6 ms·

In my experience, you should be applying at small to medium-sized companies that are not tech companies. There's a ton of work in these companies and hiring is

In my experience, you should be applying at small to medium-sized companies that are not tech companies. There's a ton of work in these companies and hiring is more focused on solving business problems than answering brainteasers in interviews. Just go to LinkedIn and search Jobs for "PHP", here's one right off the bat that fits your skillset: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/ https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/

eatonphil 4y ago
Yes 100%. If you, OP, are already outside of a major tech metro (so not SF, NYC, Seattle, Boston) then even better. Small companies outside of major tech metros are desperate for developers who can code because these companies cannot compete on stock or salary the same way major tech metro companies do. These small companies often even train up smart-looking people who don't know code already just to fill their needs. Judging solely from your "resume", OP, you are in a very good position. Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. That's how I got my start ~10 years ago making $70k or so. If you have any code you can share, try emailing the CEO/CTO directly explaining your interest and sharing your resume and code. And always ignore the exact qualifications listed and apply anyway. You don't know what the candidate pool looks like for a company and listings tend to inflate what they need or can get. Happy to chat more in email (see my HN profile) since I was in a somewhat similar place as you, OP, years ago. Anyone, not just OP welcome to message me.
- spearingthehead 4y ago
  >Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. Here's the funny thing- My best career years were at jobs I found on Craigslist. They still paid pretty low next to decent traditional job sectors (banking, logistics, etc) that hire devs, but WLB was usually very good. I felt lucky to have worked at a web agency that, while not very reputable, at least didn't work their engineers to the bone at late hours. Then I tried to "level up" around 2015-16 moving to major corporate listings on LinkedIn, Indeed, and Angel.co for startups etc, and was taken aback at how the jobs market there showed no mercy to me. I was striking out every time. Falling behind in web tech most likely also had something to do with it, but in any case, it made my plans for a better future more difficult. I was on and off with attempting that side of the market, hence the sporadic nature of my freelance jobs in the late 2010's. I live in a non-tech MCOL metro area. Is CL still ripe for dev work in 2022? I stopped using it after 2014 but I have noticed back then that listings were starting to dry up. Other ideas: Would you also suggest consultancies and body shops like Accenture and Deloitte? Or would that be too out of my league? I'm just curious on the "they hire anyone with a degree" stereotype and curious to test how accurate that is. I will message you later if I have any more questions that might come up.
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    It's a numbers game. I've worked for startups and Oracle and Linode. I have a somewhat popular blog and somewhat popular Github projects. It still takes me maybe 50-100 applications before I find the right job every time I go searching. It's easy to get discouraged but just take breaks when you need to and keep trying. At least, that's what I do!
    - pwdisswordfish9 4y ago
      > It still takes me maybe 50-100 applications before I find the right job every time I go searching. To get some data points with others' experience, how long does the period of submitting 50–100 applications take? How about time between first contact to hire? (That is, for a given company you've ended up working for, how long between submitting your application to that company and receiving an offer?)
      - eatonphil 4y ago
        For me, 6-12 months.
    - spearingthehead 4y ago
      I've taken some breaks as well. Since COVID I have personally recorded at least 1,000 job applications, 800 in the last year alone, with ~30 interviews. Got burned out last fall, and trying to get back into a rhythm of 5 per day. But I also get a lot of recruiter emails anyway and a lot of choices there too. Sometimes it can get overwhelming.
      - nimbleplum40 4y ago
        Woah, 800 in the last year alone? That's a _ton_ of applications. Are you sending unique cover letters with each one? It might be better to focus on quality over quantity in this case. Has anyone reviewed your resume and given pointers?
        4y ago
spearingthehead 4y ago
So I guess making a return to PHP web shops but just "doing your job better" and take advantage of FTE opportunities for promotions, etc. Correct? The job in that link is a junior job. I'm pretty open to reverting to a junior W2 job, with a modest (but not too low) salary, BUT it does raise the concern of presenting myself to employers. I already know that a lot of employers will see 10 years experience and applying to junior jobs as a big red flag. Do I just present myself with a shorter resume, with less experience? Navigating the jobs market when you're stagnating 10 YOE and "expert beginner" is a big headache.
- coderintherye 4y ago
  If you do well, you'll quickly get promoted out of a Junior role so I wouldn't focus too much on the title. Focus on fit. That said you should be fine applying for normal roles just at small to medium-size non-tech companies. Do ask for your value in salary and don't take something that doesn't pay you what you are worth. Resume: Just make it tight and to the point. In interviews, press that you can solve their problems and work well with their team. Avoid companies that want live-coding whiteboard interviews and focus on ones that do take-homes or other assessments to ensure you are a good fit. Having read a few of your responses, you seem to be over-thinking it. You need to just get in a role, start performing and start working your way up. Don't be afraid to switch jobs at the 1-year mark as opportunities arise if they don't value your growth and contributions, but try to avoid leaving a job < 1 year unless it turns out to be a bad fit and/or unsupportive.
  - spearingthehead 4y ago
    This all sounds good to me. I'd prefer companies that would give me the benefit of the doubt. In addition to what you've suggested, I also want to avoid displaying all the red flags (or minimize them, at least) that user "codegeek" talked about. 2.5 years unemployed and 10 years of relatively little progress is not a good look, and this issue is probably the first objective I must overcome. With job applications, I will try out an A/B test with resumes. One of them with a lot of years pruned from my experience so that employers will have fewer negative biases about looking like a dinosaur or other related "laziness".

eatonphil 4y ago

Yes 100%. If you, OP, are already outside of a major tech metro (so not SF, NYC, Seattle, Boston) then even better. Small companies outside of major tech metros are desperate for developers who can code because these companies cannot compete on stock or salary the same way major tech metro companies do. These small companies often even train up smart-looking people who don't know code already just to fill their needs. Judging solely from your "resume", OP, you are in a very good position. Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. That's how I got my start ~10 years ago making $70k or so. If you have any code you can share, try emailing the CEO/CTO directly explaining your interest and sharing your resume and code. And always ignore the exact qualifications listed and apply anyway. You don't know what the candidate pool looks like for a company and listings tend to inflate what they need or can get. Happy to chat more in email (see my HN profile) since I was in a somewhat similar place as you, OP, years ago. Anyone, not just OP welcome to message me.

spearingthehead 4y ago
>Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. Here's the funny thing- My best career years were at jobs I found on Craigslist. They still paid pretty low next to decent traditional job sectors (banking, logistics, etc) that hire devs, but WLB was usually very good. I felt lucky to have worked at a web agency that, while not very reputable, at least didn't work their engineers to the bone at late hours. Then I tried to "level up" around 2015-16 moving to major corporate listings on LinkedIn, Indeed, and Angel.co for startups etc, and was taken aback at how the jobs market there showed no mercy to me. I was striking out every time. Falling behind in web tech most likely also had something to do with it, but in any case, it made my plans for a better future more difficult. I was on and off with attempting that side of the market, hence the sporadic nature of my freelance jobs in the late 2010's. I live in a non-tech MCOL metro area. Is CL still ripe for dev work in 2022? I stopped using it after 2014 but I have noticed back then that listings were starting to dry up. Other ideas: Would you also suggest consultancies and body shops like Accenture and Deloitte? Or would that be too out of my league? I'm just curious on the "they hire anyone with a degree" stereotype and curious to test how accurate that is. I will message you later if I have any more questions that might come up.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  It's a numbers game. I've worked for startups and Oracle and Linode. I have a somewhat popular blog and somewhat popular Github projects. It still takes me maybe 50-100 applications before I find the right job every time I go searching. It's easy to get discouraged but just take breaks when you need to and keep trying. At least, that's what I do!
  - pwdisswordfish9 4y ago
    > It still takes me maybe 50-100 applications before I find the right job every time I go searching. To get some data points with others' experience, how long does the period of submitting 50–100 applications take? How about time between first contact to hire? (That is, for a given company you've ended up working for, how long between submitting your application to that company and receiving an offer?)
    - eatonphil 4y ago
      For me, 6-12 months.
  - spearingthehead 4y ago
    I've taken some breaks as well. Since COVID I have personally recorded at least 1,000 job applications, 800 in the last year alone, with ~30 interviews. Got burned out last fall, and trying to get back into a rhythm of 5 per day. But I also get a lot of recruiter emails anyway and a lot of choices there too. Sometimes it can get overwhelming.
    - nimbleplum40 4y ago
      Woah, 800 in the last year alone? That's a _ton_ of applications. Are you sending unique cover letters with each one? It might be better to focus on quality over quantity in this case. Has anyone reviewed your resume and given pointers?
      - 4y ago

spearingthehead 4y ago

So I guess making a return to PHP web shops but just "doing your job better" and take advantage of FTE opportunities for promotions, etc. Correct? The job in that link is a junior job. I'm pretty open to reverting to a junior W2 job, with a modest (but not too low) salary, BUT it does raise the concern of presenting myself to employers. I already know that a lot of employers will see 10 years experience and applying to junior jobs as a big red flag. Do I just present myself with a shorter resume, with less experience? Navigating the jobs market when you're stagnating 10 YOE and "expert beginner" is a big headache.

coderintherye 4y ago
If you do well, you'll quickly get promoted out of a Junior role so I wouldn't focus too much on the title. Focus on fit. That said you should be fine applying for normal roles just at small to medium-size non-tech companies. Do ask for your value in salary and don't take something that doesn't pay you what you are worth. Resume: Just make it tight and to the point. In interviews, press that you can solve their problems and work well with their team. Avoid companies that want live-coding whiteboard interviews and focus on ones that do take-homes or other assessments to ensure you are a good fit. Having read a few of your responses, you seem to be over-thinking it. You need to just get in a role, start performing and start working your way up. Don't be afraid to switch jobs at the 1-year mark as opportunities arise if they don't value your growth and contributions, but try to avoid leaving a job < 1 year unless it turns out to be a bad fit and/or unsupportive.
- spearingthehead 4y ago
  This all sounds good to me. I'd prefer companies that would give me the benefit of the doubt. In addition to what you've suggested, I also want to avoid displaying all the red flags (or minimize them, at least) that user "codegeek" talked about. 2.5 years unemployed and 10 years of relatively little progress is not a good look, and this issue is probably the first objective I must overcome. With job applications, I will try out an A/B test with resumes. One of them with a lot of years pruned from my experience so that employers will have fewer negative biases about looking like a dinosaur or other related "laziness".