4 ms·

This quote from the article could be the motto of progressive cities everywhere, it certainly applies to the ones near me: "...making the citizens of our city

by tharne 4y ago

This quote from the article could be the motto of progressive cities everywhere, it certainly applies to the ones near me: "...making the citizens of our city miserable in service of an ideology that made sense everywhere but in reality"

felixgallo 4y ago
brother, wait until you find out about the gleaming metropolises, noble equity, and high academic standards of the red states.
- tharne 4y ago
  > brother, wait until you find out about the gleaming metropolises, noble equity, and high academic standards of the red states. Brother, wait until you find out that Trumpism and Wokism are not the only ways to run a government.
  - felixgallo 4y ago
    Man, I cannot wait for you to tell me about the major conservative metropolis that does so much better for all of its citizens, and does not suffer under the yoke of Trumpism or whatever 'Wokism' (?!) is. I'm scouring a map and I'm sure I'll find it soon, but maybe you could drop a hint?
    - FredPret 4y ago
      Look outside the USA
      - the_only_law 4y ago
        Saudi Arabia is petty wealthy rn.
      - meroes 4y ago
        I found Dubai did I win?
      - tharne 4y ago
        Or to a different time period for that matter
    - panzagl 4y ago
      Boise Idaho.
    - colpabar 4y ago
      Who even claimed that such a city exists? Saying "I think X is bad" does not mean "I also think everything that isn't X is good"
- bearjaws 4y ago
  Doesn't even have to be a metropolis, look at most red states suburbs and rural area, massive wealth inequality...
  - rhino369 4y ago
    I don't have that stats in front of me, but I'd be surprised if they have more wealth inequity than blue state urban areas. Those are still the places in the country where the middle class can afford a house. But they certainly have drug and poverty problems too.
  - nradov 4y ago
    The highest level of income inequality in the US is in the region around New York City. It's also quite high in the "blue" states of California and Massachusetts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...
    - notacoward 4y ago
      Why did you skip over Louisiana and Mississippi on the way to mention California and Massachusetts?
- chasd00 4y ago
  So what? The topic is San Francisco.
tablespoon 4y ago
> This quote from the article could be the motto of progressive cities everywhere, it certainly applies to the ones near me: > "...making the citizens of our city miserable in service of an ideology that made sense everywhere but in reality" It should be the motto of more than just those cities. I think people often get blinkered by ideologies that are "satisfyingly simple" and fall into a kind of "ideology-X realism" trap, where they confuse the ideological formulations for reality, and so stop paying attention to actual reality. You see the same thing lot with "econ 101" style thinking that omits the rough edges and complexity of reality to make a "free market" ideological program feel silky-smooth and perfect.
- colpabar 4y ago
  Exactly. I think a lot of people ignore the realities of progressive policies, because to them, progressive policy means fighting systemic racism/sexism/etc. It doesn't have to work - all that matters is the intention. And you can't even argue, because then you're just a racist/sexist/etc, because who else would argue against them?
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    There's a whole lot of wishful thinking in that sort of attitude - Progressives used to be pro-eugenics (even explicitly arguing for racially supremacist views) and against gender equity as late as the 1950s. People will say anything to support their preferred ideological stance.
- xtiansimon 4y ago
  I want to push back on your use of the word “ideology” in this context. The original comment and your response seems to react to what some academics call “complex systems”—people and preferences (in this case). If I’m reading this response correctly, there is a charge that simple models are being applied to complex systems. And some peoples don’t like the outcomes. (I have to be careful here myself, making such a simple statement lest I go from the pan into the fire-—I recognize some people who “don’t like outcomes” are fighting for social recognition and civil rights). Back to my point…the definition of ‘ideology’ which I find useful comes from Peter Sloterdijk's 1983 book, “Critique of Cynical Reason” where he explored the rationale of cynicism and social discontent. Sloterdijk describes the difficulty of an argument with someone intent on lying to you. Take that a step further. Its an order of magnitude more difficult to find agreement with someone who has a false belief (ie. a witness to an event who has a false belief because of a unconscious bias). Finally, he defines “ideology” as an personal and internal idea—unexpressed—of how the world works. In the above example of a queer woman of color objecting to the appointment of a queer white person, that’s not an internal and unexpressed personal belief driving their argument. Her argument is right there in the open. The first one is impossible problem and the second one is a complex problem. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system [2]: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Critique_of_Cynical_Reason/wDNyQgAACAAJ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Critique_of_Cynical_Rea...
unethical_ban 4y ago
Using wokism and progressivism interchangably, as you do in other comments, is a mistake. You also agree with other people down the thread to "look outside the US". Well, there are cities and countries with real progressive ideals that are operating quite well for their citizens. I believe reforms to better care for the homeless and the addicted, to provide better social safety nets, requires a host of changes and may need to be done at a scale higher than a city. That all said, it does seem SF has fucked up in ways that need backed out or tried a different way.
rob74 4y ago
The quote that stuck with me is: "But people addicted to drugs come from all over the country in part for the services San Francisco provides." So, because other cities are tough on drugs (including the famous "three strikes" laws where you can receive a life sentence if you get caught with drugs three times), and San Francisco treats drug addicts more humanely, drug addicts from all over the US tend to migrate to San Francisco. Making the citizens of the city miserable. Hmmm...
- areyousure 4y ago
  In case anyone is curious, California is one of the (majority of) states with three strike laws: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114301025 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114301... (But within the state, San Francisco County is indeed perhaps the laxest with regards to sentencing.)
  - cudgy 4y ago
    Three strikes was part of a Clinton led crime bill passed in the 90’s by a tough on crime Democratic Party. Supported enthusiastically by Republicans as well of course — a “team effort”.
- gunshai 4y ago
  I am not this far into the article yet, but here is something that has always stuck with me written by the guardian about bussing. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/... The article was written back in ~2016~(the end of 2017),it really needs to be revisited, but the sentiment of "go to where there are services for your problem" does indeed exist.
- cudgy 4y ago
  Leaving mentally insane (temporarily due to drug use or permanently) people to rot on the street next to a trailer with showers, sack lunches, and an endless supply of clean needles is more humane than placing them in custody with a slim possibility of getting sober? Not everyone is able to ask for help; sometimes there needs to be an intervention.

by tharne 4y ago

felixgallo 4y ago

brother, wait until you find out about the gleaming metropolises, noble equity, and high academic standards of the red states.

tharne 4y ago
> brother, wait until you find out about the gleaming metropolises, noble equity, and high academic standards of the red states. Brother, wait until you find out that Trumpism and Wokism are not the only ways to run a government.
- felixgallo 4y ago
  Man, I cannot wait for you to tell me about the major conservative metropolis that does so much better for all of its citizens, and does not suffer under the yoke of Trumpism or whatever 'Wokism' (?!) is. I'm scouring a map and I'm sure I'll find it soon, but maybe you could drop a hint?
  - FredPret 4y ago
    Look outside the USA
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      Saudi Arabia is petty wealthy rn.
    - meroes 4y ago
      I found Dubai did I win?
    - tharne 4y ago
      Or to a different time period for that matter
  - panzagl 4y ago
    Boise Idaho.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    Who even claimed that such a city exists? Saying "I think X is bad" does not mean "I also think everything that isn't X is good"
bearjaws 4y ago
Doesn't even have to be a metropolis, look at most red states suburbs and rural area, massive wealth inequality...
- rhino369 4y ago
  I don't have that stats in front of me, but I'd be surprised if they have more wealth inequity than blue state urban areas. Those are still the places in the country where the middle class can afford a house. But they certainly have drug and poverty problems too.
- nradov 4y ago
  The highest level of income inequality in the US is in the region around New York City. It's also quite high in the "blue" states of California and Massachusetts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...
  - notacoward 4y ago
    Why did you skip over Louisiana and Mississippi on the way to mention California and Massachusetts?
chasd00 4y ago
So what? The topic is San Francisco.

tablespoon 4y ago

> This quote from the article could be the motto of progressive cities everywhere, it certainly applies to the ones near me: > "...making the citizens of our city miserable in service of an ideology that made sense everywhere but in reality" It should be the motto of more than just those cities. I think people often get blinkered by ideologies that are "satisfyingly simple" and fall into a kind of "ideology-X realism" trap, where they confuse the ideological formulations for reality, and so stop paying attention to actual reality. You see the same thing lot with "econ 101" style thinking that omits the rough edges and complexity of reality to make a "free market" ideological program feel silky-smooth and perfect.

colpabar 4y ago
Exactly. I think a lot of people ignore the realities of progressive policies, because to them, progressive policy means fighting systemic racism/sexism/etc. It doesn't have to work - all that matters is the intention. And you can't even argue, because then you're just a racist/sexist/etc, because who else would argue against them?
- zozbot234 4y ago
  There's a whole lot of wishful thinking in that sort of attitude - Progressives used to be pro-eugenics (even explicitly arguing for racially supremacist views) and against gender equity as late as the 1950s. People will say anything to support their preferred ideological stance.
xtiansimon 4y ago
I want to push back on your use of the word “ideology” in this context. The original comment and your response seems to react to what some academics call “complex systems”—people and preferences (in this case). If I’m reading this response correctly, there is a charge that simple models are being applied to complex systems. And some peoples don’t like the outcomes. (I have to be careful here myself, making such a simple statement lest I go from the pan into the fire-—I recognize some people who “don’t like outcomes” are fighting for social recognition and civil rights). Back to my point…the definition of ‘ideology’ which I find useful comes from Peter Sloterdijk's 1983 book, “Critique of Cynical Reason” where he explored the rationale of cynicism and social discontent. Sloterdijk describes the difficulty of an argument with someone intent on lying to you. Take that a step further. Its an order of magnitude more difficult to find agreement with someone who has a false belief (ie. a witness to an event who has a false belief because of a unconscious bias). Finally, he defines “ideology” as an personal and internal idea—unexpressed—of how the world works. In the above example of a queer woman of color objecting to the appointment of a queer white person, that’s not an internal and unexpressed personal belief driving their argument. Her argument is right there in the open. The first one is impossible problem and the second one is a complex problem. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system [2]: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Critique_of_Cynical_Reason/wDNyQgAACAAJ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Critique_of_Cynical_Rea...

unethical_ban 4y ago

Using wokism and progressivism interchangably, as you do in other comments, is a mistake. You also agree with other people down the thread to "look outside the US". Well, there are cities and countries with real progressive ideals that are operating quite well for their citizens. I believe reforms to better care for the homeless and the addicted, to provide better social safety nets, requires a host of changes and may need to be done at a scale higher than a city. That all said, it does seem SF has fucked up in ways that need backed out or tried a different way.

rob74 4y ago

The quote that stuck with me is: "But people addicted to drugs come from all over the country in part for the services San Francisco provides." So, because other cities are tough on drugs (including the famous "three strikes" laws where you can receive a life sentence if you get caught with drugs three times), and San Francisco treats drug addicts more humanely, drug addicts from all over the US tend to migrate to San Francisco. Making the citizens of the city miserable. Hmmm...

areyousure 4y ago
In case anyone is curious, California is one of the (majority of) states with three strike laws: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114301025 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114301... (But within the state, San Francisco County is indeed perhaps the laxest with regards to sentencing.)
- cudgy 4y ago
  Three strikes was part of a Clinton led crime bill passed in the 90’s by a tough on crime Democratic Party. Supported enthusiastically by Republicans as well of course — a “team effort”.
gunshai 4y ago
I am not this far into the article yet, but here is something that has always stuck with me written by the guardian about bussing. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/... The article was written back in ~2016~(the end of 2017),it really needs to be revisited, but the sentiment of "go to where there are services for your problem" does indeed exist.
cudgy 4y ago
Leaving mentally insane (temporarily due to drug use or permanently) people to rot on the street next to a trailer with showers, sack lunches, and an endless supply of clean needles is more humane than placing them in custody with a slim possibility of getting sober? Not everyone is able to ask for help; sometimes there needs to be an intervention.