23 ms·

It's very interesting to think the processor releases were holding back the Mac for so long. They are on the cusp on turning Macs into annual upgrades - with me

It's very interesting to think the processor releases were holding back the Mac for so long. They are on the cusp on turning Macs into annual upgrades - with meaningful performance upgrades tied to the OS, just like they've done for a decade with the A series / iOS releases. This is firing on all cylinders. The organizational structure and performance is a marvel for this.

smoldesu 4y ago
Counterpoint: M2 is a tock release, not a tick. This is pretty much the same behavior that ended up getting Intel shot in the foot: leaning too heavily on marginal performance increases from process enhancement will bite you in the butt when your competitors get their tech on your node. Intel and AMD are both going to be on 5nm in 2023, Apple should be pretty worried if this is what they're fighting with. 3nm isn't even getting taped off until 2024 AFAIK, so this really does feel like Apple's "Skylake" moment, as far as desktop CPU architecture is concerned.
- nojito 4y ago
  Only because it’s a COVID year.
- 7speter 4y ago
  My understanding is that AMD coasts behind Apple’s process progress at tsmc, seeing as Apple invests the bulk of resources into tsmc’s cutting edge nodes. If apple hits a wall, well so does everyone else depending on the fruits of their r and d. Also, if Intel can keep up this time, and if tsmc/apple slouches, I wonder if there will be Apple silicon and Intel x86-64/risc macs/apppe devices on available simultaneously?
- dmix 4y ago
  Apple doesn't really have to worry about competition too much for a long time, even if Intel and AMD get comparable watt/power levels for laptops, Apple isn't going to be using them for their products anytime soon. And people using Macbooks aren't likely to switch to Windows/Linux machines, even if there is a 20% better CPU. But really we've only had 2.5 released cycles so far. Not much to go by.
  - arcticfox 4y ago
    I might be a very small minority but I'd personally switch back to Linux in an instant if there was something comparable to the M series hardware
    - markmark 4y ago
      I'm considering getting an M2 Air even though I very much don't like OSX.
    - sliken 4y ago
      Asahi linux has most things working, except the accelerated GPU. Just in the last week or so a triangle was rendered, so progress is has been made. Sadly while apple has 128 bit wide memory on the low end (66-100GB/sec on the mac mini and mba), 256 bit wide (200GB/sec), 512 bits wide (400GB/sec), and 1024 bits wide (800GB/sec). Nothing wider than 128 bits looks to be coming to standard laptops or desktops in the non-apple world. I don't really count HEDT chips like the threadripper pro, since they are very expensive and very limited, and burn many 100s of watts.
      - criddell 4y ago
        Asahi Linux is, for me, the most interesting thing going on in Linux these days.
        sliken 4y ago
        Agreed. I'd likely have a studio today if the GPU port worked, but unless it comes out RSN I'd likely wait for the M2 based studio to come out. The chip has other magic inside as well. I'm hoping Linux continues to implement support for the MatMul instruction (not just vector multiplies), 16 trillion op neural engine, various encode/decode video accelerators, etc. I've heard vague references to compressed swap to help make the most of limited ram (m1 limit was 16GB).
        dmix 4y ago
        What package manager/distro will Asahi Linux be using/basing off of?
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  Spend a few minutes talking with someone who designs hardware. Often when they release something, there are TONs of incremental improvements that they just didn't have time to get to when a new product is released. I remember having a conversation with someone who worked on hard drives in the 80s. He got so ^%$^$# excited telling me about all the improvements he worked on between generations; they were mostly things like tighter calibrations, and refinements. Point being: Don't knock releases like this.
  - FullyFunctional 4y ago
    Indeed, that "18%" improvement is almost certainly made up of very many 1% improvements (or more likely, many improvements that each only makes difference in some scenarios).
    - reaperducer 4y ago
      that "18%" improvement is almost certainly made up of very many 1% improvements My guess is 18 of them.
      - _ea1k 4y ago
        I'd guess 17, but I guess it depends on whether they compound. :)
        welfare 4y ago
        Ah, the old synergy effect, a corporate executive's best friend.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    This comment sounds like the exact same hopium I heard about Intel in 2016. I get what you're saying, and there are definitely smaller changes packed in here, but my point is that Apple's performance crown is looking mighty easy to usurp right about now. Hell, they even showed a graph with the i7 1280p beating the M2's single-core performance by ~20% at the WWDC today; they know they're on notice.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  M2 has a media engine, which was previously reserved for the higher end versions. Considering that M1 was already an overkill for the most tasks, I think it is a meaningful "tok" upgrade. Besides, I kind of expect the trend of ASIC to continue. Instead of having more extreme and extreme lithography, it kind of feels more appropriate to have computation specific developments.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  AMD recently teased a ~15% single threaded performance increase for Zen4 when they will move from TSMC 7nm to TSMC 5nm. Apple just teased ~18% CPU increase while staying on TSMC 5nm. Sounds like they are doing just fine.
  - seritools 4y ago
    AMD stated >15%, not ~15%, and this was the worst-case, conservative number, as they have clarified. The increased core frequency alone brings in around that number already. https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_calls_its_zen_4_s_15_single-threaded_uplift_conservative_and_their_5_5ghz_clock_speeds_very_easy/1 https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_calls_its_zen...
  - fyzix 4y ago
    That 18% is multicore
- drno123 4y ago
  My understanding is that 3nm for Apple is coming in 2023. https://www.slashgear.com/833760/apples-3nm-processor-is-about-to-become-a-reality/ https://www.slashgear.com/833760/apples-3nm-processor-is-abo...
  - Reason077 4y ago
    Coming in 2022 for the iPhone 14 Pro line.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
samstave 4y ago
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Apple's whole thing is simplicity/"just works". Modular designs are pretty much the opposite of that. They've been proven right too. The vast majority of people don't want to slot in their own parts.
  - bogwog 4y ago
    > They've been proven right too. The vast majority of people don't want to slot in their own parts. How have they been “proven right”? Correlation is not causation. Just because they’re highly successful and they ship integrated components doesn’t mean the two are related.
    - deltaonefour 4y ago
      What has been proven is that consumers don't care about customization too much. If they want it, they don't want it that much.
      - bogwog 4y ago
        How has that been "proven"? If your argument is that people are still buying Macs despite the lack of customization, well that's ignoring the state of the market. Most consumers only have two choices (Mac or Windows), and oftentimes it comes down to familiarity with one OS over the other, rather than any specific features or merits of the actual product. If Apple released a "customizable" Mac, or one that could be upgraded like a standard PC, do you believe that would sell poorly? I highly doubt it.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        It's not univariate, but if the software outweighs hardware modularity then that's useful information.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> It's very interesting to think the processor releases were holding back the Mac for so long. Apple also made a huge leap forward with their cooling designs. Making the laptop thicker and investing in proper cooling design made a huge difference. My M1 laptop is significantly quieter than my old Intel laptop at the same power consumption level. It’s not even close. Apple’s last generation chassis and cooling solution were relatively terrible, which makes the new M1 feel even more impressive by comparison.
- edgefield 4y ago
  100% agree. The last generation of MacBook pros with intel processors were virtually unusable for zoom calls or any intensive processing power tasks.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Companies always solve their own problems first. Apple uses WebEx, which is probably the most piggy of the videoconferencing solutions that I use in terms of cpu and memory.
  - furyg3 4y ago
    This is downvoted, but my intel MacBook Pro (maxed out specs) from 2015 really was dying on zoom / MS teams calls. Probably says a lot about those two apps, but this was one of the main reasons I upgraded to an M1 Mac during corona.
    - drcongo 4y ago
      I'd forgotten, because I've had an M1 Pro for a while now, but Slack video calls on my last gen, maxed out Intel MBP could heat the thing enough to burn through to the earth's core.
    - theodric 4y ago
      Yeah, same, that's why I resorted to water-cooling :) https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-i-water-cooled-my-macbook-pro.2290339/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-i-water-cooled-my-ma... It's pretty much silent now, even with the CPU governor pegged to max.
xattt 4y ago
What would dripping the ball look like at this point in the game? Mediocre annual upgrades?
- catach 4y ago
  I would expect that even mediocre annual upgrades wouldn't actually be a short-term business failure, as the vast bulk of sales are probably 3+ year upgrades. It would be a marketing failure though, and sustained would translate into a longer-term business failure.
seabriez 4y ago
LMAO yeah 8 GB - 256 Laptop for $1200 is "killing it;" duping consumers definitely from day 1.
- babypuncher 4y ago
  Go find an x86 laptop that gets the same performance and battery life in a similar form factor for less than $1200
  - seabriez 4y ago
    You really have to ask? Because why? You live in an Apple world before Google search has existed because Apple hasn't invented search yet right? Also it's $1500; because no one wants a laptop in a 8 / 256 configuration, no one; it's just there for money extraction purposes. HP Spectre Laptop Computer 13.5" WUXGA+ Touch Screen Intel Core i7 16 GB memory; Count the number of ways it's better and cheaper. https://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-Spectre-Laptop-Computer-13-5-WUXGA-Touch-Screen-Intel-Core-i7-16-GB-memory/807466961?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101001325&&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9033256&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=129379948&wl11=online&wl12=807466961&veh=sem&gclsrc=ds https://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-Spectre-Laptop-Computer-13-5-W...
    - mdm_ 4y ago
      Anecdata here, but I owned an HP Spectre 360 laptop a few years ago and I would never buy another HP laptop again. It cost almost as much as a Macbook, and within ~2 years of gentle use, mostly around the house, it blew a speaker, the webcam developed a purple tint, the rubber strips on the base peeled off, and when I tried to open the case to check for a second M.2 slot, one of the Torx screws stripped and remains stuck.
      - seabriez 4y ago
        M1 Air (especially) has been having screen issues too, including tinting; I've personally witnessed it. I think HP did become really bad around 2012, but they've really picked up their game lately. I've seen some great HP laptops, but you don't need to go with HP. There are even cheaper laptops that are slightly less powerful but still great for what they are capable of.
antipaul 4y ago
"The organizational structure and performance is a marvel for this." Totally agree, plus Sirouji, who seems like a modern day wizard
danielscrubs 4y ago
On the software side things have gone so much worse though. You have the Swift compiler that uses heuristics which makes it unreliable (a compiler that times out!), and even Apples most basic software seems to crash constantly. If you have a budget Intel MacBook the compiling time are horrendous. Just yesterday the Contacts app on macOS crashed for me. I think Rosetta + Swift + SwiftUI might have been a bit much change for the developers at Apple and the users are now paying the price. I hope they focus on some principles behind stable software next.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > …even Apples most basic software seems to crash constantly. Just yesterday the Contacts app on macOS crashed for me. This is also anecdotal with a sample size of one, but I can't recall experiencing Apple app stability issues in recent Monterey releases on an M1 Air. It may be worth digging into crash logs. https://macreports.com/crash-reports-how-to-use-them-to-troubleshoot-why-your-mac-crashed/ https://macreports.com/crash-reports-how-to-use-them-to-trou...
- filchermcurr 4y ago
  I made the mistake of opening Maps on Monterey a couple versions back. Instant kernel panic. (For fun, just tested in 12.4 and it works again!) Most of my problems these days are with their bluetooth drivers, though. Anything with a bluetooth connection randomly reconnects throughout the day. Most annoying with the mouse and magic trackpad. (And while I appreciate suggestions, future posters, it still happens after a clean install / nvram clear, so it's unlikely to be configuration related).

smoldesu 4y ago

Counterpoint: M2 is a tock release, not a tick. This is pretty much the same behavior that ended up getting Intel shot in the foot: leaning too heavily on marginal performance increases from process enhancement will bite you in the butt when your competitors get their tech on your node. Intel and AMD are both going to be on 5nm in 2023, Apple should be pretty worried if this is what they're fighting with. 3nm isn't even getting taped off until 2024 AFAIK, so this really does feel like Apple's "Skylake" moment, as far as desktop CPU architecture is concerned.

nojito 4y ago
Only because it’s a COVID year.
7speter 4y ago
My understanding is that AMD coasts behind Apple’s process progress at tsmc, seeing as Apple invests the bulk of resources into tsmc’s cutting edge nodes. If apple hits a wall, well so does everyone else depending on the fruits of their r and d. Also, if Intel can keep up this time, and if tsmc/apple slouches, I wonder if there will be Apple silicon and Intel x86-64/risc macs/apppe devices on available simultaneously?
dmix 4y ago
Apple doesn't really have to worry about competition too much for a long time, even if Intel and AMD get comparable watt/power levels for laptops, Apple isn't going to be using them for their products anytime soon. And people using Macbooks aren't likely to switch to Windows/Linux machines, even if there is a 20% better CPU. But really we've only had 2.5 released cycles so far. Not much to go by.
- arcticfox 4y ago
  I might be a very small minority but I'd personally switch back to Linux in an instant if there was something comparable to the M series hardware
  - markmark 4y ago
    I'm considering getting an M2 Air even though I very much don't like OSX.
  - sliken 4y ago
    Asahi linux has most things working, except the accelerated GPU. Just in the last week or so a triangle was rendered, so progress is has been made. Sadly while apple has 128 bit wide memory on the low end (66-100GB/sec on the mac mini and mba), 256 bit wide (200GB/sec), 512 bits wide (400GB/sec), and 1024 bits wide (800GB/sec). Nothing wider than 128 bits looks to be coming to standard laptops or desktops in the non-apple world. I don't really count HEDT chips like the threadripper pro, since they are very expensive and very limited, and burn many 100s of watts.
    - criddell 4y ago
      Asahi Linux is, for me, the most interesting thing going on in Linux these days.
      - sliken 4y ago
        Agreed. I'd likely have a studio today if the GPU port worked, but unless it comes out RSN I'd likely wait for the M2 based studio to come out. The chip has other magic inside as well. I'm hoping Linux continues to implement support for the MatMul instruction (not just vector multiplies), 16 trillion op neural engine, various encode/decode video accelerators, etc. I've heard vague references to compressed swap to help make the most of limited ram (m1 limit was 16GB).
      - dmix 4y ago
        What package manager/distro will Asahi Linux be using/basing off of?
gwbas1c 4y ago
Spend a few minutes talking with someone who designs hardware. Often when they release something, there are TONs of incremental improvements that they just didn't have time to get to when a new product is released. I remember having a conversation with someone who worked on hard drives in the 80s. He got so ^%$^$# excited telling me about all the improvements he worked on between generations; they were mostly things like tighter calibrations, and refinements. Point being: Don't knock releases like this.
- FullyFunctional 4y ago
  Indeed, that "18%" improvement is almost certainly made up of very many 1% improvements (or more likely, many improvements that each only makes difference in some scenarios).
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    that "18%" improvement is almost certainly made up of very many 1% improvements My guess is 18 of them.
    - _ea1k 4y ago
      I'd guess 17, but I guess it depends on whether they compound. :)
      - welfare 4y ago
        Ah, the old synergy effect, a corporate executive's best friend.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  This comment sounds like the exact same hopium I heard about Intel in 2016. I get what you're saying, and there are definitely smaller changes packed in here, but my point is that Apple's performance crown is looking mighty easy to usurp right about now. Hell, they even showed a graph with the i7 1280p beating the M2's single-core performance by ~20% at the WWDC today; they know they're on notice.
mrtksn 4y ago
M2 has a media engine, which was previously reserved for the higher end versions. Considering that M1 was already an overkill for the most tasks, I think it is a meaningful "tok" upgrade. Besides, I kind of expect the trend of ASIC to continue. Instead of having more extreme and extreme lithography, it kind of feels more appropriate to have computation specific developments.
GeekyBear 4y ago
AMD recently teased a ~15% single threaded performance increase for Zen4 when they will move from TSMC 7nm to TSMC 5nm. Apple just teased ~18% CPU increase while staying on TSMC 5nm. Sounds like they are doing just fine.
- seritools 4y ago
  AMD stated >15%, not ~15%, and this was the worst-case, conservative number, as they have clarified. The increased core frequency alone brings in around that number already. https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_calls_its_zen_4_s_15_single-threaded_uplift_conservative_and_their_5_5ghz_clock_speeds_very_easy/1 https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_calls_its_zen...
- fyzix 4y ago
  That 18% is multicore
drno123 4y ago
My understanding is that 3nm for Apple is coming in 2023. https://www.slashgear.com/833760/apples-3nm-processor-is-about-to-become-a-reality/ https://www.slashgear.com/833760/apples-3nm-processor-is-abo...
- Reason077 4y ago
  Coming in 2022 for the iPhone 14 Pro line.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

samstave 4y ago

colinmhayes 4y ago
Apple's whole thing is simplicity/"just works". Modular designs are pretty much the opposite of that. They've been proven right too. The vast majority of people don't want to slot in their own parts.
- bogwog 4y ago
  > They've been proven right too. The vast majority of people don't want to slot in their own parts. How have they been “proven right”? Correlation is not causation. Just because they’re highly successful and they ship integrated components doesn’t mean the two are related.
  - deltaonefour 4y ago
    What has been proven is that consumers don't care about customization too much. If they want it, they don't want it that much.
    - bogwog 4y ago
      How has that been "proven"? If your argument is that people are still buying Macs despite the lack of customization, well that's ignoring the state of the market. Most consumers only have two choices (Mac or Windows), and oftentimes it comes down to familiarity with one OS over the other, rather than any specific features or merits of the actual product. If Apple released a "customizable" Mac, or one that could be upgraded like a standard PC, do you believe that would sell poorly? I highly doubt it.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        It's not univariate, but if the software outweighs hardware modularity then that's useful information.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> It's very interesting to think the processor releases were holding back the Mac for so long. Apple also made a huge leap forward with their cooling designs. Making the laptop thicker and investing in proper cooling design made a huge difference. My M1 laptop is significantly quieter than my old Intel laptop at the same power consumption level. It’s not even close. Apple’s last generation chassis and cooling solution were relatively terrible, which makes the new M1 feel even more impressive by comparison.

edgefield 4y ago
100% agree. The last generation of MacBook pros with intel processors were virtually unusable for zoom calls or any intensive processing power tasks.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Companies always solve their own problems first. Apple uses WebEx, which is probably the most piggy of the videoconferencing solutions that I use in terms of cpu and memory.
- furyg3 4y ago
  This is downvoted, but my intel MacBook Pro (maxed out specs) from 2015 really was dying on zoom / MS teams calls. Probably says a lot about those two apps, but this was one of the main reasons I upgraded to an M1 Mac during corona.
  - drcongo 4y ago
    I'd forgotten, because I've had an M1 Pro for a while now, but Slack video calls on my last gen, maxed out Intel MBP could heat the thing enough to burn through to the earth's core.
  - theodric 4y ago
    Yeah, same, that's why I resorted to water-cooling :) https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-i-water-cooled-my-macbook-pro.2290339/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-i-water-cooled-my-ma... It's pretty much silent now, even with the CPU governor pegged to max.

xattt 4y ago

What would dripping the ball look like at this point in the game? Mediocre annual upgrades?

catach 4y ago
I would expect that even mediocre annual upgrades wouldn't actually be a short-term business failure, as the vast bulk of sales are probably 3+ year upgrades. It would be a marketing failure though, and sustained would translate into a longer-term business failure.

seabriez 4y ago

LMAO yeah 8 GB - 256 Laptop for $1200 is "killing it;" duping consumers definitely from day 1.

babypuncher 4y ago
Go find an x86 laptop that gets the same performance and battery life in a similar form factor for less than $1200
- seabriez 4y ago
  You really have to ask? Because why? You live in an Apple world before Google search has existed because Apple hasn't invented search yet right? Also it's $1500; because no one wants a laptop in a 8 / 256 configuration, no one; it's just there for money extraction purposes. HP Spectre Laptop Computer 13.5" WUXGA+ Touch Screen Intel Core i7 16 GB memory; Count the number of ways it's better and cheaper. https://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-Spectre-Laptop-Computer-13-5-WUXGA-Touch-Screen-Intel-Core-i7-16-GB-memory/807466961?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101001325&&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9033256&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=129379948&wl11=online&wl12=807466961&veh=sem&gclsrc=ds https://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-Spectre-Laptop-Computer-13-5-W...
  - mdm_ 4y ago
    Anecdata here, but I owned an HP Spectre 360 laptop a few years ago and I would never buy another HP laptop again. It cost almost as much as a Macbook, and within ~2 years of gentle use, mostly around the house, it blew a speaker, the webcam developed a purple tint, the rubber strips on the base peeled off, and when I tried to open the case to check for a second M.2 slot, one of the Torx screws stripped and remains stuck.
    - seabriez 4y ago
      M1 Air (especially) has been having screen issues too, including tinting; I've personally witnessed it. I think HP did become really bad around 2012, but they've really picked up their game lately. I've seen some great HP laptops, but you don't need to go with HP. There are even cheaper laptops that are slightly less powerful but still great for what they are capable of.

antipaul 4y ago

"The organizational structure and performance is a marvel for this." Totally agree, plus Sirouji, who seems like a modern day wizard

danielscrubs 4y ago

On the software side things have gone so much worse though. You have the Swift compiler that uses heuristics which makes it unreliable (a compiler that times out!), and even Apples most basic software seems to crash constantly. If you have a budget Intel MacBook the compiling time are horrendous. Just yesterday the Contacts app on macOS crashed for me. I think Rosetta + Swift + SwiftUI might have been a bit much change for the developers at Apple and the users are now paying the price. I hope they focus on some principles behind stable software next.

CharlesW 4y ago
> …even Apples most basic software seems to crash constantly. Just yesterday the Contacts app on macOS crashed for me. This is also anecdotal with a sample size of one, but I can't recall experiencing Apple app stability issues in recent Monterey releases on an M1 Air. It may be worth digging into crash logs. https://macreports.com/crash-reports-how-to-use-them-to-troubleshoot-why-your-mac-crashed/ https://macreports.com/crash-reports-how-to-use-them-to-trou...
filchermcurr 4y ago
I made the mistake of opening Maps on Monterey a couple versions back. Instant kernel panic. (For fun, just tested in 12.4 and it works again!) Most of my problems these days are with their bluetooth drivers, though. Anything with a bluetooth connection randomly reconnects throughout the day. Most annoying with the mouse and magic trackpad. (And while I appreciate suggestions, future posters, it still happens after a clean install / nvram clear, so it's unlikely to be configuration related).