7 ms·

In Algeria, ancient cave art may show psychedelic mushroom use

77 points by prismatic 4y ago

poulpy123 4y ago
I sometimes have the feeling that people read too much in this kind of things.
- feet 4y ago
  Or its just evidence that humans have been using these compounds for eons, contrary to what the clowns in government seem to think
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    There is so much evidence across all of humanity's history, mushrooms, Ayahuasca, peyote, etc. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21893367/#:~:text=Olmec%2C%20Zapotec%2C%20Maya%20and%20Aztec,and%20lysergic%20acid%20amide%2C%20respectively https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21893367/#:~:text=Olmec%2C%2.... And also - if you were an ancient human wouldn't you? (Use them) I would.
asdff 4y ago
Ancient peoples likely consumed everything seemingly edible they came across. Imagine how profound an experience would be taking a hallucinogen as an ancient person, with no explanations for how anything of that experience might of worked. It really seems plausible that an experience like this could lead to entire belief systems of thought, especially during this time when no one knew what a psychedelic trip was or how to place that experience in any context. It wouldn't be hard to imagine entire cultures springing up around these drugs back then. After all, entire cultures have sprung up around these drugs in modern times.
- radus 4y ago
  To those interested in the history of human consumption of hallucinogens I can't recommend this book enough: The Immortality Key.
- allemagne 4y ago
  Not to totally disagree, but while the first psychedelic trips would be extremely confusing and profound to the first person who experienced them with no knowledge, prehistoric humans would already have a baseline understanding of altered states of consciousness (dreams, extreme emotional states, other drugs like alcohol).
  - dontbenebby 4y ago
    >Not to totally disagree, but while the first psychedelic trips would be extremely confusing and profound to the first person who experienced them with no knowledge Very few things are truly magic, and finding out if an experience is truly unique is as close you can get to a miracle in an age of smartphones with multi megapixel cameras and high quality audio mics in the hands of vast swathes of the populace. But I'm speaking from the perspective of a WEIRD guy[1] -- they seem to be considering dropping the D here in the USA :/ [1] https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Weird_People_BBS_final02.pdf https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Weird_People_BBS_fin...
  - asdff 4y ago
    The things you list other than perhaps dreams don't have an intense visual component like a psychadelic mushroom trip. Faces in tree bark, fractals in clouds, hues shifting, breathing textures are all typical features of a trip. Its a confusing enough experience even for modern users who knowingly take mushrooms being aware exactly what they are and what is coming.
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  >Ancient peoples likely consumed everything seemingly edible they came across. And they traveled much more slowly, so I'd expect that what is now Algerians may have had many folks in parallel eat things, die, not what didn't kill them, etc. The real issue seems to be that some folks take things that used to be taken once a year or less on a much regular basis. For example, I met someone who was native american. I don't recall which tribe. But they told me that tobacco used to be more akin to how some folks who are Italian will only drink once a year at Christmas. I've also noticed a sunk costs phenomenon related to the prison industrial complex: if your freedom depends on following a treatment program, and the treatment program doen't allow you healthy choices, then sometimes they'll double down on unhealthy behaviors. (For example, you can drink alcohol on a Friday and clear it out of your system Monday, but be a violent jerk for those two days your parole officer is not at work, versus smoking a joint in a park on a Saturday morning, then sitting silently in a corner with your wifi off sorting the nature photos you took, having burned as many or more calories as you would in a gym walking around taking them.) I've yet to sample psilocybin[1] in a good set and setting -- both times I compromised on that due to sourcing issues. The first time cleared my depression, but that "depressive realism" stayed with me. The second, my home was unclean and triggering my allergies, and when I tried to go out for a walk, folks I encountered did not help the matter. (I've met people in a variety of contexts like a party at hacker conference, bar patio, or attending a lecture at the Federal Trade Commission's offices at Constitution Center, and I'd always just try to ask if they needed water or an escort to safety, let them know I (at the time) had a script for 0.5 aloprazolam pills, and encourage them to avoid alcohol for a few hours so if the trip gets worse they can safely take a benzo. But to be clear, I have zero medical training. I'm just a mid 30s hacker who wants people to stop making bad decisions, and will (figuratively) bend over backwards to assist that if people try to minimize their impact on others. :-) The Dutch "smart shops" had a good idea in that they rate the strength of the dose, and sell truffles so it's harder to take a bunch at once. They did a similar thing with edibles -- they sold pound cakes, which are less appetizing to eat multiple of than brownies, along with being lower glycemic. Unfortunately I made the terrible calculus to not book a single room, so I ended up wandering the Red Light district on a bad trip. They're very tolerant, but at the end of the day, it's a business district and if you're "just admiring the neon" they're going to get annoyed even if you're not taking photos. I did a walking tour during the day, which was immensely educational, but you really need to go through at night to see the neon, though I strongly suggest finding a partner, even if it's someone who seems halfway sane from the hostel bar. Just pray they don't have a midlife crisis during the walk and try to make out with you after telling you their spouse is involved with a conference you've attended for a decade, or you'll wish you'd just downed 1.5mg of alprazolam on little to no tolerance and went to sleep for 16 hours. [1] Erowid is a good resource for dosages etc but double check what you read there https://erowid.org/chemicals/psilocybin/psilocybin.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/psilocybin/psilocybin.shtml
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > might of might have*
dr_dshiv 4y ago
There is zero literary evidence from Ancient Greek, Latin, Assyrian or Chinese sources. Meaning: it was a long-standing taboo by then.
- bergenty 4y ago
- begueradj 4y ago
  Or maybe for them, it's like drinking water, no interest for them to talk about something they consume "naturally"
  - voltaireodactyl 4y ago
    I’m open to this idea, but they talk about alcohol plenty which would suggest it’s not the case.
- vadansky 4y ago
  The book "The Road to Eleusis" has some proof, obviously it's a biased interpretation but it's still interesting to consider.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    Road to Eleusis is convincing. But it is about ergot rot on barley, not psilocybin mushrooms which grow naturally all over Europe.
- TremendousJudge 4y ago
  Literary canons are not everything that was ever written, only what people decided was valuable to keep copying. Until more durable parchment and paper were introduced, everything on Europe was written on papyrus, which quickly decays on more humid weather and has to be continuously maintained by copying. It's possible that it was written about, but wasn't a super popular topic in the intervening time and the texts didn't reach us.
begueradj 4y ago
That's just an interpretation of the some of the paintings. Interpretations are a very subjective assessment and change over time. For instance, the same paintings are interpreted as representations of extra terrestrial creatures.
- TremendousJudge 4y ago
  A big difference is that we know for a fact that psychedelic mushrooms were around back then -- they didn't spring into existence in the last couple thousand years.
  - vladimir929 4y ago
    Sure but rock art is extremely extremely hard to interpret. The foremost world experts in it. Do not make such claims. Unless there was a mushroom literally found at the site how can a serious person make such a bold claim. (Even if a mushroom or proof of its usage was found nearby. Rock art specialists have found that dating rock art by the surrounding context is not the correct technique. As newer methodology has found that the surrounding context can lead to dating thousands of years off. It’s best to date the art directly)
    - TremendousJudge 4y ago
      I'm not saying that this should be thought of as the only interpretation, only that it seems more likely than "aliens". And in the pictures provided by the article, one of them clearly depicts mushrooms
    - formerkrogemp 4y ago
      It's not like we can find fossilized shrooms that easily. They decompose things as part of their food source just as they in turn decompose things. I grow shrooms, and they don't have a shelf life for more than 3-12 days depending upon the variety of edible if they're not dried out. Reishi notwithstanding.
- pvaldes 4y ago
zvmaz 4y ago
I'm Algerian. Note that if you want to go to certain places in Algeria, you have to be escorted by the police.
- uwagar 4y ago
  the desert looks awesome. for everyone? or just tourists are escorted?
  - Off 4y ago
    Foreign tourists are always escorted by gendarmes in those places, especially when it shares borders with Libya. Local tourists can visit but some places require an escort.
vladimir929 4y ago
TL;DR you cannot attribute this rock art to mushrooms. Rock art specialists will say that interpreting rock art is extremely hard and should be done with caution. When even the foremost experts have been completely wrong when taking their interpretations of rock art to the indigenous peoples that had their meanings passed down.
- JetAlone 4y ago
  There's absolutely some eisegesis going on. The shroomer story is sexy, also politically convenient.
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
Yeah man... I don't know. That's kind of a just-so story you have there. But Joe Rogan would love it!
pvaldes 4y ago
The mushrooms in the figure masked as some ungulate are the hands, maybe shaped like hoofs, or any other ornament. The people "levitating high" are clearly swimming in an age when Sahara was covered with lakes. I don't see anything suggesting mushroom use in the pictures, I see another victim of publish (anything) or perish. But people will see what they want to see, of course. And to prove it wouldn't be difficult. If you paint something in presence of fungi, the spores will be everywhere and fuse with the paint. Each spore has a different shape and size, so you could even guess the family or genus. No spores or spores of other species? don't make us lose our time. Spores over the painting? recent times. The images would represent any other thing. But if they find ancient spores under the layers of painting, (or traces of it as bubbles in the pigment), and are of the shape and size correct, the theory would start having any support at least. In the giant I see a foetus dead, with a small figure next that has a suspiciously round belly.
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
  >The mushrooms in the figure masked as some ungulate are the hands, maybe shaped like hoofs That would explain the bottom two but it doesn't the top two. The alternative is to take it more literally and see them as attached to the upper arm and upper thigh. I'm also not overwhelmingly convinced that they represent mushrooms though.
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    You're right, there is a second set. Maybe feathers then?
zephrx1111 4y ago
I don’t take it as an excuse for legalizing drug use.

77 points by prismatic 4y ago

poulpy123 4y ago

I sometimes have the feeling that people read too much in this kind of things.

feet 4y ago
Or its just evidence that humans have been using these compounds for eons, contrary to what the clowns in government seem to think
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  There is so much evidence across all of humanity's history, mushrooms, Ayahuasca, peyote, etc. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21893367/#:~:text=Olmec%2C%20Zapotec%2C%20Maya%20and%20Aztec,and%20lysergic%20acid%20amide%2C%20respectively https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21893367/#:~:text=Olmec%2C%2.... And also - if you were an ancient human wouldn't you? (Use them) I would.

asdff 4y ago

Ancient peoples likely consumed everything seemingly edible they came across. Imagine how profound an experience would be taking a hallucinogen as an ancient person, with no explanations for how anything of that experience might of worked. It really seems plausible that an experience like this could lead to entire belief systems of thought, especially during this time when no one knew what a psychedelic trip was or how to place that experience in any context. It wouldn't be hard to imagine entire cultures springing up around these drugs back then. After all, entire cultures have sprung up around these drugs in modern times.

radus 4y ago
To those interested in the history of human consumption of hallucinogens I can't recommend this book enough: The Immortality Key.
allemagne 4y ago
Not to totally disagree, but while the first psychedelic trips would be extremely confusing and profound to the first person who experienced them with no knowledge, prehistoric humans would already have a baseline understanding of altered states of consciousness (dreams, extreme emotional states, other drugs like alcohol).
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  >Not to totally disagree, but while the first psychedelic trips would be extremely confusing and profound to the first person who experienced them with no knowledge Very few things are truly magic, and finding out if an experience is truly unique is as close you can get to a miracle in an age of smartphones with multi megapixel cameras and high quality audio mics in the hands of vast swathes of the populace. But I'm speaking from the perspective of a WEIRD guy[1] -- they seem to be considering dropping the D here in the USA :/ [1] https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Weird_People_BBS_final02.pdf https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Weird_People_BBS_fin...
- asdff 4y ago
  The things you list other than perhaps dreams don't have an intense visual component like a psychadelic mushroom trip. Faces in tree bark, fractals in clouds, hues shifting, breathing textures are all typical features of a trip. Its a confusing enough experience even for modern users who knowingly take mushrooms being aware exactly what they are and what is coming.
dontbenebby 4y ago
>Ancient peoples likely consumed everything seemingly edible they came across. And they traveled much more slowly, so I'd expect that what is now Algerians may have had many folks in parallel eat things, die, not what didn't kill them, etc. The real issue seems to be that some folks take things that used to be taken once a year or less on a much regular basis. For example, I met someone who was native american. I don't recall which tribe. But they told me that tobacco used to be more akin to how some folks who are Italian will only drink once a year at Christmas. I've also noticed a sunk costs phenomenon related to the prison industrial complex: if your freedom depends on following a treatment program, and the treatment program doen't allow you healthy choices, then sometimes they'll double down on unhealthy behaviors. (For example, you can drink alcohol on a Friday and clear it out of your system Monday, but be a violent jerk for those two days your parole officer is not at work, versus smoking a joint in a park on a Saturday morning, then sitting silently in a corner with your wifi off sorting the nature photos you took, having burned as many or more calories as you would in a gym walking around taking them.) I've yet to sample psilocybin[1] in a good set and setting -- both times I compromised on that due to sourcing issues. The first time cleared my depression, but that "depressive realism" stayed with me. The second, my home was unclean and triggering my allergies, and when I tried to go out for a walk, folks I encountered did not help the matter. (I've met people in a variety of contexts like a party at hacker conference, bar patio, or attending a lecture at the Federal Trade Commission's offices at Constitution Center, and I'd always just try to ask if they needed water or an escort to safety, let them know I (at the time) had a script for 0.5 aloprazolam pills, and encourage them to avoid alcohol for a few hours so if the trip gets worse they can safely take a benzo. But to be clear, I have zero medical training. I'm just a mid 30s hacker who wants people to stop making bad decisions, and will (figuratively) bend over backwards to assist that if people try to minimize their impact on others. :-) The Dutch "smart shops" had a good idea in that they rate the strength of the dose, and sell truffles so it's harder to take a bunch at once. They did a similar thing with edibles -- they sold pound cakes, which are less appetizing to eat multiple of than brownies, along with being lower glycemic. Unfortunately I made the terrible calculus to not book a single room, so I ended up wandering the Red Light district on a bad trip. They're very tolerant, but at the end of the day, it's a business district and if you're "just admiring the neon" they're going to get annoyed even if you're not taking photos. I did a walking tour during the day, which was immensely educational, but you really need to go through at night to see the neon, though I strongly suggest finding a partner, even if it's someone who seems halfway sane from the hostel bar. Just pray they don't have a midlife crisis during the walk and try to make out with you after telling you their spouse is involved with a conference you've attended for a decade, or you'll wish you'd just downed 1.5mg of alprazolam on little to no tolerance and went to sleep for 16 hours. [1] Erowid is a good resource for dosages etc but double check what you read there https://erowid.org/chemicals/psilocybin/psilocybin.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/psilocybin/psilocybin.shtml
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
guerrilla 4y ago
> might of might have*

dr_dshiv 4y ago

There is zero literary evidence from Ancient Greek, Latin, Assyrian or Chinese sources. Meaning: it was a long-standing taboo by then.

bergenty 4y ago
begueradj 4y ago
Or maybe for them, it's like drinking water, no interest for them to talk about something they consume "naturally"
- voltaireodactyl 4y ago
  I’m open to this idea, but they talk about alcohol plenty which would suggest it’s not the case.
vadansky 4y ago
The book "The Road to Eleusis" has some proof, obviously it's a biased interpretation but it's still interesting to consider.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Road to Eleusis is convincing. But it is about ergot rot on barley, not psilocybin mushrooms which grow naturally all over Europe.
TremendousJudge 4y ago
Literary canons are not everything that was ever written, only what people decided was valuable to keep copying. Until more durable parchment and paper were introduced, everything on Europe was written on papyrus, which quickly decays on more humid weather and has to be continuously maintained by copying. It's possible that it was written about, but wasn't a super popular topic in the intervening time and the texts didn't reach us.

begueradj 4y ago

That's just an interpretation of the some of the paintings. Interpretations are a very subjective assessment and change over time. For instance, the same paintings are interpreted as representations of extra terrestrial creatures.

TremendousJudge 4y ago
A big difference is that we know for a fact that psychedelic mushrooms were around back then -- they didn't spring into existence in the last couple thousand years.
- vladimir929 4y ago
  Sure but rock art is extremely extremely hard to interpret. The foremost world experts in it. Do not make such claims. Unless there was a mushroom literally found at the site how can a serious person make such a bold claim. (Even if a mushroom or proof of its usage was found nearby. Rock art specialists have found that dating rock art by the surrounding context is not the correct technique. As newer methodology has found that the surrounding context can lead to dating thousands of years off. It’s best to date the art directly)
  - TremendousJudge 4y ago
    I'm not saying that this should be thought of as the only interpretation, only that it seems more likely than "aliens". And in the pictures provided by the article, one of them clearly depicts mushrooms
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    It's not like we can find fossilized shrooms that easily. They decompose things as part of their food source just as they in turn decompose things. I grow shrooms, and they don't have a shelf life for more than 3-12 days depending upon the variety of edible if they're not dried out. Reishi notwithstanding.
pvaldes 4y ago

zvmaz 4y ago

I'm Algerian. Note that if you want to go to certain places in Algeria, you have to be escorted by the police.

uwagar 4y ago
the desert looks awesome. for everyone? or just tourists are escorted?
- Off 4y ago
  Foreign tourists are always escorted by gendarmes in those places, especially when it shares borders with Libya. Local tourists can visit but some places require an escort.

vladimir929 4y ago

TL;DR you cannot attribute this rock art to mushrooms. Rock art specialists will say that interpreting rock art is extremely hard and should be done with caution. When even the foremost experts have been completely wrong when taking their interpretations of rock art to the indigenous peoples that had their meanings passed down.

JetAlone 4y ago
There's absolutely some eisegesis going on. The shroomer story is sexy, also politically convenient.

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

Yeah man... I don't know. That's kind of a just-so story you have there. But Joe Rogan would love it!

pvaldes 4y ago

The mushrooms in the figure masked as some ungulate are the hands, maybe shaped like hoofs, or any other ornament. The people "levitating high" are clearly swimming in an age when Sahara was covered with lakes. I don't see anything suggesting mushroom use in the pictures, I see another victim of publish (anything) or perish. But people will see what they want to see, of course. And to prove it wouldn't be difficult. If you paint something in presence of fungi, the spores will be everywhere and fuse with the paint. Each spore has a different shape and size, so you could even guess the family or genus. No spores or spores of other species? don't make us lose our time. Spores over the painting? recent times. The images would represent any other thing. But if they find ancient spores under the layers of painting, (or traces of it as bubbles in the pigment), and are of the shape and size correct, the theory would start having any support at least. In the giant I see a foetus dead, with a small figure next that has a suspiciously round belly.

Enginerrrd 4y ago
>The mushrooms in the figure masked as some ungulate are the hands, maybe shaped like hoofs That would explain the bottom two but it doesn't the top two. The alternative is to take it more literally and see them as attached to the upper arm and upper thigh. I'm also not overwhelmingly convinced that they represent mushrooms though.
- pvaldes 4y ago
  You're right, there is a second set. Maybe feathers then?

zephrx1111 4y ago

I don’t take it as an excuse for legalizing drug use.