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> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is d

> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to stop manufacturing it. Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually.

itsoktocry 4y ago
>Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually Interesting example. Betamax was technologically superior, but lost out due to marginally higher costs. What makes you think Tesla's connector wouldn't suffer the same fate?
malfist 4y ago
How is tesla's connector nicer?
- bin_bash 4y ago
  It’s a lot smaller, locks into the car while charging, and doesn’t have an extra flap you have to open when using DC fast charging.
  - objclxt 4y ago
    > locks into the car while charging The EU plug locks into the car while charging. Not sure why you think it doesn't. There's also no obligation to have an extra flap, my Model 3 does not.
    - thinkindie 4y ago
      I second this. I'm frequently using the volkswagen ID.3 and there is no way to unplug it unless you unlock it from charging station with the card you find it in the car (at least in Berlin).
  - malfist 4y ago
    Do those small improvement justify fragmentation of standards?
  - amluto 4y ago
    The locking feature is misguided. There should absolutely be a mechanical interlock to prevent unplugging under load. But no key should be required to unplug a home charger, and no key should be needed to plug in a charger once the charge port is open. As I see it, the only security goals should be: 1. At a public charger, one should have to authenticate to _either_ the car or the charger to interrupt an active charging session. 2. When using a portable charger of the sort that is owned by the car’s owner, one should not be able to unplug the charger and thus steal it if one cannot authenticate to the car. And that’s it. You should be able to unplug someone else from a public charger that can reach multiple parking spaces once it finishes charging.
    - IndrekR 4y ago
      And this is exactly how the charging in EU works.
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    The CCS2 standard used in Europe and most of the world locks the cable similarly to Tesla. The CCS1 standard locks the cable using a little flap that folds down on top of the CCS1 latch to hold it in place. Its every bit as clumsy as it sounds, but it does mean there is a locked cable. Example CCS1 inlet: http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4910&cHash=f50ba9197ea0b5c98e5739aa2504e43f http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt...
  - kylecordes 4y ago
    I can scarcely imagine the shame of an engineer speccing that awful plastic flap on $100,000 car. What do you tell your children?
mrtksn 4y ago
EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, it usually means that you should be involved in the process of making the decisions. Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well unless it's the military. Let's agree to disagree. I like that the car plugs are the same everywhere in EU and want it to stay that way and enjoy the Tesla plugs on a trip to USA.
- ericmay 4y ago
  > EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. In the short term, yes. In the long term however competition between these different standards will cause consolidation and overall technology improvement. The next step will be regulating wireless charging so that all devices have to use/do the same thing, rinse-wash-repeat. > Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well unless it's the military. Let's agree to disagree. A better way to think about this is that both "groups" can learn from one another. For example you could say that Europeans should be suspicious about USB-C manufacturers and advocates effectively being granted a monopoly in the name of convenience. Americans should better trust that certainly in the case of infrastructure it makes sense to have a single standard "plug" for electric vehicles because we really need as many people driving them as possible in the most convenient way.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    We can copy the US if the cable freedom gives birth to superior cables on the long run. EU stuff is't written on stone, it changes as it needs to. I guess In Europe we kind of like the idea of being able to overthrow the people in power if they screw us too much. It's much more socially acceptable to burn cars and occupy streets and decapitate politicians than shooting CEO's when you are really not happy with the way things work. It feels like you have control over the stuff going on in your country.
agloeregrets 4y ago
On the other hand, companies building wholly proprietary infrastructure is just pure e-waste on the back of the citizens of those countries that ALSO limits innovation. Imagine a world where Ford cars use a different gas nozzle from a GM product in the US. The average person would have to pick and choose stations and if one were to go out of business, the lesser standard would encounter mass disposal and retrofit, all on the backs of consumers. The intent with these products is generally not innovation...it is lock in and licensing fees. The EU law in case here has a committee that reviews the standard yearly and accepts proposals.
- treis 4y ago
  >The average person would have to pick and choose stations Stations would just have two nozzles on their pumps.
  - isignal 4y ago
    What if Ford operates their own stations? Would they still have two plugs? (see: Tesla superchargers)
    - Fernicia 4y ago
      This is pure legislation-brain worry about things that markets resolve.
  - delecti 4y ago
    Well, three, because diesel pump nozzles are already a different standard.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Well, eight, because you'd have two each for diesel and each of the three octanes.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
aiisjustanif 4y ago
Imagine if we had this outlook towards plugs in houses in the US. Standardization is underrated.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Funny, because all of North America uses the NEMA standard and the EU uses a bunch of different plugs.
  - rand49an 4y ago
    Probably why they are more conscious it's a problem then.
    - pmyteh 4y ago
      Yeah. The rollout of domestic wiring standards was pre-EU, and dealing with the entrenched incompatible standardisation gets in the way of the EU goal of a single market in goods and services. They really don't want more arbitrary standards that vary nationally. Of course, that's not quite the same as the laptop charger question where the fragmentation is between companies and less entrenched. But still.
  - krzyk 4y ago
    No, EU uses a single plug, it is called "Type C" (no, not USB-C). What you might find in some poorer regions in EU is old plugs that were there pre-EU, or prestandardization. I can say that, because Brexit happened, I have no clue what those were thinking when designing their own gigantic plug.
    - troad 4y ago
      This is just not true. Denmark and Italy use their own plugs; Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus use the British plug; and the heart of the EU is divided between French-style and Schuko plugs. (Switzerland, though outside the EU, also uses its own plugs.) As I understand it, EU moves to standardise plugs failed in the 90s.
mattmoose21 4y ago
Having a car manufacturer dictate where you plug in is bad, actually.
ARandumGuy 4y ago
Sure, the Tesla connector is smaller, and a little sleeker. But from a functionality perspective, the plug types are basically identical. Both allow AC standard charging and DC fast charging. Electric cables aren't that complicated.
- chroma 4y ago
  Compared to CCS, Tesla made a ton of smart decisions with their charging setup: - All Teslas have their charging ports at the rear left side. This means that charging cables can be very short. Longer cables would cause tangles, cost more, and be harder to cool. - Tesla's protocol has built-in payment. You plug in and charge. With CCS it varies. Sometimes you use a credit card. Sometimes you download a mobile app and sign up for some account. Sometimes the planets align and CCS's plug-and-charge works. - The CCS plug is much bigger. If you look at the connector sizes[1] or adapters[2], the CSS plug is comically huge. Tesla had to redesign the tail lights on the Model S/X to fit CCS Combo 2 ports. - Every exposed contact is a potential failure point, and CCS exposes more contacts than Tesla's charging port. - CCS has two different plug dimensions which are used in different regions, so a European CCS vehicle brought to North America will need an adapter (and vice-versa). - If your vehicle only supports AC charging, you cannot charge with CCS Combo plugs. They won't fit. Since some Teslas were made before the CCS Combo standard took off, older Model S/X's used a CCS Type 2 port. So now every Supercharger in Europe has two plugs: CCS Type 2 & Combo 2.[3] 1. https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... 2. https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2021/ccs-adapter.jpg https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2021/ccs-adapter.jp... 3. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eu-tesla-supercharger-dual-cable-outlet-iec-type-2-notched-ccs-combo-2.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eu-tesla-supercharge...
  - arlcode 4y ago
    Several of your points don't have anything to do with CSS and are simply costs of having multiple competing brands on the markets who need to use the same infrastructure (real estate is a very limited resource in many areas). - Older X/S were never that numerous and shouldn't hold up the vast majority of the population. First movers disadvantage if you like. - Moving vehicles across the Atlantic is also a tiny tiny use case and already difficult as is.
gwbas1c 4y ago
> Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually. They didn't make the decision. It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace. > Tesla's connector is nicer Tesla's system only goes up to 400 volts. CCS goes up to 800 volts. The higher voltage supports faster charging. (This is similar to Betamax's critical flaw. The smaller, more elegant Betamax tape compared to the clunky VHS tape meant that VHS could record 6 hours on a tape when Betamax was limited to about 3.5 hours on a tape. It also meant that feature length films were often recorded at slower tape speeds, thus meaning that prerecorded VHS tapes were often a better quality than the Betamax version.)
- theluketaylor 4y ago
  CCS spec limits are actually 1000V and 500A. Electrify America uses 350A units, hence the 350 kW chargers (1000V x 350A). Lucid battery packs are 924V to maximize CCS capability. DC Fast charging has to match pack voltage, so with 400ish volt pack voltage Tesla gets big charging speed by providing extreme amperage. CCS is limited to 500A, so the best way to provide really fast charging is higher pack voltages. Higher voltage does have some benefits around heat and losses, but also has downsides like cost of electronics and installations over 600V generally require special electrical licensing. It's hard to deny the tesla connector is a lot nicer to work with (especially V3 with thin, liquid cooled cables), but I still wish my model 3 sr+ had CCS like euro cars. I'd love to be able to have more charging options.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  I'm not sure that Tesla's connector is a limiting element there. The Tesla system can also go to higher amperages than CCS, which is an advantage. For example, the F150 Lightning charging rate is hampered by its 400 volt CCS system. It can't do more than 200kw. That's creating a lot of the pressure to move to 800 volt. Tesla doesn't have a similar limitation and can do 250-300kw on the existing 400-450V cars.
- orangecat 4y ago
  It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace. Or like 1996 when Apple was failing and everyone should have been forced to standardize on Windows.
taylodl 4y ago
Different countries already have many different rules for autos. That's why it's difficult to be a world-wide auto manufacturer: you have to comply with so many different rules from different countries. That's just the cost of doing business and has been for decades. If Apple believes USB-C is really that bad (which I don't think they do) - then they have the option of creating a handset only for sale in Europe or they can remove all charging ports and go wireless charging. I bet they go with USB-C charging and wireless charging.
_ea1k 4y ago
> Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) I like the Tesla connector in the US, but in Europe, I'd argue that CCS2 is objectively superior. They need 3-phase power support and the Tesla connector doesn't support that. They also use a different CCS connector from the US. The CCS2 connector uses a latching mechanism that is similar to the proprietary Tesla one. Its simple and very reliable. The US CCS1 system uses a dual latching mechanism. The cable and the car each have moving parts that are somewhat complicated. The cable side latch is a common failure point. It makes sense, given the desire to retain backward compatiblity with J1772 L1/L2 chargers, but I don't really think that was worth the tradeoff, tbh.
- dfox 4y ago
  I would say that the IEC 62196-2 used by Tesla in Europe is the most sane EV charging connector design there is. It is standard (albeit in the fast charge mode it is apparently only used by Tesla), the connector is not ridiculously large and the whole mechanical design is derived from industrial power connector that can be used to power entire typical European household.
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    Yeah, that one seems really practical to me. I think CCS2 is only slightly worse, with the additional dedicated DC charging pins.
ehsankia 4y ago
I would rather have a shared and slightly less optimal cable, than a unique and "nicer" cable. USB-C is the perfect example, you can argue that lightning cable is actually nicer, but being able to charge all my different devices with a single cable is far nicer. If every company thought like Tesla/Apple, we'd quickly go down a very untenable road.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
It makes sense for cars to have a standard connector so that they may be charged without any problem at any public charging station. After all, there is a standard fuel nozzle for ICE vehicles. On the other hand, this requirement to have an USB-C connector is pretty useless to downright counter-productive as it will indeed prevent innovation. It's just political hand-waving.
moduspol 4y ago
This is the case I try to make to friends and relatives (non-EV owners) who insist that a common plug is a prerequisite to EV ownership. Standardizing against Tesla at any earlier point would have been a gift on a silver platter for legacy auto by slowing EV adoption, and it's Tesla's freedom to innovate that is why we're even having this discussion instead of theoretical questions about what EVs might be like in the future. I usually tell them to let Tesla solve the remaining edge cases (semis, trailer hauling, and charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups) before we start regulating. Setting things in stone now would be like standardizing on DSL as the only last-mile broadband in 2004. We don't want to do that.
- bonzini 4y ago
  > charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups That's just impossible. Filling a 100 kWh "tank" in one minute requires 6 MW of power, plus all the power that goes into heat. The only solution would be replacing batteries on the fly but Tesla discontinued it. Moving stuff is inherently faster than chemical reactions (unless you're talking about explosions).
  - moduspol 4y ago
    It doesn't have to be equivalent. Just being comparable from a user experience and business case perspective would be enough. Getting it down to five minutes to fill to 80% may be sufficient. Right now it's 15-20 minutes.
    - bonzini 4y ago
      The problem is not just the time to charge a single car but the capacity in cars/hour. First, if a car takes five times longer to charge, you need a lot more space to cover the needs for peak days. This may not be a problem on highways (or in the US) but space in Europe is much more limited. Second, a smallish 6-pump filling station serves 150-200 cars per hour. An equivalent charging station would need 12-15 MW which means working at 40 kV. Dealing with peak days is easy for filling stations, you just request gasoline trucks more frequently. For charging stations you need to build infrastructure that might hardly exist in more rural places, it's the same as sneakernet vs broadband.
diffeomorphism 4y ago
> If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where... Your crystal ball seems broken. You could have said the exact same thing about micro-usb for phone chargers, yet somehow we ended up in the present. Hint: Your supposed critical flaw is incredibly obvious. So either everyone but you is an idiot or just maybe the people making laws have thought of that too...
dreamcompiler 4y ago
I's absolutely true that Tesla's EV connector is better than CCS, and it's a pity that Tesla lost that battle. But it's also true that USB-C with PD is better than the alternatives in its space so occasionally the committees get things right.
- phkahler 4y ago
  >> I's absolutely true that Tesla's EV connector is better than CCS, and it's a pity that Tesla lost that battle. Currently working at a company that makes CCS chargers. Can confirm the standard is an absolute shit show, the cables are heavy, and the plugs are a giant pain in the ass. But hey, it's the standard so that's what we make. Oh, and why TF do we have a PowerLine Communication chip to talk to the vehicle over (non-power) signal wires? A few CAN messages would have done the job. One of the stupidest communication standards ever.
  - dreamcompiler 4y ago
    Tesla's connector uses CAN over signal wires, and it uses the same power pins for both AC and DC which makes the connector light and sleek. If you think VHS is worse than Betamax, CCS is more worse than Tesla's connector.
- kylecordes 4y ago
  I wonder if 50 years from now we will all still be stuck with the comically awful CCS.
mrzool 4y ago
A good enough standard that works for everyone > dozens of cutting-edge amazing technologies competing with each other and no standardization
ddalex 4y ago
No it doesn't, in the legislation itself there is the provision of how to deal with technological advancements.
apexalpha 4y ago
>It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. you know what's even nicer? Being able to charge your car at any charging station and not just the ones built by your manufacturer. Imagine if you could only fill up your gas tank at specific gas stations that support your tank opening.

itsoktocry 4y ago

>Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually Interesting example. Betamax was technologically superior, but lost out due to marginally higher costs. What makes you think Tesla's connector wouldn't suffer the same fate?

malfist 4y ago

How is tesla's connector nicer?

bin_bash 4y ago
It’s a lot smaller, locks into the car while charging, and doesn’t have an extra flap you have to open when using DC fast charging.
- objclxt 4y ago
  > locks into the car while charging The EU plug locks into the car while charging. Not sure why you think it doesn't. There's also no obligation to have an extra flap, my Model 3 does not.
  - thinkindie 4y ago
    I second this. I'm frequently using the volkswagen ID.3 and there is no way to unplug it unless you unlock it from charging station with the card you find it in the car (at least in Berlin).
- malfist 4y ago
  Do those small improvement justify fragmentation of standards?
- amluto 4y ago
  The locking feature is misguided. There should absolutely be a mechanical interlock to prevent unplugging under load. But no key should be required to unplug a home charger, and no key should be needed to plug in a charger once the charge port is open. As I see it, the only security goals should be: 1. At a public charger, one should have to authenticate to _either_ the car or the charger to interrupt an active charging session. 2. When using a portable charger of the sort that is owned by the car’s owner, one should not be able to unplug the charger and thus steal it if one cannot authenticate to the car. And that’s it. You should be able to unplug someone else from a public charger that can reach multiple parking spaces once it finishes charging.
  - IndrekR 4y ago
    And this is exactly how the charging in EU works.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  The CCS2 standard used in Europe and most of the world locks the cable similarly to Tesla. The CCS1 standard locks the cable using a little flap that folds down on top of the CCS1 latch to hold it in place. Its every bit as clumsy as it sounds, but it does mean there is a locked cable. Example CCS1 inlet: http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4910&cHash=f50ba9197ea0b5c98e5739aa2504e43f http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt...
- kylecordes 4y ago
  I can scarcely imagine the shame of an engineer speccing that awful plastic flap on $100,000 car. What do you tell your children?

mrtksn 4y ago

EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, it usually means that you should be involved in the process of making the decisions. Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well unless it's the military. Let's agree to disagree. I like that the car plugs are the same everywhere in EU and want it to stay that way and enjoy the Tesla plugs on a trip to USA.

ericmay 4y ago
> EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. In the short term, yes. In the long term however competition between these different standards will cause consolidation and overall technology improvement. The next step will be regulating wireless charging so that all devices have to use/do the same thing, rinse-wash-repeat. > Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well unless it's the military. Let's agree to disagree. A better way to think about this is that both "groups" can learn from one another. For example you could say that Europeans should be suspicious about USB-C manufacturers and advocates effectively being granted a monopoly in the name of convenience. Americans should better trust that certainly in the case of infrastructure it makes sense to have a single standard "plug" for electric vehicles because we really need as many people driving them as possible in the most convenient way.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  We can copy the US if the cable freedom gives birth to superior cables on the long run. EU stuff is't written on stone, it changes as it needs to. I guess In Europe we kind of like the idea of being able to overthrow the people in power if they screw us too much. It's much more socially acceptable to burn cars and occupy streets and decapitate politicians than shooting CEO's when you are really not happy with the way things work. It feels like you have control over the stuff going on in your country.

agloeregrets 4y ago

On the other hand, companies building wholly proprietary infrastructure is just pure e-waste on the back of the citizens of those countries that ALSO limits innovation. Imagine a world where Ford cars use a different gas nozzle from a GM product in the US. The average person would have to pick and choose stations and if one were to go out of business, the lesser standard would encounter mass disposal and retrofit, all on the backs of consumers. The intent with these products is generally not innovation...it is lock in and licensing fees. The EU law in case here has a committee that reviews the standard yearly and accepts proposals.

treis 4y ago
>The average person would have to pick and choose stations Stations would just have two nozzles on their pumps.
- isignal 4y ago
  What if Ford operates their own stations? Would they still have two plugs? (see: Tesla superchargers)
  - Fernicia 4y ago
    This is pure legislation-brain worry about things that markets resolve.
- delecti 4y ago
  Well, three, because diesel pump nozzles are already a different standard.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Well, eight, because you'd have two each for diesel and each of the three octanes.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago

aiisjustanif 4y ago

Imagine if we had this outlook towards plugs in houses in the US. Standardization is underrated.

kube-system 4y ago
Funny, because all of North America uses the NEMA standard and the EU uses a bunch of different plugs.
- rand49an 4y ago
  Probably why they are more conscious it's a problem then.
  - pmyteh 4y ago
    Yeah. The rollout of domestic wiring standards was pre-EU, and dealing with the entrenched incompatible standardisation gets in the way of the EU goal of a single market in goods and services. They really don't want more arbitrary standards that vary nationally. Of course, that's not quite the same as the laptop charger question where the fragmentation is between companies and less entrenched. But still.
- krzyk 4y ago
  No, EU uses a single plug, it is called "Type C" (no, not USB-C). What you might find in some poorer regions in EU is old plugs that were there pre-EU, or prestandardization. I can say that, because Brexit happened, I have no clue what those were thinking when designing their own gigantic plug.
  - troad 4y ago
    This is just not true. Denmark and Italy use their own plugs; Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus use the British plug; and the heart of the EU is divided between French-style and Schuko plugs. (Switzerland, though outside the EU, also uses its own plugs.) As I understand it, EU moves to standardise plugs failed in the 90s.

mattmoose21 4y ago

Having a car manufacturer dictate where you plug in is bad, actually.

ARandumGuy 4y ago

Sure, the Tesla connector is smaller, and a little sleeker. But from a functionality perspective, the plug types are basically identical. Both allow AC standard charging and DC fast charging. Electric cables aren't that complicated.

chroma 4y ago
Compared to CCS, Tesla made a ton of smart decisions with their charging setup: - All Teslas have their charging ports at the rear left side. This means that charging cables can be very short. Longer cables would cause tangles, cost more, and be harder to cool. - Tesla's protocol has built-in payment. You plug in and charge. With CCS it varies. Sometimes you use a credit card. Sometimes you download a mobile app and sign up for some account. Sometimes the planets align and CCS's plug-and-charge works. - The CCS plug is much bigger. If you look at the connector sizes[1] or adapters[2], the CSS plug is comically huge. Tesla had to redesign the tail lights on the Model S/X to fit CCS Combo 2 ports. - Every exposed contact is a potential failure point, and CCS exposes more contacts than Tesla's charging port. - CCS has two different plug dimensions which are used in different regions, so a European CCS vehicle brought to North America will need an adapter (and vice-versa). - If your vehicle only supports AC charging, you cannot charge with CCS Combo plugs. They won't fit. Since some Teslas were made before the CCS Combo standard took off, older Model S/X's used a CCS Type 2 port. So now every Supercharger in Europe has two plugs: CCS Type 2 & Combo 2.[3] 1. https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... 2. https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2021/ccs-adapter.jpg https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2021/ccs-adapter.jp... 3. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eu-tesla-supercharger-dual-cable-outlet-iec-type-2-notched-ccs-combo-2.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eu-tesla-supercharge...
- arlcode 4y ago
  Several of your points don't have anything to do with CSS and are simply costs of having multiple competing brands on the markets who need to use the same infrastructure (real estate is a very limited resource in many areas). - Older X/S were never that numerous and shouldn't hold up the vast majority of the population. First movers disadvantage if you like. - Moving vehicles across the Atlantic is also a tiny tiny use case and already difficult as is.

gwbas1c 4y ago

> Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually. They didn't make the decision. It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace. > Tesla's connector is nicer Tesla's system only goes up to 400 volts. CCS goes up to 800 volts. The higher voltage supports faster charging. (This is similar to Betamax's critical flaw. The smaller, more elegant Betamax tape compared to the clunky VHS tape meant that VHS could record 6 hours on a tape when Betamax was limited to about 3.5 hours on a tape. It also meant that feature length films were often recorded at slower tape speeds, thus meaning that prerecorded VHS tapes were often a better quality than the Betamax version.)

theluketaylor 4y ago
CCS spec limits are actually 1000V and 500A. Electrify America uses 350A units, hence the 350 kW chargers (1000V x 350A). Lucid battery packs are 924V to maximize CCS capability. DC Fast charging has to match pack voltage, so with 400ish volt pack voltage Tesla gets big charging speed by providing extreme amperage. CCS is limited to 500A, so the best way to provide really fast charging is higher pack voltages. Higher voltage does have some benefits around heat and losses, but also has downsides like cost of electronics and installations over 600V generally require special electrical licensing. It's hard to deny the tesla connector is a lot nicer to work with (especially V3 with thin, liquid cooled cables), but I still wish my model 3 sr+ had CCS like euro cars. I'd love to be able to have more charging options.
_ea1k 4y ago
I'm not sure that Tesla's connector is a limiting element there. The Tesla system can also go to higher amperages than CCS, which is an advantage. For example, the F150 Lightning charging rate is hampered by its 400 volt CCS system. It can't do more than 200kw. That's creating a lot of the pressure to move to 800 volt. Tesla doesn't have a similar limitation and can do 250-300kw on the existing 400-450V cars.
orangecat 4y ago
It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace. Or like 1996 when Apple was failing and everyone should have been forced to standardize on Windows.

taylodl 4y ago

Different countries already have many different rules for autos. That's why it's difficult to be a world-wide auto manufacturer: you have to comply with so many different rules from different countries. That's just the cost of doing business and has been for decades. If Apple believes USB-C is really that bad (which I don't think they do) - then they have the option of creating a handset only for sale in Europe or they can remove all charging ports and go wireless charging. I bet they go with USB-C charging and wireless charging.

_ea1k 4y ago

> Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) I like the Tesla connector in the US, but in Europe, I'd argue that CCS2 is objectively superior. They need 3-phase power support and the Tesla connector doesn't support that. They also use a different CCS connector from the US. The CCS2 connector uses a latching mechanism that is similar to the proprietary Tesla one. Its simple and very reliable. The US CCS1 system uses a dual latching mechanism. The cable and the car each have moving parts that are somewhat complicated. The cable side latch is a common failure point. It makes sense, given the desire to retain backward compatiblity with J1772 L1/L2 chargers, but I don't really think that was worth the tradeoff, tbh.

dfox 4y ago
I would say that the IEC 62196-2 used by Tesla in Europe is the most sane EV charging connector design there is. It is standard (albeit in the fast charge mode it is apparently only used by Tesla), the connector is not ridiculously large and the whole mechanical design is derived from industrial power connector that can be used to power entire typical European household.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  Yeah, that one seems really practical to me. I think CCS2 is only slightly worse, with the additional dedicated DC charging pins.

ehsankia 4y ago

I would rather have a shared and slightly less optimal cable, than a unique and "nicer" cable. USB-C is the perfect example, you can argue that lightning cable is actually nicer, but being able to charge all my different devices with a single cable is far nicer. If every company thought like Tesla/Apple, we'd quickly go down a very untenable road.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

It makes sense for cars to have a standard connector so that they may be charged without any problem at any public charging station. After all, there is a standard fuel nozzle for ICE vehicles. On the other hand, this requirement to have an USB-C connector is pretty useless to downright counter-productive as it will indeed prevent innovation. It's just political hand-waving.

moduspol 4y ago

This is the case I try to make to friends and relatives (non-EV owners) who insist that a common plug is a prerequisite to EV ownership. Standardizing against Tesla at any earlier point would have been a gift on a silver platter for legacy auto by slowing EV adoption, and it's Tesla's freedom to innovate that is why we're even having this discussion instead of theoretical questions about what EVs might be like in the future. I usually tell them to let Tesla solve the remaining edge cases (semis, trailer hauling, and charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups) before we start regulating. Setting things in stone now would be like standardizing on DSL as the only last-mile broadband in 2004. We don't want to do that.

bonzini 4y ago
> charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups That's just impossible. Filling a 100 kWh "tank" in one minute requires 6 MW of power, plus all the power that goes into heat. The only solution would be replacing batteries on the fly but Tesla discontinued it. Moving stuff is inherently faster than chemical reactions (unless you're talking about explosions).
- moduspol 4y ago
  It doesn't have to be equivalent. Just being comparable from a user experience and business case perspective would be enough. Getting it down to five minutes to fill to 80% may be sufficient. Right now it's 15-20 minutes.
  - bonzini 4y ago
    The problem is not just the time to charge a single car but the capacity in cars/hour. First, if a car takes five times longer to charge, you need a lot more space to cover the needs for peak days. This may not be a problem on highways (or in the US) but space in Europe is much more limited. Second, a smallish 6-pump filling station serves 150-200 cars per hour. An equivalent charging station would need 12-15 MW which means working at 40 kV. Dealing with peak days is easy for filling stations, you just request gasoline trucks more frequently. For charging stations you need to build infrastructure that might hardly exist in more rural places, it's the same as sneakernet vs broadband.

diffeomorphism 4y ago

> If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where... Your crystal ball seems broken. You could have said the exact same thing about micro-usb for phone chargers, yet somehow we ended up in the present. Hint: Your supposed critical flaw is incredibly obvious. So either everyone but you is an idiot or just maybe the people making laws have thought of that too...

dreamcompiler 4y ago

I's absolutely true that Tesla's EV connector is better than CCS, and it's a pity that Tesla lost that battle. But it's also true that USB-C with PD is better than the alternatives in its space so occasionally the committees get things right.

phkahler 4y ago
>> I's absolutely true that Tesla's EV connector is better than CCS, and it's a pity that Tesla lost that battle. Currently working at a company that makes CCS chargers. Can confirm the standard is an absolute shit show, the cables are heavy, and the plugs are a giant pain in the ass. But hey, it's the standard so that's what we make. Oh, and why TF do we have a PowerLine Communication chip to talk to the vehicle over (non-power) signal wires? A few CAN messages would have done the job. One of the stupidest communication standards ever.
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  Tesla's connector uses CAN over signal wires, and it uses the same power pins for both AC and DC which makes the connector light and sleek. If you think VHS is worse than Betamax, CCS is more worse than Tesla's connector.
kylecordes 4y ago
I wonder if 50 years from now we will all still be stuck with the comically awful CCS.

mrzool 4y ago

A good enough standard that works for everyone > dozens of cutting-edge amazing technologies competing with each other and no standardization

ddalex 4y ago

No it doesn't, in the legislation itself there is the provision of how to deal with technological advancements.

apexalpha 4y ago

>It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. you know what's even nicer? Being able to charge your car at any charging station and not just the ones built by your manufacturer. Imagine if you could only fill up your gas tank at specific gas stations that support your tank opening.