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Sure there are. We know that lots of mass shootings are committed by people who go buy assault weapons and entire arsenals legally, even though there are multip

by Bud 4y ago

Sure there are. We know that lots of mass shootings are committed by people who go buy assault weapons and entire arsenals legally, even though there are multiple obvious red flags that should have prevented it. A lot of these people, to put it rather mildly, are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Even very basic legal provisions would keep them from getting those guns. They'd then have to get them via means that make it a lot more likely for them to get caught. We KNOW this from page after page of examples where sensible gun laws immediately decreased gun violence, in short order.

_gabe_ 4y ago
Some statistics here to back your claims would be nice. I'll consider over 20% of mass shootings done with legally bought weapons as sufficient to cover "lots of mass shootings". And how you count what a mass shooting is is relevant as well. If you include all the gang violence, like many sources do to boost the numbers, that will wildly skew the results on how many illegally obtained weapons were used.
- Bud 4y ago
  The figure is actually 77%. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/us/politics/legal-gun-purchase-mass-shooting.html?referringSource=articleShare https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/us/politics/legal-gun-pur... You’d already know this if you spent even two minutes investigating. And the claim holds up no matter how you choose to define a mass shooting. If you want to restrict it to only the most deadly and infamous mass shooting incidents, the percentage actually goes UP. Don’t take my word for it, Google it yourself and read five or ten good sources. The proof is overwhelming.
  - _gabe_ 4y ago
    Awesome I appreciate the link! I do appreciate it when the link isn't to a pay walled news site and it goes directly to the paper they're citing from even more though. I believe this is the paper they were citing from[0] (correct me if I'm wrong, I couldn't access the site because of the pay wall, and I don't feel like going to my PC to get around the pay wall right now). I would like to point out a few interesting tidbits from the data and inject my opinions after the citations. > Most individuals who perpetrated mass shootings had a prior criminal record (64.5%) and a history of violence (62.8%), including domestic violence (27.9%). And 28.5% had a military background. Most died on the scene of the public mass shooting, with 38.4% dying by their own hand and 20.3% killed by law enforcement officers. It's interesting that out of the 64% that had a prior criminal record, they somehow were re-released which allowed them to commit a mass shooting. Something is wrong here. It seems like we're holding people with less severe crimes in prison for too long, and the ones who should have stayed in prison are being released too early. > Of the known mass shooting cases (32.5% of cases could not be confirmed), 77% of those who engaged in mass shootings purchased at least some of their guns legally, while illegal purchases were made by 13% of those committing mass shootings. In cases involving K-12 school shootings, over 80% of individuals who engaged in shootings stole guns from family members. I'm not sure what this means exactly, but it's interesting to me that they phrased it this way "77% of those who engaged in mass shootings purchased at least some of their guns legally". This seems to indicate that of this 77% who purchased some of their guns legally, they may have purchased the guns used to commit the mass shootings illegally. I don't know why they phrased this this way, but it seems to indicate these individuals may have purchased guns farther back in the past legally, then been barred from buying guns, purchased more guns illegally, and then used those illegal weapons. > Nearly half of individuals who engaged in mass shootings (48%) leaked their plans in advance to others, including family members, friends, and colleagues, as well as strangers and law enforcement officers. It's very sad to me that almost 50% of these cases could have been avoided! In some of these cases, law enforcement knew about it in advance, and it still happened. When you actually read the data directly from the sources, and avoid a right wing or left wing propaganda outlet, and you form your opinions on your own, you may be surprised about the statistics. But don't take my word for it, Google it yourself and read the actual papers that did the research. The proof is quite ambiguous, and it seems like there's lots of variables that could have changed these outcomes. [0]: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-database-amasses-details-half-century-us-mass-shootings https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-da...
    - Bud 4y ago
      I read NIJ's paper as well. It backs up what I said, completely. Gun laws work. Have worked, do work, will work in the future if passed now.
z9e 4y ago
Yeah those sensible gun laws in Chicago - some of the strictest in the country mind you, seem to be working really well. /s
Benanov 4y ago
The problem is short that weapon ownership is established as a right in the US - not a privilege. This makes it much harder and less palatable to regulate. It's been done, but there's tons of court cases where strict laws were overturned after a lengthy court battle...that and there's enough people in this country that will vote out any lawmaker who goes after firearm ownership. This is why lawmakers faff around with stupid ineffective solutions like "a firearm cannot have any of these features" instead of something more "common sense" - odds are it's been tried, and repealed or overturned.
- seanw444 4y ago
  As they should be. Things like a 1,000% tax on weapons that leave them only available to the wealthy and the politicians should be immediately disregarded.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    Indeed. Even "keep them out of the wrong hands" is likely to essentially be "keep them out of the hands of black people" after certain law makers set the criteria.
seanw444 4y ago
For some reason I figured HN was immune to the classic gun talking points. Maybe clarify what you mean by "assault weapons" as the general populous does not have easy access to what could be construed as "assault weapons". Not even law-abiding citizens. Despite the warnings of the Founding Fathers. "A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies." ~ George Washington Military supplies. Not "civilianized" equipment.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > For some reason I figured HN was immune to the classic gun talking points. People on this thread are using the word "literally" as a source for their claims, I wouldn't expect too much from this site, at least highly political threads.
- dekhn 4y ago
  I imagine another america: one where every able-bodied teenager is trained to use a gun, how to clean it, and store/operate it safely. And they spend some amount of time in a militia group (the leaders can keep an eye to identify the folks who seem dangerous), and ultimately, every able-bodied adult keeps a gun at home for homeland defense. I have no idea how it would work in practice, but I think it might go a long way to address how people operate with guns.
  - seanw444 4y ago
    Sounds like a dream come true to me, and once again, the OGs. "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." ~ Richard Henry Lee "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." ~ Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." ~ Patrick Henry

by Bud 4y ago

_gabe_ 4y ago

Some statistics here to back your claims would be nice. I'll consider over 20% of mass shootings done with legally bought weapons as sufficient to cover "lots of mass shootings". And how you count what a mass shooting is is relevant as well. If you include all the gang violence, like many sources do to boost the numbers, that will wildly skew the results on how many illegally obtained weapons were used.

Bud 4y ago
The figure is actually 77%. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/us/politics/legal-gun-purchase-mass-shooting.html?referringSource=articleShare https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/us/politics/legal-gun-pur... You’d already know this if you spent even two minutes investigating. And the claim holds up no matter how you choose to define a mass shooting. If you want to restrict it to only the most deadly and infamous mass shooting incidents, the percentage actually goes UP. Don’t take my word for it, Google it yourself and read five or ten good sources. The proof is overwhelming.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  Awesome I appreciate the link! I do appreciate it when the link isn't to a pay walled news site and it goes directly to the paper they're citing from even more though. I believe this is the paper they were citing from[0] (correct me if I'm wrong, I couldn't access the site because of the pay wall, and I don't feel like going to my PC to get around the pay wall right now). I would like to point out a few interesting tidbits from the data and inject my opinions after the citations. > Most individuals who perpetrated mass shootings had a prior criminal record (64.5%) and a history of violence (62.8%), including domestic violence (27.9%). And 28.5% had a military background. Most died on the scene of the public mass shooting, with 38.4% dying by their own hand and 20.3% killed by law enforcement officers. It's interesting that out of the 64% that had a prior criminal record, they somehow were re-released which allowed them to commit a mass shooting. Something is wrong here. It seems like we're holding people with less severe crimes in prison for too long, and the ones who should have stayed in prison are being released too early. > Of the known mass shooting cases (32.5% of cases could not be confirmed), 77% of those who engaged in mass shootings purchased at least some of their guns legally, while illegal purchases were made by 13% of those committing mass shootings. In cases involving K-12 school shootings, over 80% of individuals who engaged in shootings stole guns from family members. I'm not sure what this means exactly, but it's interesting to me that they phrased it this way "77% of those who engaged in mass shootings purchased at least some of their guns legally". This seems to indicate that of this 77% who purchased some of their guns legally, they may have purchased the guns used to commit the mass shootings illegally. I don't know why they phrased this this way, but it seems to indicate these individuals may have purchased guns farther back in the past legally, then been barred from buying guns, purchased more guns illegally, and then used those illegal weapons. > Nearly half of individuals who engaged in mass shootings (48%) leaked their plans in advance to others, including family members, friends, and colleagues, as well as strangers and law enforcement officers. It's very sad to me that almost 50% of these cases could have been avoided! In some of these cases, law enforcement knew about it in advance, and it still happened. When you actually read the data directly from the sources, and avoid a right wing or left wing propaganda outlet, and you form your opinions on your own, you may be surprised about the statistics. But don't take my word for it, Google it yourself and read the actual papers that did the research. The proof is quite ambiguous, and it seems like there's lots of variables that could have changed these outcomes. [0]: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-database-amasses-details-half-century-us-mass-shootings https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-da...
  - Bud 4y ago
    I read NIJ's paper as well. It backs up what I said, completely. Gun laws work. Have worked, do work, will work in the future if passed now.

z9e 4y ago

Yeah those sensible gun laws in Chicago - some of the strictest in the country mind you, seem to be working really well. /s

Benanov 4y ago

The problem is short that weapon ownership is established as a right in the US - not a privilege. This makes it much harder and less palatable to regulate. It's been done, but there's tons of court cases where strict laws were overturned after a lengthy court battle...that and there's enough people in this country that will vote out any lawmaker who goes after firearm ownership. This is why lawmakers faff around with stupid ineffective solutions like "a firearm cannot have any of these features" instead of something more "common sense" - odds are it's been tried, and repealed or overturned.

seanw444 4y ago
As they should be. Things like a 1,000% tax on weapons that leave them only available to the wealthy and the politicians should be immediately disregarded.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  Indeed. Even "keep them out of the wrong hands" is likely to essentially be "keep them out of the hands of black people" after certain law makers set the criteria.

seanw444 4y ago

For some reason I figured HN was immune to the classic gun talking points. Maybe clarify what you mean by "assault weapons" as the general populous does not have easy access to what could be construed as "assault weapons". Not even law-abiding citizens. Despite the warnings of the Founding Fathers. "A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies." ~ George Washington Military supplies. Not "civilianized" equipment.

the_only_law 4y ago
> For some reason I figured HN was immune to the classic gun talking points. People on this thread are using the word "literally" as a source for their claims, I wouldn't expect too much from this site, at least highly political threads.
dekhn 4y ago
I imagine another america: one where every able-bodied teenager is trained to use a gun, how to clean it, and store/operate it safely. And they spend some amount of time in a militia group (the leaders can keep an eye to identify the folks who seem dangerous), and ultimately, every able-bodied adult keeps a gun at home for homeland defense. I have no idea how it would work in practice, but I think it might go a long way to address how people operate with guns.
- seanw444 4y ago
  Sounds like a dream come true to me, and once again, the OGs. "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." ~ Richard Henry Lee "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." ~ Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." ~ Patrick Henry