6 ms·

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also nee

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.

pmoriarty 4y ago
This reminds me of a comic strip I saw during Obama's term, when he was hailed as a great compromiser. It showed Obama standing opposite a Republican, and the Republican saying: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you." So Obama takes a step towards the Republican, who doesn't move and just says again: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you."
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  AKA shifting the Overton Window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
  - moistly 4y ago
    Alas, the young do not recognize how very far the window has shifted, because they weren’t around twenty, thirty, forty years ago.
dathinab 4y ago
but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingness to commit violence etc.)
- mostertoaster 4y ago
  You should probably read some different news sources. The right hasn’t changed much other than they care less about religion/morality than before. I’d say leftists tend to be more authoritarian and less liberal in general than the right. Though the right is also full of the authoritarians who just want it for their side. What the political leaders love is when all the problems are because of the other side. Two wings one bird though.
  - archagon 4y ago
    BS. I have never seen anything like Trump’s attempt to “find” votes and install his own electors, with most of the party (implicitly or explicitly) standing behind him, in my political life.
- Auracle 4y ago
  > but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. There are some things where we're more right than Europe because Republicans or our constitution won't allow it, but that doesn't mean the American left isn't overwhelmingly quite far left. And quite frankly, if you're comparing Republicans to Hitler you're too far left yourself to have a balanced perspective. You could just as easily say something like "The way the Democratic party treats white men in recent years is uncannily similar to how Hitler treated Jews..." Both are ridiculous statements.
  - dathinab 4y ago
    > Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which are also quite far right. > Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries Progressive is not the same as left/right. I'm not sure a tax system can be left/right at all. But if we look at the usage of taxes than it's a very clear no. > but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." No, not at all. Through sadly that is the case for huge parts of the word. > The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. The US (and EU) are a major (but not the only) drivers behind the conflicts leading to the refuges...
    - PraetorianGourd 4y ago
      > The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context I will let you in on a little secret. The right doesn't actually want to ban abortions. They need the carrot of banning abortions to turn out voters, and abortion is a very powerful single issue. By this I mean, there are plenty of left-leaning folks who would abandon Bernie if he came out as anti-abortion, and there are plenty on the right who would turn on their candidates if they came out pro-choice. By the same token, the left also needs the right to keep wanting to ban abortions (but failing) so they can turn out the vote. It isn't as binary as it seems.
- NDizzle 4y ago
  "but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree" ?? Drag queen story hour????
  - nomel 4y ago
    In the Bay Area, slavery is taught to kindergartners. People on the left never believe me. I almost cried when my niece said that people like her used own people like her uncle/cousin. What a way to seed racism…
- Siddarth1977 4y ago
  If this is what you believe (and not just rhetoric you're employing to sway people that you know to be untrue) then maybe it's time to take a step back and widen your world view and broaden your sources of information. It's of course always problematic to oversimplify the thousands of different issues and perspectives into simple "left vs right" or "conservative vs liberal" buckets, but overall, it's completely accurate to say that America has moved massively to the left, or alternatively, that liberals have been winning for decades. The right-wing ideals of individual liberty & responsibility, of meritocracy and free choice have been completely obliterated from academia, media and public opinion. The entire narrative is owned and controlled by a left-wing view of race-based collective groups (which would have be class-based in Europe, but American left focuses more on race than class), along with an assumption that luck or privilege is the sole or at least primary driver of inequality. On essentially every issue the left has not just won, but moved the goal posts of debate. You may just not notice it because you either agree with the moves or because which issues get focus aren't the ones you care about. The American left is doing little to solve climate change, pollution, affordability of middle class lifestyle, etc, but that's because they don't "really" care about those issues. They're winning on LGBTQ+, winning on race-based initiatives, winning on government-controlled access to healthcare, winning on federal power expanding and state power receding, winning on narrowing free speech, winning on reducing religious freedoms and winning on government-controlled land use, government-controlled economy, etc. I was a left-wing radical in college. Without really changing my stances since then, I'm now a left-wing radical on only environmental issues but basically a centrist on others and occasionally on issues of free speech or free association it's only the right defending those freedoms.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    > winning on federal power expanding and state power receding, winning on narrowing free speech, winning on reducing religious freedoms With the current supreme court? This is incredible! Federal power has been in decline for a decade (and really since like the 40s/50s with the good exception of incorporation), there's been no reduction in religious freedom in decades, even when it conflicts with civil rights, and free speech remains strongly protected at the federal level, though republican governor's keep trying to change that!
zozbot234 4y ago
Hotelling equilibrium for the win!

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.

pmoriarty 4y ago

This reminds me of a comic strip I saw during Obama's term, when he was hailed as a great compromiser. It showed Obama standing opposite a Republican, and the Republican saying: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you." So Obama takes a step towards the Republican, who doesn't move and just says again: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you."

minsc_and_boo 4y ago
AKA shifting the Overton Window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
- moistly 4y ago
  Alas, the young do not recognize how very far the window has shifted, because they weren’t around twenty, thirty, forty years ago.

dathinab 4y ago

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingness to commit violence etc.)

mostertoaster 4y ago
You should probably read some different news sources. The right hasn’t changed much other than they care less about religion/morality than before. I’d say leftists tend to be more authoritarian and less liberal in general than the right. Though the right is also full of the authoritarians who just want it for their side. What the political leaders love is when all the problems are because of the other side. Two wings one bird though.
- archagon 4y ago
  BS. I have never seen anything like Trump’s attempt to “find” votes and install his own electors, with most of the party (implicitly or explicitly) standing behind him, in my political life.
Auracle 4y ago
> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. There are some things where we're more right than Europe because Republicans or our constitution won't allow it, but that doesn't mean the American left isn't overwhelmingly quite far left. And quite frankly, if you're comparing Republicans to Hitler you're too far left yourself to have a balanced perspective. You could just as easily say something like "The way the Democratic party treats white men in recent years is uncannily similar to how Hitler treated Jews..." Both are ridiculous statements.
- dathinab 4y ago
  > Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which are also quite far right. > Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries Progressive is not the same as left/right. I'm not sure a tax system can be left/right at all. But if we look at the usage of taxes than it's a very clear no. > but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." No, not at all. Through sadly that is the case for huge parts of the word. > The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. The US (and EU) are a major (but not the only) drivers behind the conflicts leading to the refuges...
  - PraetorianGourd 4y ago
    > The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context I will let you in on a little secret. The right doesn't actually want to ban abortions. They need the carrot of banning abortions to turn out voters, and abortion is a very powerful single issue. By this I mean, there are plenty of left-leaning folks who would abandon Bernie if he came out as anti-abortion, and there are plenty on the right who would turn on their candidates if they came out pro-choice. By the same token, the left also needs the right to keep wanting to ban abortions (but failing) so they can turn out the vote. It isn't as binary as it seems.
NDizzle 4y ago
"but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree" ?? Drag queen story hour????
- nomel 4y ago
  In the Bay Area, slavery is taught to kindergartners. People on the left never believe me. I almost cried when my niece said that people like her used own people like her uncle/cousin. What a way to seed racism…
Siddarth1977 4y ago
If this is what you believe (and not just rhetoric you're employing to sway people that you know to be untrue) then maybe it's time to take a step back and widen your world view and broaden your sources of information. It's of course always problematic to oversimplify the thousands of different issues and perspectives into simple "left vs right" or "conservative vs liberal" buckets, but overall, it's completely accurate to say that America has moved massively to the left, or alternatively, that liberals have been winning for decades. The right-wing ideals of individual liberty & responsibility, of meritocracy and free choice have been completely obliterated from academia, media and public opinion. The entire narrative is owned and controlled by a left-wing view of race-based collective groups (which would have be class-based in Europe, but American left focuses more on race than class), along with an assumption that luck or privilege is the sole or at least primary driver of inequality. On essentially every issue the left has not just won, but moved the goal posts of debate. You may just not notice it because you either agree with the moves or because which issues get focus aren't the ones you care about. The American left is doing little to solve climate change, pollution, affordability of middle class lifestyle, etc, but that's because they don't "really" care about those issues. They're winning on LGBTQ+, winning on race-based initiatives, winning on government-controlled access to healthcare, winning on federal power expanding and state power receding, winning on narrowing free speech, winning on reducing religious freedoms and winning on government-controlled land use, government-controlled economy, etc. I was a left-wing radical in college. Without really changing my stances since then, I'm now a left-wing radical on only environmental issues but basically a centrist on others and occasionally on issues of free speech or free association it's only the right defending those freedoms.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  > winning on federal power expanding and state power receding, winning on narrowing free speech, winning on reducing religious freedoms With the current supreme court? This is incredible! Federal power has been in decline for a decade (and really since like the 40s/50s with the good exception of incorporation), there's been no reduction in religious freedom in decades, even when it conflicts with civil rights, and free speech remains strongly protected at the federal level, though republican governor's keep trying to change that!

zozbot234 4y ago

Hotelling equilibrium for the win!