway speeds it's probably not a freeway.

fourthark 4y ago
I counted 40 lanes in that picture!
- red369 4y ago
  I think that photo might not be of a real place - here is a discussion trying to locate it: https://www.reddit.com/r/whereisthis/comments/iss0vj/where_is_this_40_lane_megahighway_located/ https://www.reddit.com/r/whereisthis/comments/iss0vj/where_i...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
jfk13 4y ago
While that picture doesn't belong with the article (it's not the Katy freeway mentioned, if indeed it's a genuine photo at all and not a photoshop job), the real thing in Texas seems dystopian enough in its own right: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,257.77h,88.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJQrYkXTzVgNM4TtXqzHNwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,2...
- frosted-flakes 4y ago
  Seems pretty similar to the 401 in Toronto, which is 18 lanes wide on some parts (not including merge lanes or access lanes): https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64726,-79.6370771,631m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64726,-79.6370771,631m/data=!...

PebblesRox 4y ago

Reminds me of this image of the city center of Florence shown to-scale next to a single highway interchange. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/11/19/visualizing-place-vs-non-place https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/11/19/visualizing-p...

joeamroo 4y ago

Living in Katy is hellish when you don't drive and want to hangout on the weekends as a broke college student: A. you are surrounded by aliens (cars) who look at you strangely for not riding a car B. There's not a place to hangout and talk to people in the street

hoppyhoppy2 4y ago

Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers chose it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike paths, hiking areas, or nature trails, but because walking outdoors can be unpleasant in the dark, frigid, snowy, and often-slippery depths of winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal for someone my age, but the risks are greater for an older person falling from a standing height (e.g.: one in three adults age 50+ dies within 12 months of getting a hip fracture). I imagine people in very hot climates appreciate being able to exercise in air conditioning, and you can also schedule it with others (say, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10am) regardless of inclement weather. But I would guess a lot of it has been supplanted by going to the gym (there are a lot more gyms, at least around here, than there were a couple decades ago). I agree about Texas. When I stayed a night in Amarillo I was astounded not only by the fact that everyone there drives a giant tank, but that there weren't any sidewalks, even though my hotel was within walkable distance of various stores, etc.

Aloha 4y ago
In Texas, walking outdoors can the unpleasant or outright dangerous in summer or frankly winter (in Amarillo certainly). We drive giant tanks because distances are vast here between towns and cities - also because gas tax is low.
occz 4y ago
>Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers chose it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike paths or nature trails, but because walking outdoors can be unpleasant in the dark, frigid, and often-slippery depths of winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal for someone my age, but the risks are greater for an older person falling from a standing height (e.g.: one in three adults age 50+ dies within 12 months of getting a hip fracture). This sounds to me like a matter of infrastructure - street lights and plowing + puttin gravel on walking infrastructure. >I imagine people in very hot climates appreciate being able to exercise in air conditioning, and you can also schedule it with others (say, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10am) regardless of inclement weather. But I would guess a lot of it has been supplanted by going to the gym (there are a lot more gyms around here than there used to be). And this also sounds to me kind of like a matter of infrastructure - planting trees to provide shaded paths and cooler microclimates could remedy this issue. This one is less solvable though on account of the ongoing climate catastrophe, but it can at the very least be improved.

larryett 4y ago

It is absurd to say there is no place to walk in the suburbs. People just walk on the suburban streets. Most suburban streets are obviously not the highway. I just got back from a walk in the suburbs and passed 5 other people out for their morning walk. I don't think I even passed a car. My impression of mall walking is that it was largely used by people when the weather was bad.

bluejekyll 4y ago
One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. It’s nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is a store nearby are upwards of four or five lanes across, and then the stores are setback behind huge parking lots without much protected walking from the street to the store.
- eropple 4y ago
  > One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. ... what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. This represents in part a terminology clash, I think, and I think it impacts the discussion a lot. "Suburb" means different things in different parts of the country. I live on the edge of what you'd call "suburbs" around Boston, and yes to all of these; my morning routine is to walk about 7-8 minutes down to the nearest convenience store for a morning beverage and maybe a bagel. It's next to my bank, across the street is a coffee shop and a couple of nice bars. Maybe five minutes past that is a liquor store, an Indian food market, and my auto mechanic. I can be in downtown Boston, by train, in 30 minutes, but unless I throw on a backpack and walk 2.5 miles round-trip I'm not going to the hardware store or to a full-size grocery store. Which I do, when I have the time, but here's where the overlap with more conventional "suburbs" happens: when I'm walking somewhere, nobody else is. It's totally doable and totally reasonable, even in bad weather, but the locals don't have that mindset, so they don't do it. Much of what folks like Strongtowns talk about is actually represented pretty well in my New England town, but we're the "burbs" because we're outside the city proper. On the other hand, I've been to places like Des Moines, IA, and the suburbs are just car parks as far as the eye can see.

bcrosby95 4y ago

Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was plenty of things for me to do. Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I wasn't exactly aiming for mobility. This last year, I walked my kid to elementary school every day. It's a 10 minute walk. My 3 neighbors, whose kids go to the same school, drive them.

hedora 4y ago
I lived in a subway like you describe. The slightly newer suburbs didn't have sidewalks, and had non-leveled, unmowed (easy to twist your ankle in your 20's) green space moats between each housing subdivision and shopping strip mall. The poor folks had to cross a narrow, 4 lane car bridge to get to work. There was a bike fatality on that bridge every six months or so. This was in a city with above average transit and bike trails for the US, but most housing was still gratuitously car dependent.
WalterBright 4y ago
In the area where I live, the schools are in easy walking distance. I never see kids walk or bike to school.
- frosted-flakes 4y ago
  Maybe because you're not out right before or after school? I know that at least where I live in Ontario, if you live within 3 km (elementary) or 5 km (secondary) of the school you are not entitled to bus pick-up. Maybe some parents drive their kids, but most kids walk, and a few bike. Also, if you live farther away than that, the bus stop could be as far away as 0.5 km where the bus picks up a lot of kids at one time (unless you live on a busy highway, in which case it will be at your driveway). Related: late last night I sent an email to my city councilor to see about getting bike lanes added to some of the roads in the neighbourhood of two schools. One of my arguments was that it would make it more viable for kids to bike to school. I've had this thought years ago, but only now did I decide to actually see if I could get it done. To my surprise, the councilor and the mayor responded early this (Saturday) morning, both in agreement and said they would add it to the agenda for discussion and invited me to send further comments to their Master Transportation Plan that will soon be meeting (I believe this is something they do every 10 years). We'll see if it actually gets done, but I'm hopeful.

sampo 4y ago

> I believe one end of the Houston metro area to the other is almost as far as London to Birmingham. One end of the London metro area to the other (say, from Reading to Southend-on-Sea) is almost (half of the distance) as far as London to Birmingham. Both London and Houston seem to have metro areas of maybe almost 100km in diameter.

robocat 4y ago

FYI: that “highway” is a photoshop fake. Note the pattern of dark heavily driven lanes - that is the most used slow lane copied again and again. See other comment pointing to reddit discussion.