5 ms·

My understanding is that drivers aren't part of the kernel in Windows like they are in Linux. And I believe an ARM build of some kind or another already exists

My understanding is that drivers aren't part of the kernel in Windows like they are in Linux. And I believe an ARM build of some kind or another already exists out there for Windows

Arnavion 4y ago
Yes, there is a public stable API for Windows drivers. Even the built-in drivers are dynamically loaded. Windows on ARM isn't new. The oldest Windows on ARM was Windows 8 RT (ARM32 only, I believe). Right now it seems Windows 10 and Windows 11 have ARM64 versions, but there was also Windows IoT Core from the Windows IoT OS branch a few years ago.
- oneplane 4y ago
  Windows CE on ARM and Windows PocketPC on ARM is older than that. But all of it has the same issue: you nearly always need a specific rebuild for a different ARM-machine because there isn't a single "ARM PC". Just like x86 pre-ACPI where you need different HALs and bringups for different systems. The problem here is twofold: firstly windows is closed so you can't actually add/modify components and rebuild it, only binary hacks and additive installation (like driver packages). Second issue: licensing. ARM isn't available unless you are an OEM. So there is no legal way to run Windows on M1 unless you are Apple and Microsoft signs you a contract (and that hasn't happened either).
  - Arnavion 4y ago
    Haha, yes, I completely forgot about PocketPC.
TheNewsIsHere 4y ago
It does. Officially there is an ARM build of Windows that Microsoft licenses to OEMs, and there is (or maybe was?) Windows IoT Core which has a build for ARM. If I recall (grain of salt then) a while after the first M1 Mac came out one of Apple’s VPs had said something on the record about Apple having tried to get Microsoft to sell retail licenses of a Windows 10 for ARM build, because they didn’t want to deprecate Boot Camp for Windows. But Microsoft said no.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  We learned last November that Qualcomm had an exclusivity agreement for Windows on ARM that lasted a (speculated) 5 years... which they then did almost absolutely nothing worthwhile with. As of November it was "expiring soon" but what "soon" means is still not clear. Perhaps it was renewed. However, just two weeks ago Microsoft announced their "Project Volterra" Mac mini clone for Windows on ARM development, which makes it seem mighty certain that Windows on ARM for Mac is not coming anytime soon because otherwise why on earth would anyone buy that thing... On the other hand, if Project Volterra doesn't sell very well and Windows on ARM continues to flounder, maybe Microsoft will finally make Windows on ARM for Mac a real option in the hopes of capturing mindshare and gathering interest from all the people with Macs.
  - twoodfin 4y ago
    However, just two weeks ago Microsoft announced their "Project Volterra" Mac mini clone for Windows on ARM development, which makes it seem mighty certain that Windows on ARM for Mac is not coming anytime soon because otherwise why on earth would anyone buy that thing… Reading the tea leaves, if Windows were to come to Apple silicon Macs in an Apple-Microsoft mutually supported form, it would almost certainly be as a guest VM under the macOS hypervisor rather than as Boot Camp 2.0. That would still leave room for Project Volterra.
- johnwalkr 4y ago
  I don't remember that, but Apple have actively made changes to support Asahi Linux (I wouldn't go so far as to say they support Asahi Linux) and not backtracked on not-blocking other OSs.
- wolpoli 4y ago
  It seem a bit disingenuous for Apple to shift blames to Microsoft. Microsoft does not sell retail licenses of Windows for ARM devices and what Apple proposed isn't the way Microsoft currently does business for ARM hardware. Yes, Microsoft could change how they do business to accommodate, but so too could Apple. If Microsoft turn around and ask Apple to license Windows and provide the OS as an option to buyers, or ask Apple to supply Macbook hardware so Microsoft could sell Macbooks with Windows on it, Apple likely would have said no too.

My understanding is that drivers aren't part of the kernel in Windows like they are in Linux. And I believe an ARM build of some kind or another already exists out there for Windows

Arnavion 4y ago

Yes, there is a public stable API for Windows drivers. Even the built-in drivers are dynamically loaded. Windows on ARM isn't new. The oldest Windows on ARM was Windows 8 RT (ARM32 only, I believe). Right now it seems Windows 10 and Windows 11 have ARM64 versions, but there was also Windows IoT Core from the Windows IoT OS branch a few years ago.

oneplane 4y ago
Windows CE on ARM and Windows PocketPC on ARM is older than that. But all of it has the same issue: you nearly always need a specific rebuild for a different ARM-machine because there isn't a single "ARM PC". Just like x86 pre-ACPI where you need different HALs and bringups for different systems. The problem here is twofold: firstly windows is closed so you can't actually add/modify components and rebuild it, only binary hacks and additive installation (like driver packages). Second issue: licensing. ARM isn't available unless you are an OEM. So there is no legal way to run Windows on M1 unless you are Apple and Microsoft signs you a contract (and that hasn't happened either).
- Arnavion 4y ago
  Haha, yes, I completely forgot about PocketPC.

TheNewsIsHere 4y ago

It does. Officially there is an ARM build of Windows that Microsoft licenses to OEMs, and there is (or maybe was?) Windows IoT Core which has a build for ARM. If I recall (grain of salt then) a while after the first M1 Mac came out one of Apple’s VPs had said something on the record about Apple having tried to get Microsoft to sell retail licenses of a Windows 10 for ARM build, because they didn’t want to deprecate Boot Camp for Windows. But Microsoft said no.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
We learned last November that Qualcomm had an exclusivity agreement for Windows on ARM that lasted a (speculated) 5 years... which they then did almost absolutely nothing worthwhile with. As of November it was "expiring soon" but what "soon" means is still not clear. Perhaps it was renewed. However, just two weeks ago Microsoft announced their "Project Volterra" Mac mini clone for Windows on ARM development, which makes it seem mighty certain that Windows on ARM for Mac is not coming anytime soon because otherwise why on earth would anyone buy that thing... On the other hand, if Project Volterra doesn't sell very well and Windows on ARM continues to flounder, maybe Microsoft will finally make Windows on ARM for Mac a real option in the hopes of capturing mindshare and gathering interest from all the people with Macs.
- twoodfin 4y ago
  However, just two weeks ago Microsoft announced their "Project Volterra" Mac mini clone for Windows on ARM development, which makes it seem mighty certain that Windows on ARM for Mac is not coming anytime soon because otherwise why on earth would anyone buy that thing… Reading the tea leaves, if Windows were to come to Apple silicon Macs in an Apple-Microsoft mutually supported form, it would almost certainly be as a guest VM under the macOS hypervisor rather than as Boot Camp 2.0. That would still leave room for Project Volterra.
johnwalkr 4y ago
I don't remember that, but Apple have actively made changes to support Asahi Linux (I wouldn't go so far as to say they support Asahi Linux) and not backtracked on not-blocking other OSs.
wolpoli 4y ago
It seem a bit disingenuous for Apple to shift blames to Microsoft. Microsoft does not sell retail licenses of Windows for ARM devices and what Apple proposed isn't the way Microsoft currently does business for ARM hardware. Yes, Microsoft could change how they do business to accommodate, but so too could Apple. If Microsoft turn around and ask Apple to license Windows and provide the OS as an option to buyers, or ask Apple to supply Macbook hardware so Microsoft could sell Macbooks with Windows on it, Apple likely would have said no too.