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Seems like a huge # of techies I meet out here are trying to reach a million dollars in savings in a job they hate so that they can "go live in a cabin in the w

Seems like a huge # of techies I meet out here are trying to reach a million dollars in savings in a job they hate so that they can "go live in a cabin in the woods." I try to tell them that my Cousin has been doing that for 40 years, and he dropped out of high school and worked at a gas station.

hotpotamus 4y ago
"You don't need a million dollars to do nothin. Take a look at my cousin, he's broke, don't do shit." - Lawrence from Office Space
SenHeng 4y ago
If you absurdly reduce it down to that point then, yes, anyone can live cheaply in a rural area. But that's not the point. Financial independence is about the ability to live a good life without having to worry about next's day food.
- gkop 4y ago
  Agreed. Also there’s an in-between. I think parent’s point is worth reminding us of, because in our consumer-driven economy, there’s no economic incentive to teach people that reducing their consumption may be a reasonable and “happier” alternative to earning more income. (Above a certain line of course)
  - TheCoelacanth 4y ago
    There are a lot of FIRE people who focus on cutting expenses over raising income. I would say it's more common, which is why people invented the term "Fat FIRE" to distinguish people who want to retire early without seriously cutting expenses.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  > Financial independence is about the ability to live a good life without having to worry about next's day food. Worrying about paying for food day to day isn’t why people seek out high-stress, high-pay jobs that are often in expensive cities. If people just want enough financial security to reliably put food on the table there are a million ways to do that without getting a demanding career. The people throwing themselves into demanding jobs and chasing promotions to maximize their salary aren’t doing it just to put food on the table.
  - jmathai 4y ago
    > The people throwing themselves into demanding jobs and chasing promotions to maximize their salary aren’t doing it just to put food on the table. It is in order to put food on the table. Not today but for the next 20 years after you're no longer earning an income. Also, other hobbies that cost money. Early retirement is very expensive. Even if you reduce your expenses. In theory, the higher your income the sooner you can get there. Financial Independence / Early Retirement is not about having a low stress job.
akhmatova 4y ago
It's not about living in a cabin in the woods, or "doing nothing". It's about living on your own terms, or some semblence thereof, and not having to continually put out for people.
lijogdfljk 4y ago
Funny, i'm doing that - sort of, but i just like having a fair amount of space. I still want the same job, good internet, modern features, etc. I just want it on 10 acres so i have minimal neighbors lol. For me it's about recharging. Something about being on computers all day makes me dislike the suburbs. I don't dislike my job, but i really enjoy being in my yard, growing things, the simplicity of maintaining my yard/gardens, etc.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
One of the weirder side effects of the early retirement (FIRE) movement is that it selects for people who value freedom and time away from work and then convince them that they need to work the highest paid job they can find no matter how miserable it makes them right now. A lot of tech companies capitalize on this by offering 20% raises to recruit people and then demand 50-100% more work until they burn out. They can always recruit more people to backfill because 20% (or more) raises are hard to turn down. Not everyone, of course, but this theme plays out far too frequently in FIRE communities.
- yata69420 4y ago
  I'm doing the weird thing you're describing right now! I have a miserable high paying tech job that I would absolutely not do if I wasn't being paid so well. Maybe I'm delusional, but I believe this is my best strategy for buying my freedom. The way I see it, it takes about $3M to bond yourself away from a lifetime of servitude. That much capital would allow me to pay myself a middle class income without any time commitment. The best answer would have been to have rich parents with a large trust fund so I could go pursue my interests without worry. I don't have rich parents, but that doesn't change my requirements. So instead, I'm going about acquiring the funds I need by whatever legal means I can, which in practice means job hopping at tech companies, looking for equity payouts, and buy/borrow/die with companies and funds that I anticipate to be around for 50+ years. Of course, I don't get to have kids with this strategy, but ethically I wouldn't want to birth a child into a life of bondage under capitalism anyway. It happened to me and I'm not particularly keen on how it's going. At $10M+ I may reconsider, but I don't expect to get there in my lifetime.
  - pc86 4y ago
    I don't know how to say this without sounding like an asshole, but why do most people who are all about FIRE talk this way? Am I the only one who doesn't look at working a cushy office job 30-35 hours a week as "a lifetime of servitude?" I'd rather give up some time for a few decade, and enjoy life during that time, and retire earlier than most but later than I could, than be miserable for a decade just to live a lower middle class life without any skills to fall back on (as would certainly be the case if the market drop 50% 8-10 years into your retirement - you're now in your 40s, a decade removed from tech, and you need a job now). How does anyone read fringe nonsense like "ethically I wouldn't want to birth a child into a life of bondage under capitalism" and not roll your eyes hard enough to get RSI?
tiborsaas 4y ago
Yes, but the "cabin" should look like this and should not be more than a 30 min drive from a major city: https://offbeathome.com/snohomish-pyramid-house/ https://offbeathome.com/snohomish-pyramid-house/ https://www.prefabcontainerhomes.org/2020/08/4x45-ft-shipping-container-home-ireland.html https://www.prefabcontainerhomes.org/2020/08/4x45-ft-shippin... https://www.ignant.com/2015/08/11/a-minimal-concrete-house-offering-stunning-views-from-both-sides/ https://www.ignant.com/2015/08/11/a-minimal-concrete-house-o...
johnrob 4y ago
It’s easy to overlook one aspect: because of the skill and work history of the retired techie, they have the option to re-enter the industry and earn higher income if needed. That is a big security blanket.
ryandrake 4y ago
The difference between these "FIRE" techies and your cousin is your cousin has to keep working to live. I guess I fit right into your stereotype: My family's end state is almost certainly in that cabin, away from the insanity of California, the insanity of proximity to the city, the insanity of hustle culture. I have a sign above my office that says "THE GOAL IS TO NOT HAVE TO WORK". If I ever get to the point where the magic 4% draw-down pays for my family to live, I'm considering myself retired that minute! It just so happens that moving to a lower-cost area can dramatically accelerate that time frame.
- pesfandiar 4y ago
  I'm curious about the viability of that 4% draw-down scheme. Does it hold up in a high-inflation, high-interest economy?
  - kingnothing 4y ago
    It has held up in basically every economic situation in the US since the 1920's.
colinmhayes 4y ago
Then you gotta work at a gas station though.

hotpotamus 4y ago

"You don't need a million dollars to do nothin. Take a look at my cousin, he's broke, don't do shit." - Lawrence from Office Space

SenHeng 4y ago

If you absurdly reduce it down to that point then, yes, anyone can live cheaply in a rural area. But that's not the point. Financial independence is about the ability to live a good life without having to worry about next's day food.

gkop 4y ago
Agreed. Also there’s an in-between. I think parent’s point is worth reminding us of, because in our consumer-driven economy, there’s no economic incentive to teach people that reducing their consumption may be a reasonable and “happier” alternative to earning more income. (Above a certain line of course)
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  There are a lot of FIRE people who focus on cutting expenses over raising income. I would say it's more common, which is why people invented the term "Fat FIRE" to distinguish people who want to retire early without seriously cutting expenses.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> Financial independence is about the ability to live a good life without having to worry about next's day food. Worrying about paying for food day to day isn’t why people seek out high-stress, high-pay jobs that are often in expensive cities. If people just want enough financial security to reliably put food on the table there are a million ways to do that without getting a demanding career. The people throwing themselves into demanding jobs and chasing promotions to maximize their salary aren’t doing it just to put food on the table.
- jmathai 4y ago
  > The people throwing themselves into demanding jobs and chasing promotions to maximize their salary aren’t doing it just to put food on the table. It is in order to put food on the table. Not today but for the next 20 years after you're no longer earning an income. Also, other hobbies that cost money. Early retirement is very expensive. Even if you reduce your expenses. In theory, the higher your income the sooner you can get there. Financial Independence / Early Retirement is not about having a low stress job.

akhmatova 4y ago

It's not about living in a cabin in the woods, or "doing nothing". It's about living on your own terms, or some semblence thereof, and not having to continually put out for people.

lijogdfljk 4y ago

Funny, i'm doing that - sort of, but i just like having a fair amount of space. I still want the same job, good internet, modern features, etc. I just want it on 10 acres so i have minimal neighbors lol. For me it's about recharging. Something about being on computers all day makes me dislike the suburbs. I don't dislike my job, but i really enjoy being in my yard, growing things, the simplicity of maintaining my yard/gardens, etc.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

One of the weirder side effects of the early retirement (FIRE) movement is that it selects for people who value freedom and time away from work and then convince them that they need to work the highest paid job they can find no matter how miserable it makes them right now. A lot of tech companies capitalize on this by offering 20% raises to recruit people and then demand 50-100% more work until they burn out. They can always recruit more people to backfill because 20% (or more) raises are hard to turn down. Not everyone, of course, but this theme plays out far too frequently in FIRE communities.

yata69420 4y ago
I'm doing the weird thing you're describing right now! I have a miserable high paying tech job that I would absolutely not do if I wasn't being paid so well. Maybe I'm delusional, but I believe this is my best strategy for buying my freedom. The way I see it, it takes about $3M to bond yourself away from a lifetime of servitude. That much capital would allow me to pay myself a middle class income without any time commitment. The best answer would have been to have rich parents with a large trust fund so I could go pursue my interests without worry. I don't have rich parents, but that doesn't change my requirements. So instead, I'm going about acquiring the funds I need by whatever legal means I can, which in practice means job hopping at tech companies, looking for equity payouts, and buy/borrow/die with companies and funds that I anticipate to be around for 50+ years. Of course, I don't get to have kids with this strategy, but ethically I wouldn't want to birth a child into a life of bondage under capitalism anyway. It happened to me and I'm not particularly keen on how it's going. At $10M+ I may reconsider, but I don't expect to get there in my lifetime.
- pc86 4y ago
  I don't know how to say this without sounding like an asshole, but why do most people who are all about FIRE talk this way? Am I the only one who doesn't look at working a cushy office job 30-35 hours a week as "a lifetime of servitude?" I'd rather give up some time for a few decade, and enjoy life during that time, and retire earlier than most but later than I could, than be miserable for a decade just to live a lower middle class life without any skills to fall back on (as would certainly be the case if the market drop 50% 8-10 years into your retirement - you're now in your 40s, a decade removed from tech, and you need a job now). How does anyone read fringe nonsense like "ethically I wouldn't want to birth a child into a life of bondage under capitalism" and not roll your eyes hard enough to get RSI?

tiborsaas 4y ago

Yes, but the "cabin" should look like this and should not be more than a 30 min drive from a major city: https://offbeathome.com/snohomish-pyramid-house/ https://offbeathome.com/snohomish-pyramid-house/ https://www.prefabcontainerhomes.org/2020/08/4x45-ft-shipping-container-home-ireland.html https://www.prefabcontainerhomes.org/2020/08/4x45-ft-shippin... https://www.ignant.com/2015/08/11/a-minimal-concrete-house-offering-stunning-views-from-both-sides/ https://www.ignant.com/2015/08/11/a-minimal-concrete-house-o...

johnrob 4y ago

It’s easy to overlook one aspect: because of the skill and work history of the retired techie, they have the option to re-enter the industry and earn higher income if needed. That is a big security blanket.

ryandrake 4y ago

The difference between these "FIRE" techies and your cousin is your cousin has to keep working to live. I guess I fit right into your stereotype: My family's end state is almost certainly in that cabin, away from the insanity of California, the insanity of proximity to the city, the insanity of hustle culture. I have a sign above my office that says "THE GOAL IS TO NOT HAVE TO WORK". If I ever get to the point where the magic 4% draw-down pays for my family to live, I'm considering myself retired that minute! It just so happens that moving to a lower-cost area can dramatically accelerate that time frame.

pesfandiar 4y ago
I'm curious about the viability of that 4% draw-down scheme. Does it hold up in a high-inflation, high-interest economy?
- kingnothing 4y ago
  It has held up in basically every economic situation in the US since the 1920's.

colinmhayes 4y ago

Then you gotta work at a gas station though.