7 ms·

I would like to point out, that regardless of your feelings for either person Jobs or Stallman, both is/was very smart people, and what they say/do we should pa

I would like to point out, that regardless of your feelings for either person Jobs or Stallman, both is/was very smart people, and what they say/do we should pay attention to. Stallman is right about Jobs' legacy. iOS devices prevent installation of any GPL software. This is blatantly wrong. Most innovations within the last 20 years came from OSS developers creating incredible techniques used by Apple/MS/etc, yet this is being attacked. The shoulders of giants analogy perfectly applies. Except OSS developers don't get patents, the thiefs of OSS do. Unlike Jobs, Stallman's view of the world is towards freedom and I respect him for walking the walk, he is not filthy rich and that is because he does not exploit people. He definitely has views and attitudes that are unpopular, such as his views on reproduction BUT none of those ever take choice away from people, nor do they ever take any freedom away from people. His prediction of the patent war is true. Look at patents today. MS is taking royalties from 50% of android sales. Apple is preventing sales of tablets because they have round corners and the approximate shape of an iPad, and Intellectual Ventures is getting ready to obliterate companies. The legacy of Steve Jobs is anti-freedom.

kmavm 15y ago
"Most innovations within the last 20 years came from OSS developers creating incredible techniques used by Apple/MS/etc..." Name one. To take some examples I happen to have first-hand intimacy with: Linux is both original and good, but the original parts are frequently not good, and the good parts are clones of Solaris. Touchscreen happened in iOS first. Modern virtualization happened in VMware's closed-source base first. Modern information retrieval is still a proprietary Google secret. The most important counter-examples I can think of are languages. The "everything is a hash table" descendants of Perl and javascript (in which I include Python, Ruby, and PHP) would not have been viable as commercial products. That said, even javascript began life as a Netscape proprietary implementation, and Perl is mostly a synthesis of ideas present in ksh.
- colanderman 15y ago
  Touchscreen happened in iOS first. What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Zaurus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Zaurus is just one counterexample of many.
  - kmavm 15y ago
    "Touchscreen that civilians care about."
    - rfrey 15y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman
  - nirvana 15y ago
    That is not a touchscreen. That is a stylus driven OS. Much like the Newton, which preceded it.
    - vacri 15y ago
      Finger-responsive touchscreens were around long before Apple used them - they were just generally larger than the iphone. Surely you must have seen them somewhere, from museum displays to fast-food cash registers.
      - nirvana 15y ago
        The iPhone is not a "finger responsive touch screen". These screens are really easy to make-- they have a grid of sense lines and can tell if there's a finger at the intersection of two of them. They are completely confused if two fingers touch the screen at the same time. What the iPhone does is map the entire shape of a finger, as well as many other fingers, touching the screen to determine how many fingers, what orientation, etc. This is completely different. That you and others claim they are the same shows the frank dishonesty at the core of the anti-innovation crowd here on hacker news. I'm at a loss for the motivation of anti-innovation people to hang out on an ostensibly startup oriented site, but you have succeeded in ruining it.
- MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
  Do not lump PHP with Python and Ruby. It is incredibly rude and betrays a lack of understanding about the pedigree of these languages. Python predates JavaScript by nearly half a decade. Perl's big inspirations were sed, grep, and awk, not ksh, according to Larry Wall. However, there is no reason that Larry might not have known about ksh, and it's entirely possible that he was thinking of ksh when he implemented Perl.
  - kmavm 15y ago
    I work on a PHP compiler and runtime for a living, so I'm reasonably familiar with its past, present and future. While Ruby and Python are superior in many ways, these three languages (and Perl and JS) have much more in common than they do separating them: Algol syntax, runtime typing, hash-table like duck-typed objects, automatic memory management, some half-baked (for all but JS) concessions to functional style, etc. If you consider them in a world that includes C++, Haskell, Prolog, x64 assembly, Smalltalk, and Lisp, all of these languages form an incredibly tight cluster in the configuration space. And granting for the sake of argument that Larry Wall wasn't thinking of ksh, sed, grep and awk were just as AT&T proprietary as ksh was.
    - MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
      Ruby and Python have strong types, no automatic coercion besides numeric promotion, customizable and extensible type models, the ability to create new first-class types, a complete type system, dynamic attribute and method dispatch; these things are not in the flavors of ECMAScript used in browsers and Node, to the point where there is no "class" keyword, or an equivalent, in JS. I object to Ruby and Python being lumped with JS mostly on account of features, and additionally because JS does not occupy the same systems-programming niche that Ruby and Python can easily fill. (And some companies, like Google, would not permit Ruby and Python to be grouped, nor Python with C++ and Java.) Edit: Nevermind, you're right. I concede.
    - loup-vaillant 15y ago
      > cluster in the configuration space 10 bits of evidence that you read LessWrong. (Sorry, couldn't help it.)
- sagarm 15y ago
  VMware was probably based on M Rosenblum's graduate work on SimOS, which was GPL. If it's fair to call Perl "mostly a synthesis ideas present in ksh," I think it would also be fair to call Mac OSX "BSD plus a display server driven by postscript and a UI written in Objective C."
  - kmavm 15y ago
    > VMware was probably based on M Rosenblum's graduate work on SimOS, which was GPL. I worked on VMware's virtual machine monitor from 2000 to 2009. Mendel's students' work on SimOS had nothing at all to do with VMware, full-stop; SimOS was just a full-system simulator, useful for measurement and educational purposes, which has almost nothing to do with virtualization. The research system of Mendel's that did influence VMware's founding was Disco[0], a virtual machine monitor for SGI's MIPS machines. But the technique Disco used (trap-and-emulate) was inapplicable on x86, and in fact there was peer-reviewed literature claiming the x86 was impossible to virtualize[1]. VMware's first six years of products were instead based on dynamic binary translation; we incrementally recompiled the privileged x86 guest into unprivileged x86 code, in much the same way modern JVMs incrementally compile Java bytecodes into native machine instructions. Our source base was 100% VMware proprietary, and had to be since no open source project was trying anything remotely related at the time. [0] http://www-flash.stanford.edu/~bugnion/Disco/sosp-html/ http://www-flash.stanford.edu/~bugnion/Disco/sosp-html/ [1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1251316&dl=ACM&coll=portal http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1251316&dl=ACM&col....
  - protomyth 15y ago
    About as fair as calling an Indy Car a Buckboard with an engine instead of a horse. Perl and OS X are quite a bit more.
- kingkilr 15y ago
  Python is in no sense an everything-is-a-hashtable language.
  - laughinghan 15y ago
    "The default behavior for attribute access is to get, set, or delete the attribute from an object’s dictionary. For instance, a.x has a lookup chain starting with a.__dict__['x'], then type(a).__dict__['x'], and continuing through the base classes of type(a) excluding metaclasses." http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#invoking-descriptors http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#invoking-des...
- Peaker 15y ago
  * rpm, dpkg, apt-get finally killed dll hell * Various UI improvements: customizable panel widgets, multi-desktop pagers, .. * git and other dvcs's * qemu (virtualization through dynamic recompilation) * gcc extensions * gdb: reversible debugging More?
- gujk 15y ago
  Touchscreen was invented in a government funded university research lab, not iOS.
nirvana 15y ago
" iOS devices prevent installation of any GPL software." In what way? It is the GPL that prevents GPL software from being distributed via the App Store. Frankly, I see no reason why it should be a problem, as the binary distributed that way could easily link to a web page with the source.... but I remember a bunch of "Free" software types raising a stink when someone uploaded a GPLed App. Apple doesn't care, so long as it isn't using private APIs, or stealing users data, or contain malware, etc. You guys never seem to give Apple honest credit for what it does. For instance, before the App Store, independant software developers could not get apps on mobile devices, because the carriers controlled the ecosystem. Apple opened it up and made it a level playing field and now there are hundreds of startups targeting the mobile device market. Google didn't do that, Google just copied it. It was Apple that used its clout to force the carriers to accept the AppStore.
- Daishiman 15y ago
  There is no reason why you should even have to ask Apple to install software on a device you own. iOS is a jail operating system.
  - nirvana 15y ago
    I install whatever software I want on my iPhone, and I don't have to ask Apple before I do it. I can install software with any license I want- apache, GPL, whatever. And I haven't jailbroken my phone. You're shifting the goalposts. Stallman is complaining about the AppStore which is where Apple sells software and Apple chooses not to sell pornography. That's their choice. Any consumer, with an iPhone that is not jailbroken, can install whatever software they want, provided it is written in HTML and javascript. The iPhone is a totally open, standards based, host, and Apple exercises no control over it. You can even go visit porn sites. Further, Apple has worked to make this platform a first rate citizen in its operating system. HTML/Javascript Apps can be installed, added to the home screen, can have local data, and can run when there is no network connection, and they can do absolutely whatever you want.
    - Daishiman 15y ago

kmavm 15y ago

"Most innovations within the last 20 years came from OSS developers creating incredible techniques used by Apple/MS/etc..." Name one. To take some examples I happen to have first-hand intimacy with: Linux is both original and good, but the original parts are frequently not good, and the good parts are clones of Solaris. Touchscreen happened in iOS first. Modern virtualization happened in VMware's closed-source base first. Modern information retrieval is still a proprietary Google secret. The most important counter-examples I can think of are languages. The "everything is a hash table" descendants of Perl and javascript (in which I include Python, Ruby, and PHP) would not have been viable as commercial products. That said, even javascript began life as a Netscape proprietary implementation, and Perl is mostly a synthesis of ideas present in ksh.

colanderman 15y ago
Touchscreen happened in iOS first. What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Zaurus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Zaurus is just one counterexample of many.
- kmavm 15y ago
  "Touchscreen that civilians care about."
  - rfrey 15y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman
- nirvana 15y ago
  That is not a touchscreen. That is a stylus driven OS. Much like the Newton, which preceded it.
  - vacri 15y ago
    Finger-responsive touchscreens were around long before Apple used them - they were just generally larger than the iphone. Surely you must have seen them somewhere, from museum displays to fast-food cash registers.
    - nirvana 15y ago
      The iPhone is not a "finger responsive touch screen". These screens are really easy to make-- they have a grid of sense lines and can tell if there's a finger at the intersection of two of them. They are completely confused if two fingers touch the screen at the same time. What the iPhone does is map the entire shape of a finger, as well as many other fingers, touching the screen to determine how many fingers, what orientation, etc. This is completely different. That you and others claim they are the same shows the frank dishonesty at the core of the anti-innovation crowd here on hacker news. I'm at a loss for the motivation of anti-innovation people to hang out on an ostensibly startup oriented site, but you have succeeded in ruining it.
MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
Do not lump PHP with Python and Ruby. It is incredibly rude and betrays a lack of understanding about the pedigree of these languages. Python predates JavaScript by nearly half a decade. Perl's big inspirations were sed, grep, and awk, not ksh, according to Larry Wall. However, there is no reason that Larry might not have known about ksh, and it's entirely possible that he was thinking of ksh when he implemented Perl.
- kmavm 15y ago
  I work on a PHP compiler and runtime for a living, so I'm reasonably familiar with its past, present and future. While Ruby and Python are superior in many ways, these three languages (and Perl and JS) have much more in common than they do separating them: Algol syntax, runtime typing, hash-table like duck-typed objects, automatic memory management, some half-baked (for all but JS) concessions to functional style, etc. If you consider them in a world that includes C++, Haskell, Prolog, x64 assembly, Smalltalk, and Lisp, all of these languages form an incredibly tight cluster in the configuration space. And granting for the sake of argument that Larry Wall wasn't thinking of ksh, sed, grep and awk were just as AT&T proprietary as ksh was.
  - MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
    Ruby and Python have strong types, no automatic coercion besides numeric promotion, customizable and extensible type models, the ability to create new first-class types, a complete type system, dynamic attribute and method dispatch; these things are not in the flavors of ECMAScript used in browsers and Node, to the point where there is no "class" keyword, or an equivalent, in JS. I object to Ruby and Python being lumped with JS mostly on account of features, and additionally because JS does not occupy the same systems-programming niche that Ruby and Python can easily fill. (And some companies, like Google, would not permit Ruby and Python to be grouped, nor Python with C++ and Java.) Edit: Nevermind, you're right. I concede.
  - loup-vaillant 15y ago
    > cluster in the configuration space 10 bits of evidence that you read LessWrong. (Sorry, couldn't help it.)
sagarm 15y ago
VMware was probably based on M Rosenblum's graduate work on SimOS, which was GPL. If it's fair to call Perl "mostly a synthesis ideas present in ksh," I think it would also be fair to call Mac OSX "BSD plus a display server driven by postscript and a UI written in Objective C."
- kmavm 15y ago
  > VMware was probably based on M Rosenblum's graduate work on SimOS, which was GPL. I worked on VMware's virtual machine monitor from 2000 to 2009. Mendel's students' work on SimOS had nothing at all to do with VMware, full-stop; SimOS was just a full-system simulator, useful for measurement and educational purposes, which has almost nothing to do with virtualization. The research system of Mendel's that did influence VMware's founding was Disco[0], a virtual machine monitor for SGI's MIPS machines. But the technique Disco used (trap-and-emulate) was inapplicable on x86, and in fact there was peer-reviewed literature claiming the x86 was impossible to virtualize[1]. VMware's first six years of products were instead based on dynamic binary translation; we incrementally recompiled the privileged x86 guest into unprivileged x86 code, in much the same way modern JVMs incrementally compile Java bytecodes into native machine instructions. Our source base was 100% VMware proprietary, and had to be since no open source project was trying anything remotely related at the time. [0] http://www-flash.stanford.edu/~bugnion/Disco/sosp-html/ http://www-flash.stanford.edu/~bugnion/Disco/sosp-html/ [1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1251316&dl=ACM&coll=portal http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1251316&dl=ACM&col....
- protomyth 15y ago
  About as fair as calling an Indy Car a Buckboard with an engine instead of a horse. Perl and OS X are quite a bit more.
kingkilr 15y ago
Python is in no sense an everything-is-a-hashtable language.
- laughinghan 15y ago
  "The default behavior for attribute access is to get, set, or delete the attribute from an object’s dictionary. For instance, a.x has a lookup chain starting with a.__dict__['x'], then type(a).__dict__['x'], and continuing through the base classes of type(a) excluding metaclasses." http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#invoking-descriptors http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#invoking-des...
Peaker 15y ago
* rpm, dpkg, apt-get finally killed dll hell * Various UI improvements: customizable panel widgets, multi-desktop pagers, .. * git and other dvcs's * qemu (virtualization through dynamic recompilation) * gcc extensions * gdb: reversible debugging More?
gujk 15y ago
Touchscreen was invented in a government funded university research lab, not iOS.

nirvana 15y ago

" iOS devices prevent installation of any GPL software." In what way? It is the GPL that prevents GPL software from being distributed via the App Store. Frankly, I see no reason why it should be a problem, as the binary distributed that way could easily link to a web page with the source.... but I remember a bunch of "Free" software types raising a stink when someone uploaded a GPLed App. Apple doesn't care, so long as it isn't using private APIs, or stealing users data, or contain malware, etc. You guys never seem to give Apple honest credit for what it does. For instance, before the App Store, independant software developers could not get apps on mobile devices, because the carriers controlled the ecosystem. Apple opened it up and made it a level playing field and now there are hundreds of startups targeting the mobile device market. Google didn't do that, Google just copied it. It was Apple that used its clout to force the carriers to accept the AppStore.

Daishiman 15y ago
There is no reason why you should even have to ask Apple to install software on a device you own. iOS is a jail operating system.
- nirvana 15y ago
  I install whatever software I want on my iPhone, and I don't have to ask Apple before I do it. I can install software with any license I want- apache, GPL, whatever. And I haven't jailbroken my phone. You're shifting the goalposts. Stallman is complaining about the AppStore which is where Apple sells software and Apple chooses not to sell pornography. That's their choice. Any consumer, with an iPhone that is not jailbroken, can install whatever software they want, provided it is written in HTML and javascript. The iPhone is a totally open, standards based, host, and Apple exercises no control over it. You can even go visit porn sites. Further, Apple has worked to make this platform a first rate citizen in its operating system. HTML/Javascript Apps can be installed, added to the home screen, can have local data, and can run when there is no network connection, and they can do absolutely whatever you want.
  - Daishiman 15y ago