7 ms·

52-year-old early retiree left the U.S. for Portugal with his family

31 points by belltaco 4y ago

wildzzz 4y ago
"Wealthy millionaire retires to foreign country"
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  You can move to Portugal on a D7 visa with no more than €10k/year in passive, pension, or remote income for a single person. For a family of four, it’s closer to €20k/year. More income = improved housing quality and location, of course. Private health insurance (a visa requirement) for a year for a family of four was quoted to me at ~$1200. For the entire year. For comparison, I spend ~$18k/year for premiums and deductibles with an employer provided health plan. After five years, you can apply for citizenship and have free movement to all of Europe. Social Security income recipients, in many cases, meet that bar. Portugal also has a treaty with the US where earned income in Portugal can count towards your US social security earning record.
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    The couple in the article bought a home for €500,000 cash (no mortgage) and are making $130,000 a year just on dividends. You're probably right, but so is the parent. They're wealthy millionaires. According to this video[1], $1.9 million yielding 5.2% will give you $100k per year in dividend income, so they have to have even more than that invested. [1]: https://youtu.be/DWu3oU6dcBs?t=772 https://youtu.be/DWu3oU6dcBs?t=772
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Point taken. There’s always nuance.
- larryett 4y ago
  "our portfolio of high-yielding stocks and mutual funds paid roughly $130,000 a year in dividends" I mean can you imagine? That would barely keep the wine cellar stocked let alone anything left over to afford original works of art.
Melting_Harps 4y ago
Well, it was nice while it lasted... Portugal's D7 visa process was already a ~6 month waiting time, this recent influx of people since late '21 is pricing out so many as the Visa process is usually a large hurdle. It's still possible, of course, but honestly now I'm on the fence given who is coming over. At least most are sticking to Lisbon, and Porto, there are still lots of small cities not ready to turn itself into the typical tourist trap(s) quite yet.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  I wonder what is the end game here. The Portuguese government needs the extra tax revenue to mitigate their own foreign debt and stop state pensions from collapsing mostly because there is no population growth and a large emmigration flow. But these retirees are largely not going to generate jobs or raise more kids and they will increase the pressure on real estate and healthcare. I wonder if anyone has done the maths on this in terms of the long term consequences and costs?
  - sytelus 4y ago
    They are the spenders and lifts up local economy. As long as immigrant population has more than above average income than local population, it's good for economy. Downside is ofcourse that real estate will go up but upside is that average income local population also goes up because there are more people buying goods and services.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    With the birth rate they have the natural trend is that their population is shrinking. Therefore, a level of immigration is certainly not putting pressure on real estate. If anything it's preventing the market from crashing.
  - FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
    At the local level, in many western countries, municipalities will specifically zone for "55+ communities" for this reason: They bring tax dollars but don't need schools.
zeruch 4y ago
I hope Portugal makes it onerously difficult for expats. The last thing that place needs is to be the new Malaga. Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough, and love "my ancestral homeland" and already see signs of boorish US/UK expats being full-on entitled jackwagons.
- Thin_icE 4y ago
  You might be biased, but you're spot on. This can't go on much longer.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  >Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough Ah so you love the old "enjoy visiting the old country on the new country salary" bit. But what's good for you the occasional visiting ex-Portuguese may not be good for people who actually live there. Portugal is furiously marketing itself to expats (retirees, entrepreneurs, professionals) because their government understands the demographic situation it's in. Stagnant population for ~30 years, but now the natural change is becoming so bad that without immigrants and expats, the depopulation will make any kind of economic growth impossible. A country needs a tax base, and your occasional visits won't do much for that.
  - adriancr 4y ago
    they could reduce level of corruption to find the money and reduce tax burden to keep people from leaving.
    - dangus 4y ago
      If tax burden was the driving reason for people leaving, wouldn’t NYC, LA, and San Francisco be empty by now? Yes, corruption is likely a cause of brain drain, I agree with you there, but I have to think that brain drain is a multifaceted issue. Some of these facets are out of the control of the locality entirely. Some examples: West Virginia can’t change the fact that there’s little demand for coal mining. The Midwest can’t change the fact that the manufacturing industry spread out beyond its borders. Vacation towns in Michigan can’t change the fact that cheap air travel now exists to take people to more desirable beach climates. New Orleans can’t change its physical location to be less prone to flooding. I don’t have enough familiarity with Portugal to say what’s going on, but any time I hear high taxes being blamed for widespread issues I get a faint whiff of oversimplified libertarian ideology.
Thin_icE 4y ago
It's fine if you guys come to visit, but staying here with your income is making Portugal unlivable for the natives. Unaffordable rents are a huge issue, for example. Just beware that Portuguese folk might not be friendly to foreign folks someday, given that we're being crushed because of you.
- dekhn 4y ago
  the history of humanity is defined by migrations due to resource constraints. Also wouldn't more rich people coming to the country lead to more spending on goods, services, and real estate, which would benefit indepedent businesses and land owners?
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    > Also wouldn't more rich people coming to the country lead to more spending on goods, services, and real estate, which would benefit indepedent businesses and land owners? i think the better question to ask is, would it be better for the vast majority of people living there?
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  I think that the birth rate in Portugal is about 1.3 per woman so long term rents and property prices will crash unless you find people to fill all those houses.
  - bell-cot 4y ago
    True or not, 10,000-foot talk about long-term trends does not do sh*t to help lower-income natives who are being priced out of the market now, and getting desperate for workable places to live. Maybe the new folks could live rough until that eventual demographic collapse frees up housing for 'em? Didn't think so.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      It's quite simple. The Portuguese should have more children. The way these demographic trends are discussed as inevitable or intractable is quite funny to me. Sure, one couple can't do it alone. But a general cultural shift towards pro-natalism, with the support of generous government benefits for parents, just might do the trick.
lizardactivist 4y ago
Good for him! Him and his family will have a safer, secure, and more relaxed life there.
8bitsrule 4y ago
OTOH, there are vast regions of Iberia that are unpopulated. Where migrantes may be more welcome! EG 70% of Spain is Empty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL8XPZp4-5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL8XPZp4-5c

31 points by belltaco 4y ago

wildzzz 4y ago

"Wealthy millionaire retires to foreign country"

toomuchtodo 4y ago
You can move to Portugal on a D7 visa with no more than €10k/year in passive, pension, or remote income for a single person. For a family of four, it’s closer to €20k/year. More income = improved housing quality and location, of course. Private health insurance (a visa requirement) for a year for a family of four was quoted to me at ~$1200. For the entire year. For comparison, I spend ~$18k/year for premiums and deductibles with an employer provided health plan. After five years, you can apply for citizenship and have free movement to all of Europe. Social Security income recipients, in many cases, meet that bar. Portugal also has a treaty with the US where earned income in Portugal can count towards your US social security earning record.
- cableshaft 4y ago
  The couple in the article bought a home for €500,000 cash (no mortgage) and are making $130,000 a year just on dividends. You're probably right, but so is the parent. They're wealthy millionaires. According to this video[1], $1.9 million yielding 5.2% will give you $100k per year in dividend income, so they have to have even more than that invested. [1]: https://youtu.be/DWu3oU6dcBs?t=772 https://youtu.be/DWu3oU6dcBs?t=772
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Point taken. There’s always nuance.
larryett 4y ago
"our portfolio of high-yielding stocks and mutual funds paid roughly $130,000 a year in dividends" I mean can you imagine? That would barely keep the wine cellar stocked let alone anything left over to afford original works of art.

Melting_Harps 4y ago

Well, it was nice while it lasted... Portugal's D7 visa process was already a ~6 month waiting time, this recent influx of people since late '21 is pricing out so many as the Visa process is usually a large hurdle. It's still possible, of course, but honestly now I'm on the fence given who is coming over. At least most are sticking to Lisbon, and Porto, there are still lots of small cities not ready to turn itself into the typical tourist trap(s) quite yet.

DoingIsLearning 4y ago
I wonder what is the end game here. The Portuguese government needs the extra tax revenue to mitigate their own foreign debt and stop state pensions from collapsing mostly because there is no population growth and a large emmigration flow. But these retirees are largely not going to generate jobs or raise more kids and they will increase the pressure on real estate and healthcare. I wonder if anyone has done the maths on this in terms of the long term consequences and costs?
- sytelus 4y ago
  They are the spenders and lifts up local economy. As long as immigrant population has more than above average income than local population, it's good for economy. Downside is ofcourse that real estate will go up but upside is that average income local population also goes up because there are more people buying goods and services.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  With the birth rate they have the natural trend is that their population is shrinking. Therefore, a level of immigration is certainly not putting pressure on real estate. If anything it's preventing the market from crashing.
- FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
  At the local level, in many western countries, municipalities will specifically zone for "55+ communities" for this reason: They bring tax dollars but don't need schools.

zeruch 4y ago

I hope Portugal makes it onerously difficult for expats. The last thing that place needs is to be the new Malaga. Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough, and love "my ancestral homeland" and already see signs of boorish US/UK expats being full-on entitled jackwagons.

Thin_icE 4y ago
You might be biased, but you're spot on. This can't go on much longer.
kspacewalk2 4y ago
>Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough Ah so you love the old "enjoy visiting the old country on the new country salary" bit. But what's good for you the occasional visiting ex-Portuguese may not be good for people who actually live there. Portugal is furiously marketing itself to expats (retirees, entrepreneurs, professionals) because their government understands the demographic situation it's in. Stagnant population for ~30 years, but now the natural change is becoming so bad that without immigrants and expats, the depopulation will make any kind of economic growth impossible. A country needs a tax base, and your occasional visits won't do much for that.
- adriancr 4y ago
  they could reduce level of corruption to find the money and reduce tax burden to keep people from leaving.
  - dangus 4y ago
    If tax burden was the driving reason for people leaving, wouldn’t NYC, LA, and San Francisco be empty by now? Yes, corruption is likely a cause of brain drain, I agree with you there, but I have to think that brain drain is a multifaceted issue. Some of these facets are out of the control of the locality entirely. Some examples: West Virginia can’t change the fact that there’s little demand for coal mining. The Midwest can’t change the fact that the manufacturing industry spread out beyond its borders. Vacation towns in Michigan can’t change the fact that cheap air travel now exists to take people to more desirable beach climates. New Orleans can’t change its physical location to be less prone to flooding. I don’t have enough familiarity with Portugal to say what’s going on, but any time I hear high taxes being blamed for widespread issues I get a faint whiff of oversimplified libertarian ideology.

Thin_icE 4y ago

It's fine if you guys come to visit, but staying here with your income is making Portugal unlivable for the natives. Unaffordable rents are a huge issue, for example. Just beware that Portuguese folk might not be friendly to foreign folks someday, given that we're being crushed because of you.

dekhn 4y ago
the history of humanity is defined by migrations due to resource constraints. Also wouldn't more rich people coming to the country lead to more spending on goods, services, and real estate, which would benefit indepedent businesses and land owners?
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > Also wouldn't more rich people coming to the country lead to more spending on goods, services, and real estate, which would benefit indepedent businesses and land owners? i think the better question to ask is, would it be better for the vast majority of people living there?
mytailorisrich 4y ago
I think that the birth rate in Portugal is about 1.3 per woman so long term rents and property prices will crash unless you find people to fill all those houses.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  True or not, 10,000-foot talk about long-term trends does not do sh*t to help lower-income natives who are being priced out of the market now, and getting desperate for workable places to live. Maybe the new folks could live rough until that eventual demographic collapse frees up housing for 'em? Didn't think so.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    It's quite simple. The Portuguese should have more children. The way these demographic trends are discussed as inevitable or intractable is quite funny to me. Sure, one couple can't do it alone. But a general cultural shift towards pro-natalism, with the support of generous government benefits for parents, just might do the trick.

lizardactivist 4y ago

Good for him! Him and his family will have a safer, secure, and more relaxed life there.

8bitsrule 4y ago

OTOH, there are vast regions of Iberia that are unpopulated. Where migrantes may be more welcome! EG 70% of Spain is Empty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL8XPZp4-5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL8XPZp4-5c