3 ms·

Is this supposed to be a critique of all financial investment or speculation? I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to take from this. Also talk about moving the

Is this supposed to be a critique of all financial investment or speculation? I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to take from this. Also talk about moving the goalposts, we've gone from "no one knows about crypto or cares about if its good or bad" to "they don't really use it they just trade it"

kkielhofner 4y ago
It's not a critique of financial investment or speculation. It's calling all of it what it is - financial investment and/or speculation. If someone claimed they were participating in changing the world and building the future of everything by shuffling Euros around on some forex platform and taking it home as USD you would be skeptical, correct? How is trading BTC any different? You misunderstand me. Many people trade crypto but this doesn't equate to actual use. Crypto exchanges run order books just like a forex exchange or other investment platform with a SQL or whatever backend. Do you really consider people speculating on insert-random-coin-ticker-on-exchange-here as use? It moves on an internal order book, it doesn't touch the blockchain itself. That is not use. That is people investing or speculating with an asset just like any other asset. It has nothing to do with the underlying technology or use. Nothing. Looking at the chains themselves you will see that very few people actually transact off exchanges on actual blockchains (real use). This is what I mean when I say cryptocurrency USE is irrelevant. Buying and selling BTC to take it home in USD to buy a Lambo is not USE of BTC. It's financial investment/speculation on some random asset and USE of USD.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  I do consider it a use of crypto, in this case it is a highly volatile speculative investment that can be moved into a hardware wallet where it can be kept safe from theft, and also transferred into fiat. Even if crypto never becomes more than that, I still think this is a valuable thing. With DeFi things get more interesting
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on use. I'm still of the position that trading cryptocurrency on an exchange and never using the underlying technology or touching the network isn't use of that cryptocurrency. The ironic aspect of this debate is I'm on my second blockchain startup for a reason - I believe there are plenty of use cases where it makes sense. I just don't think the cryptocurrency/blockchain communities are doing themselves a favor operating under the mass delusion that crypto is a big thing (while still being early?) when all available real data says otherwise. Trying to pump the underlying cryptocurrency by shoehorning the tech into anything and everything (and doing so poorly) will backfire as well (and already is). Blockchain and cryptocurrency advocates need to look inwards to identify blockers to mass adoption and address them while identifying real world use cases where blockchain/cryptocurrency provides real value and utility.
Dylan16807 4y ago
Whether the goalposts have moved depends on whether you consider speculative investment to matter for whether something is "irrelevant". I think you could reasonably read that post as a critique of speculative investment in assets. With the conclusion that if that's the only meaningful activity with cryptocurrencies then they're not doing very well. Investing in companies or in future production is a different matter. If cryptocurrencies can actually get that going at some point it'll be interesting!
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  I think we're in agreement here but I want to be clear. I'm talking about blockchain explorers. Use of the actual networks and technology. Trading on crypto exchanges does not utilize blockchain in any fashion. Given that this is HN I would think the focus would lean towards the underlying technology. That said one of the things I appreciate about HN is the wealth of knowledge and conversation about things other than technology. I suppose there's a valid debate to be had in terms of what constitutes "use" but my focus and emphasis on actual network activity as seen in blockchain explorers refers to use of the network/technology/blockchain for some purpose. I don't care what that use/purpose is as long as it actually uses the technology (which is on network and reflected in explorers). As we both acknowledge, blockchain explorers representing the reality of blockchain network activity provide an abysmal view of the adoption of that technology relative to historical technology platforms 13 years after release.

kkielhofner 4y ago

It's not a critique of financial investment or speculation. It's calling all of it what it is - financial investment and/or speculation. If someone claimed they were participating in changing the world and building the future of everything by shuffling Euros around on some forex platform and taking it home as USD you would be skeptical, correct? How is trading BTC any different? You misunderstand me. Many people trade crypto but this doesn't equate to actual use. Crypto exchanges run order books just like a forex exchange or other investment platform with a SQL or whatever backend. Do you really consider people speculating on insert-random-coin-ticker-on-exchange-here as use? It moves on an internal order book, it doesn't touch the blockchain itself. That is not use. That is people investing or speculating with an asset just like any other asset. It has nothing to do with the underlying technology or use. Nothing. Looking at the chains themselves you will see that very few people actually transact off exchanges on actual blockchains (real use). This is what I mean when I say cryptocurrency USE is irrelevant. Buying and selling BTC to take it home in USD to buy a Lambo is not USE of BTC. It's financial investment/speculation on some random asset and USE of USD.

bowsamic 4y ago
I do consider it a use of crypto, in this case it is a highly volatile speculative investment that can be moved into a hardware wallet where it can be kept safe from theft, and also transferred into fiat. Even if crypto never becomes more than that, I still think this is a valuable thing. With DeFi things get more interesting
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on use. I'm still of the position that trading cryptocurrency on an exchange and never using the underlying technology or touching the network isn't use of that cryptocurrency. The ironic aspect of this debate is I'm on my second blockchain startup for a reason - I believe there are plenty of use cases where it makes sense. I just don't think the cryptocurrency/blockchain communities are doing themselves a favor operating under the mass delusion that crypto is a big thing (while still being early?) when all available real data says otherwise. Trying to pump the underlying cryptocurrency by shoehorning the tech into anything and everything (and doing so poorly) will backfire as well (and already is). Blockchain and cryptocurrency advocates need to look inwards to identify blockers to mass adoption and address them while identifying real world use cases where blockchain/cryptocurrency provides real value and utility.

Dylan16807 4y ago

Whether the goalposts have moved depends on whether you consider speculative investment to matter for whether something is "irrelevant". I think you could reasonably read that post as a critique of speculative investment in assets. With the conclusion that if that's the only meaningful activity with cryptocurrencies then they're not doing very well. Investing in companies or in future production is a different matter. If cryptocurrencies can actually get that going at some point it'll be interesting!

kkielhofner 4y ago
I think we're in agreement here but I want to be clear. I'm talking about blockchain explorers. Use of the actual networks and technology. Trading on crypto exchanges does not utilize blockchain in any fashion. Given that this is HN I would think the focus would lean towards the underlying technology. That said one of the things I appreciate about HN is the wealth of knowledge and conversation about things other than technology. I suppose there's a valid debate to be had in terms of what constitutes "use" but my focus and emphasis on actual network activity as seen in blockchain explorers refers to use of the network/technology/blockchain for some purpose. I don't care what that use/purpose is as long as it actually uses the technology (which is on network and reflected in explorers). As we both acknowledge, blockchain explorers representing the reality of blockchain network activity provide an abysmal view of the adoption of that technology relative to historical technology platforms 13 years after release.