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Ask HN: How do I stop being used?

Hey everyone! This is kinda my first post so hi. Not sure if HN is the correct place to ask this. This is a bit personal, but throughout my life, I've been helping companies, big and small, my friend's startups, other people, even random people on algorithms, programming, maths etc. I'm happy they come and ask me for help, but it feels like I'm a doormat. I'm now trying to run a startup, so it gets worse. I don't mind helping my close friends though. I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? Yikes I feel so dumb. My family have told me I'm stupid, so I'm trying to set boundaries. Some kind fellow startup founders also told me to be more aggressive. The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free, but that's because I like doing these things. The people then make me feel bad by constantly asking for help, especially for profit generation. I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do? Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great.

throw8383833jj 4y ago
You have to ask for money. Not only is it good for you, it's excellent validation for your product. If no one is willing to pay for your product then it means you need to go back to the drawing board. If they are willing to pay for it great.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Yeee I'm trying - I'm chatting with like people on our services since it's part of a startup. The issue I have is going from discussing about the project and how we can do it, to the money step. Like say we make X 50% more efficient, we expect to get paid the full 50% efficiency since its now 50% more efficient forever. The Q is how do I bridge the gap to ask them to pay.
  - all2 4y ago
    > The Q is how do I bridge the gap to ask them to pay. "All right, you've seen what we can do. Let's talk money."
    - _puk 4y ago
      You can even do it bashfully.. "I hate this bit, but just so there's no misunderstandings down the line, let's talk money"
      - flying_colours 4y ago
        Hmmm I was thinking of maybe "So, do you currently have a budget?" then chat away
  - prox 4y ago
    You have cost and a profit margin. Talking about doing business is just that. “Let’s talk business” is a great sentence and tells the other party there’s going to be a quid pro quo. And don’t undervalue yourself, find out the equivalent prices in your area or what figure out what brings a profit and set that bar. A 50% efficiency increase could add value to your customer, why not make it an premium product/subscription/version? So keep your old clients on the base version for instance, or offer them the premium.
    - flying_colours 4y ago
      Yee wwas thinking about monthyl recurring models not sure yet though how I can "lock them in" the issue is I can't "delete" the code :(
      - prox 4y ago
        Don’t think of it as locking them in, think of it as value you are already providing. Business models change all the time, rebrand and re-engage if you can.
- __john 4y ago
  This 100%, used to have the same problem as OP. They want you to work on their startup start talking about compensation, that'll sort things out real quick.
EddieDante 4y ago
> Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. Never ask for pay. Demand it, and refuse to work until you've been paid. There are four words you need to learn to speak without fear, and shout if necessary. Anybody who has seen GoodFellas knows what they are. The four magic words are... FUCK YOU. PAY ME. Clip from GoodFellas: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48> Also, you need to watch Mark Monteiro's lecture, "Fuck You, Pay me" at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U>. My employers can always rely on me. But they gotta come up with my money every week. Payroll company fucked up? FUCK YOU. PAY ME. The client didn't pay you? FUCK YOU. PAY ME. It's an emergency and you want me to work late? FUCK YOU. PAY ME TIME AND A HALF FOR OVERTIME.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Oh first comment thanks!!!!!!! :))) Super duper appreciate it :)) YYeee I'm watching the 2nd video now :)
  - edko 4y ago
    The "FUCK YOU" part you don't need. The "PAY ME" part is great advice.
    - IntrepidWorm 4y ago
      Right - work on the wording, but absolutely keep the sentiment. You are clearly valuable to the people using your skills for their own profit. You deserve compensation and respect for the time and effort you put in. Regardless of how well intentioned they seem, be incredibly insistent on payment for your work. Ideally, negotiate pay before any work is done. If they resist this, you need to walk away.
      - flying_colours 4y ago
        Ye I agree on walking away - I'm gonna try doing this to future people. If I find they just want stuff for free, I'll just try cut to the chase.
odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
I would recommend reading: https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 You can ignore the women part, but the author touches on some of the reasons people act like you act and how to change.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Oh I'll check the book out :)) Thanks a lot :))
- qgin 4y ago
  Came here to recommend the same thing. The core concept of the book is figuring out what you want/need and finding ways to actively work with others to get what you both want/need. It doesn’t mean you can’t help people without advancing your own agenda… but it does mean that if you do choose to help people for nothing in return, you’re doing it because you truly want to and honestly do not expect anything in return. The difficulty comes when people view the world as having some kind of universal ledger, where if they give enough, they will be owed things (by the other person or the universe in general) in return. This is where resentment comes from. It’s a great book that has helped me greatly. (Don’t be put off by the title, which might make you think it’s somehow related to incel/redpill culture. It’s not. This is actually the book they should be reading instead of all their cynical takes on the world.)
  - flying_colours 4y ago
    Ohhh np on the book title :)) That kinda reminds me of the Giver / Taker / Matcher types. Like I don't mind giving, but it depends on what the person does with my help. If it's for profit generation, that's really not nice. But again - I'll read the book :))
g8oz 4y ago
"I don't have the bandwidth for unpaid work at this point, sorry"
- flying_colours 4y ago
  loll!!
scrollbar 4y ago
It sounds like you’re saying: all I need to do is stop, but I can’t! Meaning you are in your own way. If you have positive cash flow right now I’d recommend finding a therapist, since personality changes like this can take some deep digging. Personally I have found experiential therapy useful, things like EMDR, process work, gestalt, or even jungian dream analysis. Many on HN speak positively about cognitive therapy like CBT. You will need to spend a little time exploring and may not find the right fit with your first therapist. Good luck!
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Hmm on therapy - I most likely have ADD but I'm not 100% sure. I tend to not concentrate very well. I do know people have said I'm enthusiastic, loud, hyper, sometimes even on drugs (but I'm 100% not). I'm happy my family and friends, and well HN family is supportive so thats nice :)
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    Therapy isn’t really about diagnosing things like ADD. Therapists can’t prescribe drugs, etc. Therapy is good for helping understand why we do things we don’t think we want to do. I.e. it’s possible you’re not actually being “used” and that’s just a framing you’ve created to manage other feelings around usefulness + your own value. Or conversely you ARE being used, but you don’t want to stop because it provides something, some feeling, that you do want. (I’m not actually suggesting those specific things apply to you - those are just made up examples) I’ve found therapy really really helpful in terms of decoding motivations I wasn’t consciously aware of. Would highly recommend!
    - flying_colours 4y ago
      True I'll consider therapy :)) Nah definitely the latter - my parents and siblings keep telling me about my situations since it happened already like 20 times.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    FWIW, diagnosing and treating mental illnesses only partially overlaps with therapy. It's also useful for help with emotional/mental/social things in your life you just have trouble with — in your case, setting boundaries. A psychiatrist prescribes medication; a therapist is more of a confidante and a coach. Whether you have ADD or not, there's no shame in employing someone to help you be a better you!
wccrawford 4y ago
I agree with another comment that you should demand to be paid, rather than ask. But just telling someone to say "Fuck you. Pay me." doesn't actually answer the question. If I were in that situation, and someone asked me to help with something that I didn't want to do for free, I'd tell them my rates. "I need help setting up my WIFI. Can you help with that?" "Sure. I charge $50/hr for tech work." They're going to look shocked, upset, and probably angry. That's okay, because they were trying to use you and failed. Then they're going to pull the, "I thought we were friends" or "You won't help a friend?" card. Tell them that you've got a lot going on in your life and are having to prioritize things. Tell them maintaining work-life balance has been hard, and you're trying to fix it because you've been overworking for quite a long time. When all of that starts to make you feel guilty, ask yourself: "When was the last time they helped me with something they could do that I couldn't?" If the answer is "last week" or "a lot", maybe you should actually help them. But when the answer is "I can't remember" or "never" (and it usually will be), you can just stop feeling guilty. They're just using you. And it's okay to just say "No, sorry, I can't help with that." When people ask me to set up their wifi now, I just refuse. That's a huge pit of pain because they'll ask you back to help with every stupid thing they don't want to understand. I just flat refuse now for anyone other than very close friends and family. And I've got some family I'd tell "No", too.
- obituary_latte 4y ago
  This is great advice. Also can help to deflect "so and so computer shop does a good job with that sort of thing" if you don't want the work/don't have time/etc.
  - flying_colours 4y ago
    YESS! I'll deflect next time as well!! Hmmm the issue though is sometimes even I don't know who to ask. Most of my helps are like for software coding stuff
    - nittanymount 4y ago
      one time, I got into similar situation to help others (not many as yours). I guess, there are two type of soft rejections you could do. "I don't know how to do it", or "I have no time recently". wonder if you feel bad if you say you don't know? no need to be keep an image of being a hero all time... :-)
matwood 4y ago
An older friend gave me great advice one time from his experiences. You need a contract that sets expectations when doing any type of work, doubly so when it's for your friends. Of course if you're just answering questions here and there (like I'm doing here for you on HN), IMO that's what friends help friends do. But, when it comes to really doing work for someone, you have to be compensated. And like I said above, you have to be explicit about the compensation. Otherwise you learn the lesson the hard way like my friend did where he lost a bunch of friends b/c of a startup where assumptions were made and things went south.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Yee more than happy to help friends :)) They feel guilty asking so that's fine. Some get annoying, so that's when I know they're using me. The worst is when I answer their Qs, help them, then they ghost me. I'm really confused. Even a nice thank you would suffice.
havblue 4y ago
Why do you even feel compelled to respond to so many people if all they're doing is asking for free help?
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Well not all for free. It depends. I can't detect it yet, but the "good" people first talk about payment before I even mention it.
Terry_Roll 4y ago
I know this is easier said than done because this is when you find out who genuinely cares for you and those who just want to use you, but you need to charge for your time. Explain that you are being taken away from other work which pays, you may well get the Spanish Inquisition over your "customers" and income, you may get sob stories of how hard it is to bring up a family if they have kids, you will get bullied, you will get alot of emotional manipulation and guilt tripping put on you, but you need to become psychopathic over this and insist your time is money and this is what you are charging. The emotional abuse is tough especially when it comes from family and friends but its what you have to do in order to be successful. One of my ex customers, once said to me, "there are no friends in business" and its true, and he had worked dammed hard to build up his business.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Agreed on there are no friends in business. Yeee there are some I find who are really nice. I'm already trying, and with somewhat success I'm declining. I just need to fix up my speed of declining. But ye I need to explain how I'm busy with other work that pays me etc.
sys_64738 4y ago
Start mail those invoices for billable hours.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Yee some of my friends told me to just mention "what's your budget" then chat billing.
flying_colours 4y ago
Oh my I didn't expect all the comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks so much to the HN Family!!!!!!
kennywinker 4y ago
Consider licensing your hobby projects using the GPL. It’s work done for free, but if people build on that work they have to share what they build
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ye it was originally GPL, but I got messaged from some super large company I used to work for to change it to BSD, so I changed it. Anyways the package will get a makeover, so I'm switching to the AGPL 3 licnese - heard that was good for monetisation.
jlg23 4y ago
What worked for me: A radical "no", paired with a pre-paid IT service for parents. My mother now has a trusted guy in her town who'll fix up her IT devices twice a year instead of a son sitting a few thousand miles away and I can honestly say "I don't even do that for my mum!". Only downside: My mother is jealous because as a (retried) medical specialist she cannot just refer the rest of our family to "some guy in your town" ;)
- flying_colours 4y ago
  lolllll!! Well I don't mind helping my family and friends :)) They rarely ask since, but if they do, they're super nice about it!
vorpalhex 4y ago
> My family have told me I'm stupid You are not stupid, you are well meaning. That doesn't mean the actions here are correct, but as a first step: 1. Do not let anyone insult you. Your time is too valuable to let people simply tear you down. > The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free Open source and teaching individuals are good and correct things to do. 2. Don't let other people set your priorities. You want to mentor with your free time? Do it. > I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? There is a line where if someone is profiting off your effort, you deserve that profit. That line is flexible and personal. I prefer telling people upfront, before we engage, where that line is. I say something like: "I'm happy to give you general and off the cuff advice for free. If you want me to consult, that's $350/hr. Any NDAs or PIAs are $800 to have reviewed - that doesn't mean accepted or signed. Travel is $2,000 a day." Obviously, tune this for the audience. If your broke buddy is building his first app, maybe ask him to deal you in for 5% of his profits instead or something. 3. Your time is valuable. It's ok to charge for it. "Treat yourself like a friend you are helping" Whether it's to me or someone else, don't be shy about reaching out and getting mentoring yourself. Consider getting mentoring from someone with a business focus versus computer focus.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  THanks!!!!!!!! Yeee I love helping people - I like the suggestion on charging for profits - I definitely need to try that out next time :)) I'll probably write up a contract with explicit mentions of profits. On mentoring - ye I have some nice friends and company founders - they're nice, but I just can't seem to synthesise myself to be better, so hence I'm asking on HN
MikeDelta 4y ago
What do you think is going to happen when you say no or want to be compensated? They might start respecting you and your time more.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  True - we'll I'm gonna try declining next time
  - MikeDelta 4y ago
    Good luck with your journey. You deserve to be respected and happy!
akamaka 4y ago
I think you should ignore some of the negativity around you, like people saying you’re “stupid” or “being used”. If I were rich, I would spend my time doing exactly what you’re doing: having fun working on cool software, with interesting people, and contributing to projects that get used in the real world. And I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about the messy side of handing money and invoices. Of course, we all need to eat, and so you should work on learning how to handle the business side better. It can will be painful and frustrating at times, but some of the other commenters have great suggestions, so I don’t have anything to add. But don’t be negative about what you’ve done so far! It sounds like you’re doing great at the most important parts of the job, which is finding projects and having the skills to pull them off. Like Paul Graham says, it’s easier teach business to coders, than to teach coding to businessmen.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ohh I think it's cause I'e been in some many of these situations so maybe they're telling me to wake up. But ye painful :( I really dislike the charging part :( I'm learning :( Thanks again to the wonderful HN community!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
codegeek 4y ago
Some great advice already. I would also add that you can do "1 free complimentary session" and then charge for rest. That way, you can always help someone the 1st time with a time limit and then if they come to you again, you can let them know that it will be billable. This takes care of the freeloaders while you still get to help someone occasionally for free which you like. Win win. You could start with "Hey I would love to help you and just for full transparency, I am happy to offer this 1st session complimentary but I do charge for subsequent sessions if you will need my help. Does that work for you ?". Then Pause and let them respond. You have made your process clear. Now it is upto them to accept or reject. If they say Yes sure, then next time you know that you are not doing work for them without a proposal/invoice upfront.
- what-imright 4y ago
  That’s great advice, you want them to know you have a valuable service to offer, but unfortunately, so many people want it you just don’t have the time…. slight pause… correct answer is “well what would make it worth your time?” wrong answer; anything else, then ghost them
- flying_colours 4y ago
paxys 4y ago
The first step is to decide what you really want. From your writeup you are both happy and unhappy. You want to help people for free but you also want payment and credit. You think you are being taken advantage of but also don't want to say no. You really can't have it both ways. Pick a side, and commit to it. And after that stop caring about what others think of your choice.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ye I'm on a seesaw still :(. I'm happy to help, but only if I want to. On stuff I don't, then I need to flatout learn to make them pay for my time.
mgarfias 4y ago
Learn from Nancy Reagan: Just say no.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ye I'm gonna say no next time if I see they dont wanna pay.
609venezia 4y ago
Stanford GSB has a Prof you need to read, starting with https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workplaces-and-careers-one-truth-at-a-time/ https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workpl... Then https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/power-why-some-people-have-it-and-others-dont/ https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/power-why-some-people-have-... If you read and do, it will help you shift your theoretical understanding of power and apply it to the workplace The good news is, you're in demand, so you have a good place to start!
- flying_colours 4y ago
  OOO thanks!!!!! I'll defs read both :))) Thanks for the kind words as well :)
zander312 4y ago
I’m confused is this an open source project you are maintaining? If so, companies asking for help is a wonderful way to start milking some $$$.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Partially. A big issue is cause its open source, they feel like I should give it away fro free.
forinti 4y ago
A friend taught me a valuable lesson: never say no, just put a price on it that would make it feel worthwhile to you. This means you will have to think about your time and also people won't take advantage of you just because you don't charge.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Agreed on pricing - I'm gonna try everyone's suggestions when I next chat to people.
iamben 4y ago
Ask for money. It's really hard, I've been there. You want to help people, it's nice helping them, you feel validated doing it. But in the longer term you end up feeling like you do now. It's harder when you have a product, especially if you start offering that for free, because very few people value free things. The (kind of) flip side to this - get better at sales. It feels really icky and embarrassing at first, but learn to sell yourself and your product with a value attached it. If you're not happy doing it (for free or for money) learn to say 'no, sorry'. When people are paying, learn the phrase "that's out of scope for this project". Honestly, it's really hard, but you get better with practice. For the teaching part - a friend gave me a really useful tip. Give them a massive task first, something like - "read this book, it's $17 on Amazon, we'll talk it through after, then I can give you some lessons." It very, very quickly separates the people who will actually do stuff, care, work on their own and you'll want to work with, from those who are just dipping in and will suck your time.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  GREAT idea on the teaching part!!!!! I don't mind teaching in general, but I love the idea of asking them first to pay for a book or something before teaching starts!!!
outime 4y ago
This happened to me when I was a teenager because I was interested in computer stuff from an early age and so people would see me as a free resource until I decided to charge them except to my very close family and actual best couple friends (who always wanted to pay me and I had to end up accepting couple beers in exchange anyway). It all comes down to learning how to say no (in other words, setting boundaries) and only sacrifice your time for the people who deserve it. You don’t owe anything to most and if they stop talking to you because you didn’t want to work for free for them then they aren’t worth keeping around IMHO. There’s nothing wrong about shedding people if they’re only giving you trouble even if you’ve known them for years so don’t be afraid to do so.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Yeess! Same with my "good" friends! If I do help, they always insist and insist and nag they need to repay me through any means. My friends are fine. The issue is interacting with strangers :(
feifan 4y ago
Everyone's saying to ask for money … which is fine, but also don't forget to be human and make/keep friends. If someone's asking for a little bit of help and you're feeling up for it, by all means help them (and don't feel like you have to bill for the help to avoid being used). If you're not feeling up for it, you can decline ("sorry, I'm busy/I can't fit this into my head right now"). If it's a bigger ask (e.g. traveling to them for a longer engagement), then yes absolutely agree on compensation ahead of time.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Nahhh I'm super down to help. General help is fine. I block out Fridays for general help - copying Adam Grant's friday blocking method for givers. But I get sad when they expect me to help them more and more and more and more. Projects can take days and weeks and months.
  - feifan 4y ago
    IMO it's perfectly fine to start helping on a bounded part of a bigger project, but then decline to help on further asks/scope-creep.
midnightmonster 4y ago
If you had a friend who frequently spends their own money and time to help other people, those other people take credit for their work, they don't get paid, and they feel guilty if they ever resist doing these things, but they don't feel good about how they spend their time and they're feeling used-- - do you think your friend is obligated to keep acting this way? - what beliefs would you guess your friend has that guide their behavior? - what beliefs would you encourage them to adopt instead?
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Well I don't consider those people my friends anymore. I don't think they ever feel guilty thats the issue. Even when I'm near them and they probably can see me, they tout it as theirs. Hmm I doubt I can change them - I'm not gonna be friends with them - they still havent said thank you after ghosting me after 2 years.
jka 4y ago
If you'd like help with an open source pull request, tech support, or following up on some weird issue (particularly for any Python-based applications), let me know. No promises, but I'm glad to take a look for free, since you have provided the same opportunity to others (and I enjoy solving problems). You shouldn't be made to feel bad for helping other people out. And that also doesn't rule out finding a role and environment that pays you fairly for useful work. Good luck!
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Oh thanks a bunch! :)) Greatly appreciated!! I'll keep you on my remember list :)) But I guess I won't ask you for help most likely since I'm not the type :)) I was already hesitating if I should ask HN about my issues, but seems like everyone here is super nice :)
bee_rider 4y ago
It is fine if teaching people is a hobby you have, something you do for your friends, etc. Other people play videogames or go fishing (both of which can cost money), if you find teaching for free more enjoyable, then have fun with it. I bet it is good for your reputation. But if you aren't getting paid for it, then keep in mind that it is in your "hobby" box. Limit your time investment to an afternoon or something like that. If you want to make a career out of helping people with little projects -- lots of people have made their careers as contractors, right?
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ye teaching is fun :)) The issue is when people start asking for "custom" solutions. COntracting hmm - I was hoping to maybe turn our services into a startup though maybe I'm not cut out for it.
what-imright 4y ago
Ok I have your solution right here. Block people who use you and don’t pay. Be nice if they get a hold of you, don’t burn bridges and hurt feelings, just be totally unavailable to someone who didn’t pay for the last “favor”. If they so happen to seek you out, unfortunately, you’re busy for the next 10 days, and even then it’s not for sure. Look - there is something wrong with you. At some point the lesson that you should help others and be kind was indoctrinated into you, probably by your parents, maybe because they knew based on looks you would never get laid and have grandchildren, and so you would have to be kind to have a chance. People exchange their time for money. Everyone does this, that’s how we all eat, so why is your wallet empty?. If you’re paid for a job do it right and proper. If your pay is overlooked, become unreachable. Block them on your phone and email. Just cease to exist. It works. You’ll end up with people who respect you enough not to steal your time - and those people are NOT your friends, even if they’re friendly because they want to use you. As you well know. And that brings me to another point. If you know something isn’t in your interests then why are you doing it? I ask smokers that. Pull on that thread. Good luck, and BTW, your time as a startup founder is worth $1000 per hour. Seriously.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Yee I won't burn bridges :)) I still act normally around them :)) Ye parents maybe? Nahh doubt it. My siblings are like totally opposite to me. True - I need to take take a good hard look at my life. Oh thanks!!!!!!
seer 4y ago
A lot of the other posts kinda miss one obvious solution. Yes you can “charge” for your stuff. I’ve learned not to even try doing work stuff for friends - “yeah you probably can’t afford what I’m gonna charge” kinda answer. But if its trivial stuff - setup windows, wifi, help moving house etc. I’m more than happy to help, thats what friends are for. The trick is to _also ask about stuff in return_. I’m terrible at picking clothes, so I ask female friends who’s taste I trust to help me pick stuff for me. Things like that. Asking for help is what builds bonds and friendships, and then whatever they ask of you wouldn’t feel unpleasant. Just don’t do work stuff :-D
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Oh nahhh thats fine - I do the basic things for free. But I get asked complex things eg: 1. make this algorithm in my code more efficient and faster 2. build an entire artificial intelligence solution for their own startup
randrews 4y ago
Demanding money works, but I think it's a proxy for something else that works equally well: I own a laser cutter. Owning a laser cutter is sort of like the maker equivalent of being "that friend with the truck." I eventually settled on this set of rules: 1. I will cut anything (within reason) that you supply me files for. 2. If you don't know how to make the files, I'll sit with you and teach you how. And those two rules will keep just about everyone from ever using my laser. I even offer to supply material, for small projects, and it doesn't help. It's astounding the excuses people will come up with to avoid spending a couple hours learning how to use a ruler and LibreCAD. Everyone seems to want laser cut stuff, but no one wants to put forth any effort whatsoever to make that happen. So, I recommend that as an option: if you want to get people to pay you for stuff, because you want the money, you can absolutely do that. But if you're like me and don't really care about the money, then instead find a way to filter out the people / requests who aren't serious about it. Require that they put in some effort of their own to make their thing happen, and that that effort be advanced up front before you do your piece. This means you can still help the friends who really value your time, while no longer having that time wasted by the other ones.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  I agree on filtering people out. Most I try to teach, but really just want the end product, and that's not nice. I'll try next time on filtering thanks!
  - randrews 4y ago
    It's what I do because I don't want the money, I want to hang out with friends who share my interests. A couple people have actually taken me up on it; come over with a pizza and we spend an evening cutting things out and it's fun. I'd rather have that than the $20 or whatever the other ones would pay.
josefresco 4y ago
I'd suggest creating a payment structure that's easy to communicate and utilize for multiple style of project. "Yes I'd be happy to help, I charge $100/hour and you can pay a $500 deposit online here: <link>" This will make "asking" for payment easier, and there will be no uncomfortable moment where you need to potentially haggle or negotiate fees and terms.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Agreed on payment structures - I'll get it setup ASAP as an easy doc.
tremon 4y ago
It depends on the friends of course, but I usually invite myself over for dinner, then fix their issues afterwards. For others, I usually send them a bill of materials, with the strong implication that those costs are theirs to pay. Or I do both. Others have already mentioned it, but for companies, the first response should probably be mentioning your hourly rate: "Sure, I usually work for €80/hour, let's setup a meeting to discuss what you need done". Such pre-sales meetings (including travel costs) are usually at your own expense, so you need to factor those in to your hourly rates. Teaching can actually be a good starting point as well, both for network building and to assess their skills should you need them in the future. Still, remember that good teachers don't solve their students' problems for them: they only give pointers and explain concepts. If they ask you to do their work for them, you can turn it around and confront them with it: "I thought you wanted to learn? Of course, I can do it for you as well, but in that case I'll need to charge X/hour".
- flying_colours 4y ago
  I LIKE that as well!!! Essetially turn the question on its head and ask them instead!!! I'll have to make it not sound sarcastic though. Ye I'll factor in travel next time
nonrandomstring 4y ago
Stop trying to be liked. You already know you are a valuable, smart person. You don't need to prove that to other people any more. Figure out what it is you are really trying to do with your talents. It may be that money is not actually your principle motive. All the same, it doesn't hurt to put a dollar value on an hour of your time. Saying "I am sixty bucks an hour" (or whatever works in your world) gives you a solid forward operating position.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Thanks :)) Hmmm true - I need to think more. Especially on pricing - depending on what needs to be done, I guess I'll charge differently. But ye I agree I should stop appeasing to others and reflect on what I want.
leke 4y ago
This came up in my subscription feed. I think it's just what you are looking for. How to say no: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwzPJhutVaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwzPJhutVaY If you want to do the thing, but for compensation or some other condition, there is also yes, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaClwd0W5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaClwd0W5w Or yes, and...these are my rates. For example.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  I'll defs watch them!! Thanks!! Hmm I just need to learn to be "smooth" in the transition from project chatting to talking about fees
johndoe74 4y ago
First rule, no one values anything that didn't cost them something. You're being taken advantage of because even though they may want your time, knowledge and experience it isn't worth anything more than free to them. I've been a consultant for over 20yrs and run into this with current and past customers alike. I've even been asked to bogus interviews just to be asked questions to problems they're trying to solve. I handle this by plainly stating my value and bill rates up front letting them know my time and experience is valuable. While I usually entertain a certain level of discussion I'll typically ask more questions of them about what they're trying to solve rather than just answering their questions or giving away solutions. If they need more of my time or assistance I say I'm happy to help, let them know my availability and will offer to draft a statement of work if they want to proceed. This will weed out those looking for a free ride from those who respect you and take you seriously. If you're already working for a customer and they ask for your help in a totally separate area, same thing applies offer simple advice if asked, but if it becomes additional work they task you with ask for a change scope to the current statement of work and adjust your rates or hours accordingly and set proper expectations for delivery of current and new scope. Best of luck.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  True I agree since I didn't charge, they don't value it oh well :(( I like the asking them more Qs point! I'm gonna try this next time!!!!! I'll keep my mouth tight lipped on solutions (if I can!!!) Ok ok agreed on the statement of work thingo - i have some dumb contracts but seems like I might have to include more specific expectations and stuff
GeorgeTirebiter 4y ago
My mother always said I was "too nice". I never thought of it that way. It was like, I can help somebody, so I should -- no skin off my nose. But you found where that leads: to 'infinite' helping people, with no expected 'reward' except you having helped another. I believe this mindset is 'injected' (programmed) at a young age; maybe you are an older sibling, and had to help with the youngsters. Maybe some other family members needed you to do things. I'm only saying we are taught to behave this way, unconsciously, by circumstances of our childhoods. For this reason (the behavior partly defines who 'we' are), wanting to 'be different' means changing who we are, as a person. We have to put that part that is no longer serving us ('help others, always') to rest, and replace it with a better belief that supports us now. Because the 'programming' that results in this behavior is likely pretty solid, I agree with another response here that therapy would be worth considering. For me, I've decided it's better to get beat in some deal from time to time, if it allows me to retain the fiction that 'all people are nice to me, and I will be nice to them'. But I am often re-evaluating even this, because, heck, even Wayne Dyer mentioned it's hard to please more than half the folks - so just accept that. I applaud you for your awareness of this issue, and I would appreciate if you could post again next year on how you've dealt with this problem. Good Luck.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Thanks!!!!!!!! Yee I don't wanna change myself too much - I just can't bring myself to doing it - but I'm trying!!!! But ye will consider more expert help as well :))) Thanks will do!! I'll keep people posted!!!
flying_colours 4y ago
PS thanks so much to everyone here! I'm the type to respond to everyone's replies so apologies if I didn't - again thanks so much for all the wonderful help!
silicon2401 4y ago
> Like I don't wanna reject them You need to learn how to reject them > if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. You need to learn how to state your fee. The overall solution you're looking for is: how to be disagreeable. It doesn't sound like you're stupid at all, it just sounds like you're a doormat and overly agreeable. There's nothing wrong with saying "sorry, I can't help you with that" or "I can do that for you if you pay me $X". It's literally that simple. The hard part is practicing it until it becomes easy.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ye I do know I'm extremely agreeable. I did watch Peterson's video on training to be more disagreeable.
juancn 4y ago
There's a saying "Never do for free something you're good at". If you're good at it, you're on the top performers, so you're scarce by definition, hence, valuable. Also, some people tend to unconsciously feel that if you enjoy doing something it's not valuable (it may be an unintended consequence of valuing hard work: if you enjoy it, it's not hard work, so it's not valuable, idk). This is a mindset, and I think you're starting to understand that it's not conductive to economic success and happiness. Sometimes what you get is not pay as in money, you may be owed a favor, networked into some area you didn't have access before (i.e. the first one is free) or are just consciously doing it as a "donation" if you like for some good cause. But it still has value. Sometimes what it helps is thinking about cost, not just actual cost (driving, wear and tear of tools, etc.), but think about opportunity cost: what could you have done with that time? Is it worth it to spend time on that? Keep your priorities straight, what are your goals? Does doing this gets you closer or further away? Sometimes even if they're willing to pay you, you may not want to do it, because money alone won't get you closer to your goals. Once you start changing your mindset, saying 'no' starts becoming easier and you're better prepared to decide wether you should do something or not. What would make it worth your while, and it becomes clear what you should demand for it.
slipwalker 4y ago
my 2cents: when you feel you are being used, and don't feel you have the disposition to confront your abuser, just start making (intentional) mistakes. If your "mistakes" cause enough trouble to the abuser, (s)he will leave you alone. it's even fun to watch them suffering.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Yikes I guess thats one approach lolL!!
thefz 4y ago
> I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do? > Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. My suggestion is: you think it will be painful to say no, but: just don't do what they ask. I really really put a lot of thought into this during years, and usually the best thing you can do is to put a small condition beforehand that will make it a little bit easier for you to help and a little road bump for those asking. 90% of them will back out. This also helps people to understand that there's WORK involved and you do not just clap your hands and solve things. Let them do a piece of that work. As an example, you need your laptop fixed? Just ask them to make a full backup of their hard drive because if something goes wrong they might lose all their files. Or make an excuse, someone blamed you for losing their files once and now you don't want the responsibility and ask everyone to demonstrate they have a mirror copy of their drive. People need WiFi set up? Ask them to have ready all the ISP data they need like subscription # in case you need to call, WiFi password if given, and so on. Some of them will figure it out by themselves once they have all the data. If you let them, people will grind you down without even realizing it. Or they do, and don't care.
billybuckwheat 4y ago
There's a fine line between pitching in to help someone and working for them for nothing. Sounds, as many people have pointed out, that you're on the wrong side of that line. The next time you're asked to help, ask them where you send the invoice. Or lay out some terms of engagement - what you will and won't do, how many hours you'll work, the hourly fee you're expecting, payment terms, and reasonable travel expenses (if any travel is involved). Yes, that will probably turn a lot of people away, but if they're making money from your time and effort shouldn't you?
dontbenebby 4y ago
I had the same feeling -- have you considered emigrating to a lower cost of living area? I'm looking into my Italian passport, I might move to Sicily, or bounce around SE Asia. I've had my work literally go into whitepapers uncited, and folks simply refuse to answer my emails about the issue, so the plan is absent one of the places I'm talking to now hiring me, to just... leave. To emigrate. (But maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow.)
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Oh mm never actually considered this!
nannePOPI 4y ago
WelcomeShorty 4y ago
Old man here, and I read the threat, ignored it, went for lunch but I could not stop thinking about your question... Dude, look at your responses here in this threat. You have said YES to each and every proposal. You have assigned yourself at least 20 hours of work, how is that going to fit into your tight schedule? You know it: it will not. Just read back your own answers and you will see what your problem is. It might even lead you to the "you specific" answer. I mean this very positive.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  I guess I just wanted to thank the people who replied :)) But I do agree I have issues - as you said I've replied yes yes yes I'll try oh well :(
flying_colours 4y ago
PS to everyone - thanks to everyone here! Someone asked me for help today, and following a plethora of suggestions, I SUCCESSFULLY asked them for payment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel so accomplished!! I started asking THEM questions about their project, what they wanted. I then asked them about their budget, their proposed use case of whatever software they're building, and crept in talks on compenstation etc - ie I mentioned how I had my own startup, and I can't help too much etc. They're offering a reasonable 15% equity in their venture + wages!!!! As suggested by people here, I'm gonna get this all in writing, do nothing on the job until its written, and add clauses on late payments, etc! I couldn't respond to everyone here - but I wanna say - THANK YOU! Big THANKS!! I think I grew the most today in like 2 years :))))))
foxes 4y ago
Lmao at the unhinged comments so far > Turn everything into a transaction! > Make them pay! > Make them immediately do something for you in exchange! It makes me think no one in this thread has actual friends. Friendship is still mutual, its okay to say no you are busy, or you need space. Good friends can communicate their feelings. Friends can do things for you, and it doesn't have to always be material. Putting aside time for you can be friendship.
csomar 4y ago
> I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. Is that Open Source GPL/MIT? You define the license. > The worse is when they advertise that they did it. Why do you care? > I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? Yikes I feel so dumb. I don't get it. You traveled to some company at your own expense to solve a problem to them? > I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do? Define your friends. You'll likely find out you have 1-3 actual friends and the rest are just people you happen to know. Also define the members of your family you are obligated/responsible to help. For everybody else, just ignore the requests and they'll stop asking. > Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. Don't ask "friends" to pay. They don't have the budget. Do ask companies to pay beforehand; however. Don't worry, if they do actually need you; they'll fork the cash.

throw8383833jj 4y ago

You have to ask for money. Not only is it good for you, it's excellent validation for your product. If no one is willing to pay for your product then it means you need to go back to the drawing board. If they are willing to pay for it great.

flying_colours 4y ago
Yeee I'm trying - I'm chatting with like people on our services since it's part of a startup. The issue I have is going from discussing about the project and how we can do it, to the money step. Like say we make X 50% more efficient, we expect to get paid the full 50% efficiency since its now 50% more efficient forever. The Q is how do I bridge the gap to ask them to pay.
- all2 4y ago
  > The Q is how do I bridge the gap to ask them to pay. "All right, you've seen what we can do. Let's talk money."
  - _puk 4y ago
    You can even do it bashfully.. "I hate this bit, but just so there's no misunderstandings down the line, let's talk money"
    - flying_colours 4y ago
      Hmmm I was thinking of maybe "So, do you currently have a budget?" then chat away
- prox 4y ago
  You have cost and a profit margin. Talking about doing business is just that. “Let’s talk business” is a great sentence and tells the other party there’s going to be a quid pro quo. And don’t undervalue yourself, find out the equivalent prices in your area or what figure out what brings a profit and set that bar. A 50% efficiency increase could add value to your customer, why not make it an premium product/subscription/version? So keep your old clients on the base version for instance, or offer them the premium.
  - flying_colours 4y ago
    Yee wwas thinking about monthyl recurring models not sure yet though how I can "lock them in" the issue is I can't "delete" the code :(
    - prox 4y ago
      Don’t think of it as locking them in, think of it as value you are already providing. Business models change all the time, rebrand and re-engage if you can.
__john 4y ago
This 100%, used to have the same problem as OP. They want you to work on their startup start talking about compensation, that'll sort things out real quick.

EddieDante 4y ago

> Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. Never ask for pay. Demand it, and refuse to work until you've been paid. There are four words you need to learn to speak without fear, and shout if necessary. Anybody who has seen GoodFellas knows what they are. The four magic words are... FUCK YOU. PAY ME. Clip from GoodFellas: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48> Also, you need to watch Mark Monteiro's lecture, "Fuck You, Pay me" at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U>. My employers can always rely on me. But they gotta come up with my money every week. Payroll company fucked up? FUCK YOU. PAY ME. The client didn't pay you? FUCK YOU. PAY ME. It's an emergency and you want me to work late? FUCK YOU. PAY ME TIME AND A HALF FOR OVERTIME.

flying_colours 4y ago
Oh first comment thanks!!!!!!! :))) Super duper appreciate it :)) YYeee I'm watching the 2nd video now :)
- edko 4y ago
  The "FUCK YOU" part you don't need. The "PAY ME" part is great advice.
  - IntrepidWorm 4y ago
    Right - work on the wording, but absolutely keep the sentiment. You are clearly valuable to the people using your skills for their own profit. You deserve compensation and respect for the time and effort you put in. Regardless of how well intentioned they seem, be incredibly insistent on payment for your work. Ideally, negotiate pay before any work is done. If they resist this, you need to walk away.
    - flying_colours 4y ago
      Ye I agree on walking away - I'm gonna try doing this to future people. If I find they just want stuff for free, I'll just try cut to the chase.

odshoifsdhfs 4y ago

I would recommend reading: https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 You can ignore the women part, but the author touches on some of the reasons people act like you act and how to change.

flying_colours 4y ago
Oh I'll check the book out :)) Thanks a lot :))
qgin 4y ago
Came here to recommend the same thing. The core concept of the book is figuring out what you want/need and finding ways to actively work with others to get what you both want/need. It doesn’t mean you can’t help people without advancing your own agenda… but it does mean that if you do choose to help people for nothing in return, you’re doing it because you truly want to and honestly do not expect anything in return. The difficulty comes when people view the world as having some kind of universal ledger, where if they give enough, they will be owed things (by the other person or the universe in general) in return. This is where resentment comes from. It’s a great book that has helped me greatly. (Don’t be put off by the title, which might make you think it’s somehow related to incel/redpill culture. It’s not. This is actually the book they should be reading instead of all their cynical takes on the world.)
- flying_colours 4y ago
  Ohhh np on the book title :)) That kinda reminds me of the Giver / Taker / Matcher types. Like I don't mind giving, but it depends on what the person does with my help. If it's for profit generation, that's really not nice. But again - I'll read the book :))

g8oz 4y ago

"I don't have the bandwidth for unpaid work at this point, sorry"

flying_colours 4y ago
loll!!

scrollbar 4y ago

It sounds like you’re saying: all I need to do is stop, but I can’t! Meaning you are in your own way. If you have positive cash flow right now I’d recommend finding a therapist, since personality changes like this can take some deep digging. Personally I have found experiential therapy useful, things like EMDR, process work, gestalt, or even jungian dream analysis. Many on HN speak positively about cognitive therapy like CBT. You will need to spend a little time exploring and may not find the right fit with your first therapist. Good luck!

flying_colours 4y ago
Hmm on therapy - I most likely have ADD but I'm not 100% sure. I tend to not concentrate very well. I do know people have said I'm enthusiastic, loud, hyper, sometimes even on drugs (but I'm 100% not). I'm happy my family and friends, and well HN family is supportive so thats nice :)
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Therapy isn’t really about diagnosing things like ADD. Therapists can’t prescribe drugs, etc. Therapy is good for helping understand why we do things we don’t think we want to do. I.e. it’s possible you’re not actually being “used” and that’s just a framing you’ve created to manage other feelings around usefulness + your own value. Or conversely you ARE being used, but you don’t want to stop because it provides something, some feeling, that you do want. (I’m not actually suggesting those specific things apply to you - those are just made up examples) I’ve found therapy really really helpful in terms of decoding motivations I wasn’t consciously aware of. Would highly recommend!
  - flying_colours 4y ago
    True I'll consider therapy :)) Nah definitely the latter - my parents and siblings keep telling me about my situations since it happened already like 20 times.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  FWIW, diagnosing and treating mental illnesses only partially overlaps with therapy. It's also useful for help with emotional/mental/social things in your life you just have trouble with — in your case, setting boundaries. A psychiatrist prescribes medication; a therapist is more of a confidante and a coach. Whether you have ADD or not, there's no shame in employing someone to help you be a better you!

wccrawford 4y ago

I agree with another comment that you should demand to be paid, rather than ask. But just telling someone to say "Fuck you. Pay me." doesn't actually answer the question. If I were in that situation, and someone asked me to help with something that I didn't want to do for free, I'd tell them my rates. "I need help setting up my WIFI. Can you help with that?" "Sure. I charge $50/hr for tech work." They're going to look shocked, upset, and probably angry. That's okay, because they were trying to use you and failed. Then they're going to pull the, "I thought we were friends" or "You won't help a friend?" card. Tell them that you've got a lot going on in your life and are having to prioritize things. Tell them maintaining work-life balance has been hard, and you're trying to fix it because you've been overworking for quite a long time. When all of that starts to make you feel guilty, ask yourself: "When was the last time they helped me with something they could do that I couldn't?" If the answer is "last week" or "a lot", maybe you should actually help them. But when the answer is "I can't remember" or "never" (and it usually will be), you can just stop feeling guilty. They're just using you. And it's okay to just say "No, sorry, I can't help with that." When people ask me to set up their wifi now, I just refuse. That's a huge pit of pain because they'll ask you back to help with every stupid thing they don't want to understand. I just flat refuse now for anyone other than very close friends and family. And I've got some family I'd tell "No", too.

obituary_latte 4y ago
This is great advice. Also can help to deflect "so and so computer shop does a good job with that sort of thing" if you don't want the work/don't have time/etc.
- flying_colours 4y ago
  YESS! I'll deflect next time as well!! Hmmm the issue though is sometimes even I don't know who to ask. Most of my helps are like for software coding stuff
  - nittanymount 4y ago
    one time, I got into similar situation to help others (not many as yours). I guess, there are two type of soft rejections you could do. "I don't know how to do it", or "I have no time recently". wonder if you feel bad if you say you don't know? no need to be keep an image of being a hero all time... :-)

matwood 4y ago

An older friend gave me great advice one time from his experiences. You need a contract that sets expectations when doing any type of work, doubly so when it's for your friends. Of course if you're just answering questions here and there (like I'm doing here for you on HN), IMO that's what friends help friends do. But, when it comes to really doing work for someone, you have to be compensated. And like I said above, you have to be explicit about the compensation. Otherwise you learn the lesson the hard way like my friend did where he lost a bunch of friends b/c of a startup where assumptions were made and things went south.

flying_colours 4y ago
Yee more than happy to help friends :)) They feel guilty asking so that's fine. Some get annoying, so that's when I know they're using me. The worst is when I answer their Qs, help them, then they ghost me. I'm really confused. Even a nice thank you would suffice.

havblue 4y ago

Why do you even feel compelled to respond to so many people if all they're doing is asking for free help?

flying_colours 4y ago
Well not all for free. It depends. I can't detect it yet, but the "good" people first talk about payment before I even mention it.

Terry_Roll 4y ago

I know this is easier said than done because this is when you find out who genuinely cares for you and those who just want to use you, but you need to charge for your time. Explain that you are being taken away from other work which pays, you may well get the Spanish Inquisition over your "customers" and income, you may get sob stories of how hard it is to bring up a family if they have kids, you will get bullied, you will get alot of emotional manipulation and guilt tripping put on you, but you need to become psychopathic over this and insist your time is money and this is what you are charging. The emotional abuse is tough especially when it comes from family and friends but its what you have to do in order to be successful. One of my ex customers, once said to me, "there are no friends in business" and its true, and he had worked dammed hard to build up his business.

flying_colours 4y ago
Agreed on there are no friends in business. Yeee there are some I find who are really nice. I'm already trying, and with somewhat success I'm declining. I just need to fix up my speed of declining. But ye I need to explain how I'm busy with other work that pays me etc.

sys_64738 4y ago

Start mail those invoices for billable hours.

flying_colours 4y ago
Yee some of my friends told me to just mention "what's your budget" then chat billing.

flying_colours 4y ago

Oh my I didn't expect all the comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks so much to the HN Family!!!!!!

kennywinker 4y ago

Consider licensing your hobby projects using the GPL. It’s work done for free, but if people build on that work they have to share what they build

flying_colours 4y ago
Ye it was originally GPL, but I got messaged from some super large company I used to work for to change it to BSD, so I changed it. Anyways the package will get a makeover, so I'm switching to the AGPL 3 licnese - heard that was good for monetisation.

jlg23 4y ago

What worked for me: A radical "no", paired with a pre-paid IT service for parents. My mother now has a trusted guy in her town who'll fix up her IT devices twice a year instead of a son sitting a few thousand miles away and I can honestly say "I don't even do that for my mum!". Only downside: My mother is jealous because as a (retried) medical specialist she cannot just refer the rest of our family to "some guy in your town" ;)

flying_colours 4y ago
lolllll!! Well I don't mind helping my family and friends :)) They rarely ask since, but if they do, they're super nice about it!

vorpalhex 4y ago

> My family have told me I'm stupid You are not stupid, you are well meaning. That doesn't mean the actions here are correct, but as a first step: 1. Do not let anyone insult you. Your time is too valuable to let people simply tear you down. > The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free Open source and teaching individuals are good and correct things to do. 2. Don't let other people set your priorities. You want to mentor with your free time? Do it. > I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? There is a line where if someone is profiting off your effort, you deserve that profit. That line is flexible and personal. I prefer telling people upfront, before we engage, where that line is. I say something like: "I'm happy to give you general and off the cuff advice for free. If you want me to consult, that's $350/hr. Any NDAs or PIAs are $800 to have reviewed - that doesn't mean accepted or signed. Travel is $2,000 a day." Obviously, tune this for the audience. If your broke buddy is building his first app, maybe ask him to deal you in for 5% of his profits instead or something. 3. Your time is valuable. It's ok to charge for it. "Treat yourself like a friend you are helping" Whether it's to me or someone else, don't be shy about reaching out and getting mentoring yourself. Consider getting mentoring from someone with a business focus versus computer focus.

flying_colours 4y ago
THanks!!!!!!!! Yeee I love helping people - I like the suggestion on charging for profits - I definitely need to try that out next time :)) I'll probably write up a contract with explicit mentions of profits. On mentoring - ye I have some nice friends and company founders - they're nice, but I just can't seem to synthesise myself to be better, so hence I'm asking on HN

MikeDelta 4y ago

What do you think is going to happen when you say no or want to be compensated? They might start respecting you and your time more.

flying_colours 4y ago
True - we'll I'm gonna try declining next time
- MikeDelta 4y ago
  Good luck with your journey. You deserve to be respected and happy!

akamaka 4y ago

I think you should ignore some of the negativity around you, like people saying you’re “stupid” or “being used”. If I were rich, I would spend my time doing exactly what you’re doing: having fun working on cool software, with interesting people, and contributing to projects that get used in the real world. And I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about the messy side of handing money and invoices. Of course, we all need to eat, and so you should work on learning how to handle the business side better. It can will be painful and frustrating at times, but some of the other commenters have great suggestions, so I don’t have anything to add. But don’t be negative about what you’ve done so far! It sounds like you’re doing great at the most important parts of the job, which is finding projects and having the skills to pull them off. Like Paul Graham says, it’s easier teach business to coders, than to teach coding to businessmen.

flying_colours 4y ago
Ohh I think it's cause I'e been in some many of these situations so maybe they're telling me to wake up. But ye painful :( I really dislike the charging part :( I'm learning :( Thanks again to the wonderful HN community!

deleted 4y ago

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codegeek 4y ago

Some great advice already. I would also add that you can do "1 free complimentary session" and then charge for rest. That way, you can always help someone the 1st time with a time limit and then if they come to you again, you can let them know that it will be billable. This takes care of the freeloaders while you still get to help someone occasionally for free which you like. Win win. You could start with "Hey I would love to help you and just for full transparency, I am happy to offer this 1st session complimentary but I do charge for subsequent sessions if you will need my help. Does that work for you ?". Then Pause and let them respond. You have made your process clear. Now it is upto them to accept or reject. If they say Yes sure, then next time you know that you are not doing work for them without a proposal/invoice upfront.

what-imright 4y ago
That’s great advice, you want them to know you have a valuable service to offer, but unfortunately, so many people want it you just don’t have the time…. slight pause… correct answer is “well what would make it worth your time?” wrong answer; anything else, then ghost them
flying_colours 4y ago

paxys 4y ago

The first step is to decide what you really want. From your writeup you are both happy and unhappy. You want to help people for free but you also want payment and credit. You think you are being taken advantage of but also don't want to say no. You really can't have it both ways. Pick a side, and commit to it. And after that stop caring about what others think of your choice.

flying_colours 4y ago
Ye I'm on a seesaw still :(. I'm happy to help, but only if I want to. On stuff I don't, then I need to flatout learn to make them pay for my time.

mgarfias 4y ago

Learn from Nancy Reagan: Just say no.

flying_colours 4y ago
Ye I'm gonna say no next time if I see they dont wanna pay.

609venezia 4y ago

Stanford GSB has a Prof you need to read, starting with https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workplaces-and-careers-one-truth-at-a-time/ https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workpl... Then https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/power-why-some-people-have-it-and-others-dont/ https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/power-why-some-people-have-... If you read and do, it will help you shift your theoretical understanding of power and apply it to the workplace The good news is, you're in demand, so you have a good place to start!

flying_colours 4y ago
OOO thanks!!!!! I'll defs read both :))) Thanks for the kind words as well :)

zander312 4y ago

I’m confused is this an open source project you are maintaining? If so, companies asking for help is a wonderful way to start milking some $$$.

flying_colours 4y ago
Partially. A big issue is cause its open source, they feel like I should give it away fro free.

forinti 4y ago

A friend taught me a valuable lesson: never say no, just put a price on it that would make it feel worthwhile to you. This means you will have to think about your time and also people won't take advantage of you just because you don't charge.

flying_colours 4y ago
Agreed on pricing - I'm gonna try everyone's suggestions when I next chat to people.

iamben 4y ago

Ask for money. It's really hard, I've been there. You want to help people, it's nice helping them, you feel validated doing it. But in the longer term you end up feeling like you do now. It's harder when you have a product, especially if you start offering that for free, because very few people value free things. The (kind of) flip side to this - get better at sales. It feels really icky and embarrassing at first, but learn to sell yourself and your product with a value attached it. If you're not happy doing it (for free or for money) learn to say 'no, sorry'. When people are paying, learn the phrase "that's out of scope for this project". Honestly, it's really hard, but you get better with practice. For the teaching part - a friend gave me a really useful tip. Give them a massive task first, something like - "read this book, it's $17 on Amazon, we'll talk it through after, then I can give you some lessons." It very, very quickly separates the people who will actually do stuff, care, work on their own and you'll want to work with, from those who are just dipping in and will suck your time.

flying_colours 4y ago
GREAT idea on the teaching part!!!!! I don't mind teaching in general, but I love the idea of asking them first to pay for a book or something before teaching starts!!!

outime 4y ago

This happened to me when I was a teenager because I was interested in computer stuff from an early age and so people would see me as a free resource until I decided to charge them except to my very close family and actual best couple friends (who always wanted to pay me and I had to end up accepting couple beers in exchange anyway). It all comes down to learning how to say no (in other words, setting boundaries) and only sacrifice your time for the people who deserve it. You don’t owe anything to most and if they stop talking to you because you didn’t want to work for free for them then they aren’t worth keeping around IMHO. There’s nothing wrong about shedding people if they’re only giving you trouble even if you’ve known them for years so don’t be afraid to do so.

flying_colours 4y ago
Yeess! Same with my "good" friends! If I do help, they always insist and insist and nag they need to repay me through any means. My friends are fine. The issue is interacting with strangers :(

feifan 4y ago

Everyone's saying to ask for money … which is fine, but also don't forget to be human and make/keep friends. If someone's asking for a little bit of help and you're feeling up for it, by all means help them (and don't feel like you have to bill for the help to avoid being used). If you're not feeling up for it, you can decline ("sorry, I'm busy/I can't fit this into my head right now"). If it's a bigger ask (e.g. traveling to them for a longer engagement), then yes absolutely agree on compensation ahead of time.

flying_colours 4y ago
Nahhh I'm super down to help. General help is fine. I block out Fridays for general help - copying Adam Grant's friday blocking method for givers. But I get sad when they expect me to help them more and more and more and more. Projects can take days and weeks and months.
- feifan 4y ago
  IMO it's perfectly fine to start helping on a bounded part of a bigger project, but then decline to help on further asks/scope-creep.

midnightmonster 4y ago

If you had a friend who frequently spends their own money and time to help other people, those other people take credit for their work, they don't get paid, and they feel guilty if they ever resist doing these things, but they don't feel good about how they spend their time and they're feeling used-- - do you think your friend is obligated to keep acting this way? - what beliefs would you guess your friend has that guide their behavior? - what beliefs would you encourage them to adopt instead?

flying_colours 4y ago
Well I don't consider those people my friends anymore. I don't think they ever feel guilty thats the issue. Even when I'm near them and they probably can see me, they tout it as theirs. Hmm I doubt I can change them - I'm not gonna be friends with them - they still havent said thank you after ghosting me after 2 years.

jka 4y ago

If you'd like help with an open source pull request, tech support, or following up on some weird issue (particularly for any Python-based applications), let me know. No promises, but I'm glad to take a look for free, since you have provided the same opportunity to others (and I enjoy solving problems). You shouldn't be made to feel bad for helping other people out. And that also doesn't rule out finding a role and environment that pays you fairly for useful work. Good luck!

flying_colours 4y ago
Oh thanks a bunch! :)) Greatly appreciated!! I'll keep you on my remember list :)) But I guess I won't ask you for help most likely since I'm not the type :)) I was already hesitating if I should ask HN about my issues, but seems like everyone here is super nice :)

bee_rider 4y ago

It is fine if teaching people is a hobby you have, something you do for your friends, etc. Other people play videogames or go fishing (both of which can cost money), if you find teaching for free more enjoyable, then have fun with it. I bet it is good for your reputation. But if you aren't getting paid for it, then keep in mind that it is in your "hobby" box. Limit your time investment to an afternoon or something like that. If you want to make a career out of helping people with little projects -- lots of people have made their careers as contractors, right?

flying_colours 4y ago
Ye teaching is fun :)) The issue is when people start asking for "custom" solutions. COntracting hmm - I was hoping to maybe turn our services into a startup though maybe I'm not cut out for it.

what-imright 4y ago

Ok I have your solution right here. Block people who use you and don’t pay. Be nice if they get a hold of you, don’t burn bridges and hurt feelings, just be totally unavailable to someone who didn’t pay for the last “favor”. If they so happen to seek you out, unfortunately, you’re busy for the next 10 days, and even then it’s not for sure. Look - there is something wrong with you. At some point the lesson that you should help others and be kind was indoctrinated into you, probably by your parents, maybe because they knew based on looks you would never get laid and have grandchildren, and so you would have to be kind to have a chance. People exchange their time for money. Everyone does this, that’s how we all eat, so why is your wallet empty?. If you’re paid for a job do it right and proper. If your pay is overlooked, become unreachable. Block them on your phone and email. Just cease to exist. It works. You’ll end up with people who respect you enough not to steal your time - and those people are NOT your friends, even if they’re friendly because they want to use you. As you well know. And that brings me to another point. If you know something isn’t in your interests then why are you doing it? I ask smokers that. Pull on that thread. Good luck, and BTW, your time as a startup founder is worth $1000 per hour. Seriously.

flying_colours 4y ago
Yee I won't burn bridges :)) I still act normally around them :)) Ye parents maybe? Nahh doubt it. My siblings are like totally opposite to me. True - I need to take take a good hard look at my life. Oh thanks!!!!!!

seer 4y ago

A lot of the other posts kinda miss one obvious solution. Yes you can “charge” for your stuff. I’ve learned not to even try doing work stuff for friends - “yeah you probably can’t afford what I’m gonna charge” kinda answer. But if its trivial stuff - setup windows, wifi, help moving house etc. I’m more than happy to help, thats what friends are for. The trick is to _also ask about stuff in return_. I’m terrible at picking clothes, so I ask female friends who’s taste I trust to help me pick stuff for me. Things like that. Asking for help is what builds bonds and friendships, and then whatever they ask of you wouldn’t feel unpleasant. Just don’t do work stuff :-D

flying_colours 4y ago
Oh nahhh thats fine - I do the basic things for free. But I get asked complex things eg: 1. make this algorithm in my code more efficient and faster 2. build an entire artificial intelligence solution for their own startup

randrews 4y ago

Demanding money works, but I think it's a proxy for something else that works equally well: I own a laser cutter. Owning a laser cutter is sort of like the maker equivalent of being "that friend with the truck." I eventually settled on this set of rules: 1. I will cut anything (within reason) that you supply me files for. 2. If you don't know how to make the files, I'll sit with you and teach you how. And those two rules will keep just about everyone from ever using my laser. I even offer to supply material, for small projects, and it doesn't help. It's astounding the excuses people will come up with to avoid spending a couple hours learning how to use a ruler and LibreCAD. Everyone seems to want laser cut stuff, but no one wants to put forth any effort whatsoever to make that happen. So, I recommend that as an option: if you want to get people to pay you for stuff, because you want the money, you can absolutely do that. But if you're like me and don't really care about the money, then instead find a way to filter out the people / requests who aren't serious about it. Require that they put in some effort of their own to make their thing happen, and that that effort be advanced up front before you do your piece. This means you can still help the friends who really value your time, while no longer having that time wasted by the other ones.

flying_colours 4y ago
I agree on filtering people out. Most I try to teach, but really just want the end product, and that's not nice. I'll try next time on filtering thanks!
- randrews 4y ago
  It's what I do because I don't want the money, I want to hang out with friends who share my interests. A couple people have actually taken me up on it; come over with a pizza and we spend an evening cutting things out and it's fun. I'd rather have that than the $20 or whatever the other ones would pay.

josefresco 4y ago

I'd suggest creating a payment structure that's easy to communicate and utilize for multiple style of project. "Yes I'd be happy to help, I charge $100/hour and you can pay a $500 deposit online here: <link>" This will make "asking" for payment easier, and there will be no uncomfortable moment where you need to potentially haggle or negotiate fees and terms.

flying_colours 4y ago
Agreed on payment structures - I'll get it setup ASAP as an easy doc.

tremon 4y ago

It depends on the friends of course, but I usually invite myself over for dinner, then fix their issues afterwards. For others, I usually send them a bill of materials, with the strong implication that those costs are theirs to pay. Or I do both. Others have already mentioned it, but for companies, the first response should probably be mentioning your hourly rate: "Sure, I usually work for €80/hour, let's setup a meeting to discuss what you need done". Such pre-sales meetings (including travel costs) are usually at your own expense, so you need to factor those in to your hourly rates. Teaching can actually be a good starting point as well, both for network building and to assess their skills should you need them in the future. Still, remember that good teachers don't solve their students' problems for them: they only give pointers and explain concepts. If they ask you to do their work for them, you can turn it around and confront them with it: "I thought you wanted to learn? Of course, I can do it for you as well, but in that case I'll need to charge X/hour".

flying_colours 4y ago
I LIKE that as well!!! Essetially turn the question on its head and ask them instead!!! I'll have to make it not sound sarcastic though. Ye I'll factor in travel next time

nonrandomstring 4y ago

Stop trying to be liked. You already know you are a valuable, smart person. You don't need to prove that to other people any more. Figure out what it is you are really trying to do with your talents. It may be that money is not actually your principle motive. All the same, it doesn't hurt to put a dollar value on an hour of your time. Saying "I am sixty bucks an hour" (or whatever works in your world) gives you a solid forward operating position.

flying_colours 4y ago
Thanks :)) Hmmm true - I need to think more. Especially on pricing - depending on what needs to be done, I guess I'll charge differently. But ye I agree I should stop appeasing to others and reflect on what I want.

leke 4y ago

This came up in my subscription feed. I think it's just what you are looking for. How to say no: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwzPJhutVaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwzPJhutVaY If you want to do the thing, but for compensation or some other condition, there is also yes, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaClwd0W5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaClwd0W5w Or yes, and...these are my rates. For example.

flying_colours 4y ago
I'll defs watch them!! Thanks!! Hmm I just need to learn to be "smooth" in the transition from project chatting to talking about fees

johndoe74 4y ago

First rule, no one values anything that didn't cost them something. You're being taken advantage of because even though they may want your time, knowledge and experience it isn't worth anything more than free to them. I've been a consultant for over 20yrs and run into this with current and past customers alike. I've even been asked to bogus interviews just to be asked questions to problems they're trying to solve. I handle this by plainly stating my value and bill rates up front letting them know my time and experience is valuable. While I usually entertain a certain level of discussion I'll typically ask more questions of them about what they're trying to solve rather than just answering their questions or giving away solutions. If they need more of my time or assistance I say I'm happy to help, let them know my availability and will offer to draft a statement of work if they want to proceed. This will weed out those looking for a free ride from those who respect you and take you seriously. If you're already working for a customer and they ask for your help in a totally separate area, same thing applies offer simple advice if asked, but if it becomes additional work they task you with ask for a change scope to the current statement of work and adjust your rates or hours accordingly and set proper expectations for delivery of current and new scope. Best of luck.

flying_colours 4y ago
True I agree since I didn't charge, they don't value it oh well :(( I like the asking them more Qs point! I'm gonna try this next time!!!!! I'll keep my mouth tight lipped on solutions (if I can!!!) Ok ok agreed on the statement of work thingo - i have some dumb contracts but seems like I might have to include more specific expectations and stuff

GeorgeTirebiter 4y ago

My mother always said I was "too nice". I never thought of it that way. It was like, I can help somebody, so I should -- no skin off my nose. But you found where that leads: to 'infinite' helping people, with no expected 'reward' except you having helped another. I believe this mindset is 'injected' (programmed) at a young age; maybe you are an older sibling, and had to help with the youngsters. Maybe some other family members needed you to do things. I'm only saying we are taught to behave this way, unconsciously, by circumstances of our childhoods. For this reason (the behavior partly defines who 'we' are), wanting to 'be different' means changing who we are, as a person. We have to put that part that is no longer serving us ('help others, always') to rest, and replace it with a better belief that supports us now. Because the 'programming' that results in this behavior is likely pretty solid, I agree with another response here that therapy would be worth considering. For me, I've decided it's better to get beat in some deal from time to time, if it allows me to retain the fiction that 'all people are nice to me, and I will be nice to them'. But I am often re-evaluating even this, because, heck, even Wayne Dyer mentioned it's hard to please more than half the folks - so just accept that. I applaud you for your awareness of this issue, and I would appreciate if you could post again next year on how you've dealt with this problem. Good Luck.

flying_colours 4y ago
Thanks!!!!!!!! Yee I don't wanna change myself too much - I just can't bring myself to doing it - but I'm trying!!!! But ye will consider more expert help as well :))) Thanks will do!! I'll keep people posted!!!

flying_colours 4y ago

PS thanks so much to everyone here! I'm the type to respond to everyone's replies so apologies if I didn't - again thanks so much for all the wonderful help!

silicon2401 4y ago

> Like I don't wanna reject them You need to learn how to reject them > if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. You need to learn how to state your fee. The overall solution you're looking for is: how to be disagreeable. It doesn't sound like you're stupid at all, it just sounds like you're a doormat and overly agreeable. There's nothing wrong with saying "sorry, I can't help you with that" or "I can do that for you if you pay me $X". It's literally that simple. The hard part is practicing it until it becomes easy.

flying_colours 4y ago
Ye I do know I'm extremely agreeable. I did watch Peterson's video on training to be more disagreeable.

juancn 4y ago

There's a saying "Never do for free something you're good at". If you're good at it, you're on the top performers, so you're scarce by definition, hence, valuable. Also, some people tend to unconsciously feel that if you enjoy doing something it's not valuable (it may be an unintended consequence of valuing hard work: if you enjoy it, it's not hard work, so it's not valuable, idk). This is a mindset, and I think you're starting to understand that it's not conductive to economic success and happiness. Sometimes what you get is not pay as in money, you may be owed a favor, networked into some area you didn't have access before (i.e. the first one is free) or are just consciously doing it as a "donation" if you like for some good cause. But it still has value. Sometimes what it helps is thinking about cost, not just actual cost (driving, wear and tear of tools, etc.), but think about opportunity cost: what could you have done with that time? Is it worth it to spend time on that? Keep your priorities straight, what are your goals? Does doing this gets you closer or further away? Sometimes even if they're willing to pay you, you may not want to do it, because money alone won't get you closer to your goals. Once you start changing your mindset, saying 'no' starts becoming easier and you're better prepared to decide wether you should do something or not. What would make it worth your while, and it becomes clear what you should demand for it.

slipwalker 4y ago

my 2cents: when you feel you are being used, and don't feel you have the disposition to confront your abuser, just start making (intentional) mistakes. If your "mistakes" cause enough trouble to the abuser, (s)he will leave you alone. it's even fun to watch them suffering.

flying_colours 4y ago
Yikes I guess thats one approach lolL!!

thefz 4y ago

> I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do? > Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. My suggestion is: you think it will be painful to say no, but: just don't do what they ask. I really really put a lot of thought into this during years, and usually the best thing you can do is to put a small condition beforehand that will make it a little bit easier for you to help and a little road bump for those asking. 90% of them will back out. This also helps people to understand that there's WORK involved and you do not just clap your hands and solve things. Let them do a piece of that work. As an example, you need your laptop fixed? Just ask them to make a full backup of their hard drive because if something goes wrong they might lose all their files. Or make an excuse, someone blamed you for losing their files once and now you don't want the responsibility and ask everyone to demonstrate they have a mirror copy of their drive. People need WiFi set up? Ask them to have ready all the ISP data they need like subscription # in case you need to call, WiFi password if given, and so on. Some of them will figure it out by themselves once they have all the data. If you let them, people will grind you down without even realizing it. Or they do, and don't care.

billybuckwheat 4y ago

There's a fine line between pitching in to help someone and working for them for nothing. Sounds, as many people have pointed out, that you're on the wrong side of that line. The next time you're asked to help, ask them where you send the invoice. Or lay out some terms of engagement - what you will and won't do, how many hours you'll work, the hourly fee you're expecting, payment terms, and reasonable travel expenses (if any travel is involved). Yes, that will probably turn a lot of people away, but if they're making money from your time and effort shouldn't you?

dontbenebby 4y ago

I had the same feeling -- have you considered emigrating to a lower cost of living area? I'm looking into my Italian passport, I might move to Sicily, or bounce around SE Asia. I've had my work literally go into whitepapers uncited, and folks simply refuse to answer my emails about the issue, so the plan is absent one of the places I'm talking to now hiring me, to just... leave. To emigrate. (But maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow.)

flying_colours 4y ago
Oh mm never actually considered this!

nannePOPI 4y ago

WelcomeShorty 4y ago

Old man here, and I read the threat, ignored it, went for lunch but I could not stop thinking about your question... Dude, look at your responses here in this threat. You have said YES to each and every proposal. You have assigned yourself at least 20 hours of work, how is that going to fit into your tight schedule? You know it: it will not. Just read back your own answers and you will see what your problem is. It might even lead you to the "you specific" answer. I mean this very positive.

flying_colours 4y ago
I guess I just wanted to thank the people who replied :)) But I do agree I have issues - as you said I've replied yes yes yes I'll try oh well :(

flying_colours 4y ago

PS to everyone - thanks to everyone here! Someone asked me for help today, and following a plethora of suggestions, I SUCCESSFULLY asked them for payment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel so accomplished!! I started asking THEM questions about their project, what they wanted. I then asked them about their budget, their proposed use case of whatever software they're building, and crept in talks on compenstation etc - ie I mentioned how I had my own startup, and I can't help too much etc. They're offering a reasonable 15% equity in their venture + wages!!!! As suggested by people here, I'm gonna get this all in writing, do nothing on the job until its written, and add clauses on late payments, etc! I couldn't respond to everyone here - but I wanna say - THANK YOU! Big THANKS!! I think I grew the most today in like 2 years :))))))

foxes 4y ago

Lmao at the unhinged comments so far > Turn everything into a transaction! > Make them pay! > Make them immediately do something for you in exchange! It makes me think no one in this thread has actual friends. Friendship is still mutual, its okay to say no you are busy, or you need space. Good friends can communicate their feelings. Friends can do things for you, and it doesn't have to always be material. Putting aside time for you can be friendship.

csomar 4y ago

> I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. Is that Open Source GPL/MIT? You define the license. > The worse is when they advertise that they did it. Why do you care? > I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? Yikes I feel so dumb. I don't get it. You traveled to some company at your own expense to solve a problem to them? > I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do? Define your friends. You'll likely find out you have 1-3 actual friends and the rest are just people you happen to know. Also define the members of your family you are obligated/responsible to help. For everybody else, just ignore the requests and they'll stop asking. > Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great. Don't ask "friends" to pay. They don't have the budget. Do ask companies to pay beforehand; however. Don't worry, if they do actually need you; they'll fork the cash.